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Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:11:39
Hello, guys!
Well, I have a 2-year-old Stelling Red Fox Deluxe model here...with really low playing hours and was pretty-well pleased with the factory setup as provided by Geoff Stelling himself just prior to shipment.
...I was saving this more spectacular 'Red Fox' for playing out someday, as my Gibson Retro 4...(which sounds GREAT)...is generally my day-to-day practice and 'workhorse' banjo.
But, being a brand-new banjo with nearly 2 years setting (mostly) in the case...and with the factory set-up now somewhat 'diminished' what with time, environment, storage, etc....I'd decided the neck on this Stelling needed a little 'tweaking'...plus a new set of Stelling strings so that I could at last begin to really use her!
Also...I now desired a very slightly lower action on the treble strings, although the fourth and fifth were still quite fine. So I took her in to a local, and well-known stringed instrument tech (whom I have visited for some years now)...as I also own some guitars and he always did fine work...at least up until NOW?!
...He claimed he was quite practiced with servicing banjos and came well-recommended besides. So I took her in without consternation and he had her for about 10 days. Anyway, I got the 'Fox' back last week and I was initially pleased...that is until I played on it for awhile and discovered that my 'mighty Fox' suddenly sounded...mighty SMALL! That is to say...had a MUCH smaller VOICE!
It plays with but little 'bark' and just isn't resonant...especially as you play up the neck. In fact...my Gibson Retro 4 can now pretty-well 'smoke' this Red Fox...and you Stelling owners know full-well...that this is just NOT as it should be!!! As it now stands...I've heard $500 student banjos that sound better and play with more authority than my $5,000 (VERY low-hours) Fox Deluxe! So, what gives here? Surely it can't merely be that the relatively 'low-playing hours'...haven't yet 'allowed this beast to 'open-up'???
I've read from someone on The Banjo Hangout who mentions that 'Alan Munde' recommends setting the tailpiece on the Red Fox banjos "UP as high as possible". Anyway, what does this 'tailpiece UP' imply? (I wonder if this might be a factor as the tech may have readjusted the tailpiece during his ministrations???)
The banjo, as it is now...is quite playable...but it just sounds so 'dead'. Increasingly muted and plunky...especially as you play up the neck after about the fourth or fifth fret. This 'Fox' now has little resonance and sounds so thin and weak...a Red Fox with almost no 'bark', thin treble and very little low-end 'growl'. And this one has the Tony Pass rim, no less!
I would surely be appreciative of any of you 'Stelling guys'...specifically you Red Fox owners who can offer any seasoned insight or explain what this "tailpiece UP to maximize tone" adjustment thing is all about, as I struggle to gain an understanding as to what has happened to my banjo. 'Cause she formerly did sound MUCH better after I initially took delivery from Geoff Stelling!
A final word as I appeal to fellow Stelling owners for more 'experienced' input here. As you probably can tell...I am no expert banjo adjuster and have no real training or hands-on experience in setting these complex instruments up...other than to set the head tension, keep the beast in tune and change the strings!!!
(So, having mentioned THAT)...thanks in advance, fellas...for whatever advice you might kindly offer!
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 19:25:57
David Ward - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:21:38
Hello, How low is the action set. Tailpiece should be about 1/4th inch off the head. Is the head tight enough. It's hard to tell you exactly unless we have some measurements. The bow in the neck should be about 1/8th inch from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the 1st string. If your action is to low you will loose alot of volume. Good luck.
MikeM - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:25:21
Well, if your set up man didnt change out any of the parts, it sounds like a simple matter of adjustment. Look on the Stelling web site for set up instructions and maybe go back to a factory setting.You also have the option of sending it back to Stelling and have them set it up for you, with your personal input. Depends on your skill level and confidence. Geoff is mighty easy to talk to and simply a phone call away!
Good luck on your project!
beegee - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:26:50
I don't think there's any way to second-guess what's been done to your banjo or what to do to fix it, because we don't know how it sounded before and how its sounds now. There's no magic to setting up a banjo. Sometimes we confuse experience and intution with magic. It's pretty much start with the known and eliminate the variables. I set up a Stelling Sunflower last year that sounded absolutely wonderful to my ear. I have never been a big Stelling fan, but this one was a winner.
