barbbanjo - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:01:40

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Problem.....when I capo up to A or D I need to retune even when I was in tune before I put the capo on. Then when I take it off, I need to retune again. Is that normal??? Any advice would be appreciated!

KANINJACK - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:03:54

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I've run into the same issue. I was thinking either I'm putting the capo on too tight or I have a high fret. I'll be watching this post for an answer. Thanks.

Glenn Tate - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:08:14

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Both a capo tightened too tight and high frets will cause your banjo to go out of tune. Place the capo as close to the fret as possible, and just tight enough to keep the strings from buzzing or dead.

miiloo - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:08:41

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Somewhere on your banjo head is the spot for the bridge that makes everything wonderful. I have yet to find the magic spot. I capo, I tune, I uncapo, I tune ........
Milo

eagleisland - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:14:45

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There are a number of different causes for this common problem. Let's start with the easy ones before we start discussing issues with the banjo itself.

The capo should be applied just behind the fret, and with only JUST enough pressure to cleanly stop the strings against it.

That's step one, and if that doesn't help, move to step two: check your capo itself. The sleeve material should be clean and smooth. Capo sleeves wear with use and if yours is worn, that can cause your problem. If you're using a Paige or similar capo, just spin the sleeve so you're dealing with fresh material.

Let us know if that doesn't work better, and we can discuss some of the issues with the banjo that might be causing the problem.

dpete210 - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:17:54

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barbbanjo, Glenn Tate's and eagleisland's suggestion is right on. One thing you should make sure is that you have your bridge placed correctly so the intonation is right on the money. This video clip will show you how to do that if you are not sure how to properly place your bridge.
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...tID=&id=3525
Even with the bridge in the proper place you may have to retune slightly to be right on as you capo up the neck. Unfortunately, you can't avoid retuning when you remove the capo if you have retuned when you moved up the neck, not if you want to be in tune at any rate.

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Edited by - dpete210 on 11/20/2009 15:21:34

steve davis - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:25:17

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If this is your Gibson that pretty much rules out a too high nut,so I would move the bridge toward the tailpiece which will flatten the capoed/fretted notes.

The most common "sharp when capoed" problem is the bridge isn't
close enough to the tailpiece.

No matter what you do,your capoed notes will be more accurate with a compensated bridge,but you can place a straight bridge so that you don't
have to retune when capoing.

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Edited by - steve davis on 11/20/2009 15:29:01

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:37:13

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What type of capo are you using? If you're using a clamp on Kyser type, then you can't adjust it and you may have that problem as long as you are using that type of capo. If that's what you're using, may I suggest you invest in an adjust able capo. I use a Shubb and it will fit not only the first 4 frets but on to the 5th and 7th if you're so inclined. They aren't very expensive and can be purchased online at some of our vendors. Try www.banjostore.com or www.elderly or check out any of the vendors here.

Axeman79 - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:43:52

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Texasbanjo,

What type of Shubb do you have. I'm getting ready to get one and am not quit sure which one to get that will go below the 5th fret. I think the Deluxe will, but there is no clear mention of it on any of the sites that sell it.

Axeman

cosmicbanjo - Posted - 11/20/2009:  16:00:52

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just get a schubb guirar capo--- then you dont have to worry with it being to short!!!

steve davis - Posted - 11/20/2009:  16:02:10

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I have a 20+ year old Shubb regular and it will work antwhere on the neck.
Any Shubb will work above the 5th fret.

banjobilly32 - Posted - 11/20/2009:  16:13:34

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I've been fighting that fight for 60+ years now. I usually have to tune the 5th string ever so slightly when using the capo. I most often just give the offending string or strings a slight tug after I listen to trial picking. If you do it enough and get to know your banjo it becomes easier. It helps if you have a good sense of pitch and good hearing. Don't apply too much pressure to the capo.
Another suggestion is to lift each string from the nut slot and rub some pencil lead in the groove. This helps if you are using de-tuners too. Sometimes strings will hang up slightly, then you find it's lower after you start picking.

klgera - Posted - 11/20/2009:  16:21:57

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Check to see if your notes are sharp (or flat) when you fret the note with your finger, it so, that would tell me that the bridge is needing adjustment, if not, then it is probably the capo.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/20/2009:  17:08:45

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I am with Glenn Tate on this one. If you look from the side at how the string passes under the capo, you will see it bend (sharp). More bend, more out of tune--less bend, closer to being in tune. There are places around and about the fret where just the right pressure will sound in tune. If you also have an Adcock-style 5th string slider (ref home page photo album), then you can jam all night and not fuss with constantly cranking your Schallars. I know there are scoffers, but I've seen it nevertheless.

eMike - Posted - 11/20/2009:  23:25:10

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I've noticed with AMB strings that this is not as much of a problem. I have to tweak the 5th string if I'm going from key of G to something else but the others usually stay in tune.