First thing I'd check is head tension or to see if the head is broken. A head that has pulled from the mounting hoop will sound as you describe. If the head is not broken then you need to decide at what tension it's happiest. If the bridge is the same, and the head and strings are also, then you have to consider the coordinator rod tightness and neck angle and the tailpiece adjustment. The rods need to be holding the neck securely to the pot, but too much tension across the pot can do funny things to the rim shape and the sound. You have to have a systems approach with all parts in equilibrium.
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:36:24
Thanks, guys! The head tension was set to 'G' by the tech...(although I had requested 'G#'.)
... I am suspecting that he may indeed have set the action a little TOO low, however and I pray that he did not file the treble side of the Stelling bridge saddle to do this?!
The neck bow appears about normal and the Tech claims that it was set correctly. Incidentally...I had left Geoff Stellling's own note page per suggested set-up inside the case pocket for this Tech's assistance and he was made aware of this when I left him with the instrument!
Now, I am beginning to suspect that this guy was not in actuality, familiar with the 'fine points' of Stelling banjos after all...although I might add that he has previously, always perfomed exemplary work for me on my guitars and basses.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 21:49:11
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:41:23
P.S. More 'measurements' to follow here shortly, guys!
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:06:09
OK...the Tailpiece measures 3/8" above the head...as measured at both sides of the tailpiece, nearest the bridge and as measured from the head to the very bottom edges of the tailpiece!
Neck Bow...measures at approx. 1/32" overall, according to my best estimation!
String Action...measures out to be 3/32" at the FIRST string and 3/32" at the FOURTH string. The FIFTH or drone string is at 1/16" above the 12th fret. (Please Note...all measurements taken from crown of the 12th fret to the lowest edge of each string, above this fret!)
...Guys, would I be correct in suspecting that the 'issue' resides with these dimensions as being...'out of spec'???
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 22:08:18
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:12:20
One final note...head inspected and found to be absolutely in pristine condition, tension being uniformly set and tuned to an audible and solid 'G'.
Again...would I be on track in assuming that the optimum performance for the 'Red Fox' is to have the head tuned to 'G#'...(which I have several times noted, as being mentioned on this site?)
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 21:30:51
gottasmilealot - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:26:49
If it were me, I'd increase the head tension to the A range, set the tail piece a little higher than parallel to the head and adjust your tail piece from there. Make sure the tech didn't put a lower bridge on it.
Here's Stelling's info: http://www.stellingbanjo.com/setup.htm
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:34:28
Many thanks for your counsel, fellas!
No, the bridge is the original as mounted by Geoff. It does not appear to have had its bases filed...nor otherwise to have been tampered with.
...Perhaps someone can offer more insight as per the existing, exact measurements which I have already posted here.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 20:52:33
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:50:28
Well, I've already determined to alter the head tension...and I'm leaning to 'G#' initially...(but might go to 'A' if that does not offer the desired 'projection'.) For the moment...I am a little concerned that tension setting to 'A' might be TOO drastic...offering excessive treble emphasis and decreasing my 4th string 'growl'. I'm aware that I will just have to try these tension settings 'incrementally' and examine the results! Naturally, being at 'G' as it presently is...I will proceed to 'G#' and collate results from there.
FIRST however...I suspect that the 'string height' and 'tailpiece adjustment' will require tweaking, pending further commentary from fellow Stelling owners and based on my previously-supplied measurements per your requests.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 21:26:16
gdoc - Posted - 11/19/2009: 21:19:49
Hi
When I first got my Stelling, it had a very soft sound, and it was almost a year before it "opened up"... and then it screamed like a raped ape.
For my sound preference, I used the drum-torque wrench and set it at about 5.
My tail piece was paralle to the head. On the hoop there are a couple dimples that the tail piece sets into (a couple screws on the tailpiece).. you might check to make sure the tail piece is there.
Play the daylights out of it, that's what I did.
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 21:24:20
I am going to wait and see what you fellas suggest during the upcoming weekend. Although unskilled...I greatly prefer to try and remedy this myself...if I am able to...or find someone locally in the Chicagoland area who is competent with Stelling instruments! Thus far, I have found that it is (surprisingly for such a large metropolitan area)...exheedingly difficult to locate and secure a really skilled banjo technician hereabouts!
As a LAST resort...I will consider shipping the banjo back to Geoff with the certainty that HE will (easily) put it right!
But gosh, I hate the very thought of shipping a topline, custom banjo like THIS for a mere 'setup'...only to have to 'fret and sweat' over it being jostled-about...BOTH directions, in transit!!!
...I'm sure you other Stelling guys can 'identify'?!
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 21:42:41
Thanks, 'doc'!
Please be aware that I am noting...and appreciating, everyone's individual advice!!!
Right now, I'm especially awaiting commentary on my existing 'setting specs' that several of you had requested and that I have already supplied here earlier.
...I'm hopeful that Friday should bring some considered comments pursuant to what I provided, in this regard.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/19/2009 21:55:15
Cornflake - Posted - 11/19/2009: 22:41:29
The tailpiece of my Fox--and my Swallowtail, which (like yours?) has the thinskirt rim--are adjusted just as you describe: 3/8 inch above the head. The head is set to about G#. I do wonder, as BeeGee said above, whether the head is broken in a spot where you can't see it, but why would the head be broken on such a young banjo? Have you checked inside to be sure the nuts are ~snug?
My Fox took a year of solid playing before it came alive. The Swallowtail arrived louder than the Fox.
I too hate sending my banjos away, but it's pretty well guaranteed Geoff will get to the bottom of the problem. I sent my Fox to Geoff for refretting about 4 months ago and it came back sounding very nice and crisp (with new head). Actually, it was a bit too shrill for my tastes, but all I had to do was loosen the tailpiece a bit and that wonderful, bold, warm Stelling sound was back.
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/19/2009: 23:44:01
Thanks, guys!!!
So far...I'm learning as I go along that I am not quite as 'clueless' as I originally thought concerning this...with the exception that I cannot, for the life of me figure out HOW this Stelling tailpiece adjusts properly...'in and out' or 'up and down'...with all of these small screws???
Geoff calls it a 'pivot pin tailpiece' and it features five small screws that hold each string with their screw ends resting against (or inserting into???)...the hoop. This, plus one much larger and longer adjustment screw, directly underneath these other five...it is very perplexing to someone, uninitiated as I am! I mean, how the hell do you know WHAT to turn (and in which direction)...without further messing things up even more, thus 'snowballing' the existing problems?
What I have determined thus far, via some additional checking...is that my overall string action at the 12th fret is not much more than about 1/64" lower than what Geoff Stelling recommends! Therefore...I now am tending to doubt that 'string action' alone can be the cause of my troubles, what with such a very small increment! If it were closer to 1/32" too low...well, THEN I might be more inclined to consider string height to be a contributing factor here!
At any rate...TWO discoveries to bear in mind:
First of all, my tailpiece appears to be set approx. 1/8" higher than what Geoff recommends for this banjo on his supplied specsheet...he recommends 1/4" above the head surface. (My present measurement is 3/8".)
Secondly...my banjo's head is probably set too 'loose' as both Geoff and some of you have suggested I adjust the tension to an 'A'. ( It is now tuned to 'G.')
If I can correct these 'offset' specs...perhaps I might regain the 'voice' on this banjo?!
The problem is that I thus-far do not understand how to properly 'manipulate' this tailpiece and restore its 'correct' positioning per the Stelling specs.
Being uncertain in this regard...I certainly do not want to mess with it as yet and risk exacerbating the existing problems with the instrument, as I am really trying to avoid having to ship it back to Stelling! So, I will somehow have to learn HOW this tailpiece adjusts, prior to 'screwing with it'...(no pun intended!)
...Unless someone here can explain adjusting this tailpiece very lucidly...it's looking like a call to Geoff Stelling is in the works for tomorrow, although I inherently dislike telephone instructions of this nature...as they are occasionaly subject to being 'mis-construed' upon later and actual practical implementation.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/20/2009 00:06:09
Thor - Posted - 11/20/2009: 03:35:33
I don't have any Stelling experience, but from what I'm reading here... you might start with the head adjustment. This may have a huge impact on your sound (in a good way). One thing at a time. As far as the slight action adjustment having an impact-- it might... depending on how that 1/64" was achieved. If the coordinator rods were tweaked, it may or may not have the impact you describe. For Gibson type banjos, conventional wisdom says the rods should be neutral. I don't know if the Stelling reacts the same way to coordinator rod adjustments.