pasturepicker - Posted - 11/21/2009:  05:03:21

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You can minimize the tuning issues associated with capoing by doing things suggested in this thread but you can't eliminate them. When you apply a capo or even fret a note you are stretching the string. When the string is stretched it goes sharp. The higher the action or the tighter the capo the more the pitch is affected. Proper setup and capo use can help a lot but tuning is still an exercise in compromise.

beegee - Posted - 11/21/2009:  15:21:25

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It's a function of a fretted instrument to be out of tune. The temperament of the scale changes when you change the string length. If you tune every string perfectly by itself, it's gonna sound out of tune in some chord shape or another. Our ears allow us to compromise and we adjust automatically to compensate when we play. If tuning wasn't a constant process, they wouldn't have tuning machines up there on the neck...you'd just use bolts and clamps to set the tuning.

steve davis - Posted - 11/21/2009:  15:27:56

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Pasturepicker says that when you capo or fret a string it goes sharp,but if the bridge is
too close to the tailpiece,when you capo or fret a string it will note flat.

SandyR - Posted - 11/21/2009:  16:22:06

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There is a certain inevitability factor. What banjobilly32 says works best for me:

quote:

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If you do it enough and get to know your banjo it becomes easier. ...Don't apply too much pressure to the capo.

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Pepper Laing - Posted - 11/22/2009:  07:02:45

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Does anyone not have this problem? When I bought my 1st decent banjo which I still play daily it did not have this problem, and never went out of tune, take it out of the case and play. My guitarist tuned way more than me. But since I had a pro set up I`ve had this problem. I also have this on my new banjo I just got. There are so many factors involved that I think this probably can`t be solved by one or even a few adjustments. Probably can`t even 100% solve. Tune away only takes a second.

steve davis - Posted - 11/22/2009:  07:05:36

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I would say you didn't get your money's worth on the pro set up.

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Edited by - steve davis on 11/22/2009 07:06:05

lrbsammyswannabe - Posted - 11/23/2009:  16:48:16

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Same problem here with my Maple Blossom . Except when I capo to B there is no need for re-tuning .

MTBanjo - Posted - 11/24/2009:  06:39:23

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I know with me it's party how well I use the capo. More often than not, I'm still in tune (other than having to retune the 5th, but with rr spikes, there's no way around that), but sometimes I do have to retune a bit. Probably the strings aren't straight under the capo. I'll try pressing my palm down on the strings like GaryB mentioned.

oneoldbanjo - Posted - 11/24/2009:  08:13:57

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I had a banjo that would go out of tune a bunch when I put the capo on - but my other banjos did not. What I found out was that the strings were binding slightly at the nut. When you would tune a string there would be some tension built up between the tuners and the nut - and when the capo was applied it would pull that tension from behind the nut out to the fretboard side of the nut and change the string pitch.

I loosened each string and pulled them one at a time out of the string slot, and then sanded pencil lead (graphite) on a very fine piece of sandpaper, and then dropped dropped a little bit of the graphite into each string grooves in the nut to lubricate the string/nut. The banjo behaved much better from then on and did not go out of tune when installing the capo.

Bassora - Posted - 11/24/2009:  08:14:05

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We have a few banjos and I've noticed that some don't have serious tuning issues (except for the 5th string) when using a capo and some ALWAYS have issues (mild).
Between the weight of the strings and the length of the neck and the necks being made of wood there will always be tuning issues.
Even when we're just playing in the evening, our instruments tell us when there's high humidity or when the air's dry as well as when a big front is coming. Wood responds to atmospheric conditions.
Let's be honest, especially with the narrow gauge strings for old-time & traditional clawhammer playing where we use quite a few different tunings during a session. detuning is part of life. And capos will, shall we say, accentuate some of the detuning.
But it's never been a major problem.
I consider it part of a banjo player's life ... there's a reason for all of the banjo tuning jokes.

still plunking away on the Big Mo
Bassora

dhergert - Posted - 11/24/2009:  09:22:10

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Barbara, it is normal. If you are going to use a capo, expect to need to re-tune when you put it on, and again when you take it off.

Some of us just don't use capos. This requires a good knowledge of your neck and of music theory, but is very do-able. The studio work I do doesn't allow time for, or allow for the sound of, re-tuning between songs, so being able to play without capos is very handy.

The BellyCaster - Posted - 11/24/2009:  17:58:16

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I agree. It is normal. There is no fix. It's not broken. Just touch up the tuning after you put the capo on and after you take it off.

Bruce

mandohead - Posted - 11/29/2009:  11:00:15

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Good call- I just tried the pencil lead shaving trick and while not a 100% it's pretty close

Thanks

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Edited by - mandohead on 11/29/2009 11:03:59

kmcadams - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:11:26

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im trying to learn "Gentle on my mind" i downloaded the tab from the john hartford memorial site.

Its in the key of D - Banjo tuned "Row" - not sure what that means? does this mean change the key from G with or without a capo?

thanks

steve davis - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:18:52

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There is a fix.When I capo my banjo it doesn't go out of tune.
This is because of the way I built my compensated bridge.

I play 2 or 3 sets using Keith tuners and capoing and never retune my banjo all night long.

quote:

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Originally posted by The BellyCaster

I agree. It is normal. There is no fix. It's not broken. Just touch up the tuning after you put the capo on and after you take it off.

Bruce

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FenderBender - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:41:24

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Any one particular string more offensively out of tune that others when you capo?

KI4PRK - Posted - 11/29/2009:  18:02:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by kmcadams

im trying to learn "Gentle on my mind" i downloaded the tab from the john hartford memorial site.

Its in the key of D - Banjo tuned "Row" - not sure what that means? does this mean change the key from G with or without a capo?

thanks

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Sounds like a typo, and is supposed to be "Low", seeing as how John Hartford tuned his banjo quite a bit lower than G. I think it was like E or Eb, maybe even D; I'm not a John Hartford expert.

73, Brennen

beeliner - Posted - 11/30/2009:  10:10:51

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I would suggest using a Paige type capo and adjusting like eagleisland said. Never use a clamp type capo.

sawyer 12 - Posted - 11/30/2009:  23:36:12

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If the bridge is adjusted to the correct position for intonation you can't readjust it for a capo without screwing up the intonation when you remove the capo. Once the bridge is adjusted properly, you should rarely have to move it unless its gets accidentally moved.

If you have high frets then the notes there would be sharp even without a capo, your fingers would be doing the same as the capo.
If the intonation is good everywhere and you put a capo on and it changes the tuning, most of the time it is the capo. In some cases it can even be the strings ..

steve davis - Posted - 12/01/2009:  05:22:27

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If your banjo goes sharp when you put on a capo,the most likely cause is that
the bridge is in the wrong place.
It's usually bridge placement because the bridge isn't fastened down and is easily moved out of position when changing strings, getting bumped or by user experimentation.
I've read responses on using harmonics to adjust the bridge that show confusion in this area.

Cheap capos can be used successfully
Straight bridges can be used successfully
Any banjo's intonation can be improved with a compensated bridge

When other potential causes have been ruled out such as

Nut cut wrong
frets out of place
capo too tight
bad strings...it's almost always the bridge location.
It's just the most common reason.
I always check that first because it's the easiest,quickest thing to correct.

getoutthere - Posted - 12/01/2009:  11:33:07

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I agree with the posts that every time we put on a capo, we're going to pull the instrument out of tune a bit. If you think you're not, maybe you just can't quite hear it, but if you take an electronic tuner and tune your banjo carefully, then capo it up and check the tuning again, you're going to have to make some adjustments.
Guitar players don't seem to have as much of a problem, the instrument is more forgiving, but with a banjo you really hear when it's out of tune (hence the jokes, as others have said). Each instrument will be unique, but you still have to compensate for the fact that you're changing the length of the string and bending it. I have also been told that the Schubb fifth string capo doesn't pull the 5th string out of tune as much as the spikes, but I've tried both (on different banjos and the same one) and find that no matter what, I have to retune a bit. If I'm playing by myself, I might not be as picky as long as the strings are in tune with each other, but if I'm playing in a jam I will always retune, and it's so necessary!
I know of other banjo players that don't bother, either they can't hear it or just can't be bothered, but it's really obvious and it sounds terrible. Please, for the love of the banjo, make sure your instrument is in tune! Everyone will thank you for it, even if they have to sit there and watch you retune for a few seconds.....

steve davis - Posted - 12/01/2009:  11:48:39

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My banjo doesn't go out of tune when I put a capo on.I have a good ear for tuning and retune when necessary.
I can place a straight bridge so that retuning would be optional(not far enough out to bother with).
I stay on with the tuner when I use my compensated bridge.
My notes of my 21st fret G chord are just as right on the tuner as my open G chord notes as are most of the notes all over the neck.
They're not all "0" on the tuner,but you need a tuner to find those that aren't right on.

I don't retune my banjo for days at a time...not because I can't hear well.
It's because the intonation is right on the money.

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Edited by - steve davis on 12/01/2009 11:54:11

PKC - Posted - 01/06/2010:  12:24:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by kmcadams

im trying to learn "Gentle on my mind" i downloaded the tab from the john hartford memorial site.

Its in the key of D - Banjo tuned "Row" - not sure what that means? does this mean change the key from G with or without a capo?

thanks

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PKC - Posted - 01/06/2010:  12:27:37

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I also was confused when I recieved the tab however I tuned to "C" and sounds really good there. Also you can play it in "G" but it does not have feel for how John plays it.