I think I'd not worry about the tailpiece adjustment until AFTER the head adjustment is made.
Geoff should be able to clarify these questions for you for sure.
FWIW.
pearcemusic - Posted - 11/20/2009: 06:06:19
my 96 Red Fox was retrofitted with a Pass rim a couple of years ago ... took a few months to open up.
Head tension is around A ...
TP Parallel to the head .... 1/4" off the head ....
I have a 1" tall bridge and and have angled the neck back a bit with shims to compensate for the bridge height.
... and the FB is radiused, as is the bridge.
rods are snug and neutral ...
I made a special non-compensated nut ... so that scale of the instrument is the same on all strings and I compensate the bridge. I love the compensated nut that Geoff does, but for some reason this banjo works better without it.
with all of that you would think my banjo would sound terrible !!!
it took a while, but i got it right where I like it ...
Geoff's set up page is a great place to start .... it works perfectly for 99% of the issues.
Edited by - pearcemusic on 11/20/2009 06:09:46
dlaustin - Posted - 11/20/2009: 07:32:37
Hi Billy,
As for adjusting the tailpiece, don't worry about the small screws. I doubt they have been changed.
To adjust the tailpiece up and down (change the tilt angle), While pressing down slightly on the front edge of the tailpiece nearest the bridge, rotate the large screw that is under the string screws: IN to lower or OUT to raise the tailpiece angle. Then remove your hand and tune it up and try it out.
Keep repeating the process until you get the best sound to your ears.
Good luck,
David
Cornflake - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:27:27
Yes, don't mess with the little screws at all on the tailpiece. It's simply a matter of adjusting the big screw.
snakeherd - Posted - 11/20/2009: 09:06:59
I wouldn't think that tailpiece height would have such a drastic effect on volume. I have an Ome tailpiece that attaches and works like a Stelling, and whether I have the height screw barely touching OR cranked down several turns I cannot make my banjo sound bad.
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/20/2009: 09:51:47
Here's a thought, could be that the banjo sat for so long it's "A sleep." Maybe you need to play it for awhile to open it back up and then get it set up again.
banjoez - Posted - 11/20/2009: 11:25:09
Thin the bridge, change the head to a Remo, tighten the head, don't have the string height too low, use 10-22-14-11-10 strings and did I say tighten the head? My Sunflower hit the sweet spot at a higher head tension than what I was used to with my Gibby's. Don't worry about torque wrenches or tap tuning.....just keep cranking it 1/8 turn at a time until you hear it come alive. Be patient. When it does it will amaze you......
Edited by - banjoez on 11/20/2009 11:28:36
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:49:14
Thanks again to all of you for your input here! This morning the guy who did the set-up on my Red Fox three weeks ago phoned to say that he'd been away on some family business...and had received the two messages I had formerly left him. So he was finally able to return my calls.
I expressed the situation to him regarding the way my banjo was playing and here is what he told me...he had adjusted the string height by manipulating the two coordinating rods inside of the instrument. He had NOT adjusted either the neck or the tailpiece nor had he touched the bridge in any way.
So, herein lies the answer to why this Red Fox sounds so 'muted'. As I'd mentioned...the head tension is too low and the action needs to be adjusted very slightly higher. I expect that these re-adjustments...plus advice from you fellas who explained that a good year or so of hard playing, should really make this new Stelling sound like it ought!
Now I have to teach myself about the fine points on banjo setup and I suppose there is no better way to learn except just doing it. I think I''ll be better served learning to adjust the beast myself, rather than trust someone to set it up the way I want it...(the way I EXPECT to get it back!) Perhaps an important lesson I am having to learn about being a banjo owner.
Having said that...learning how to adjust this Stelling 'pivot-pin' tailpiece is the part that seemed most daunting up to now. I'm still wondering about why Geoff Stelling had originally set my tailpiece to 3/8" above the head...when he clearly states in his printout that it ought to be set at 1/4"??? But it's entirely possible that the extra 1/8" clearance there is not even an issue, anyway. Special thanks to those of you here who have provided some great guidepoints on HOW to adjust this tailpiece!!!
...I'm going to get on this and resolve it before the weekend is over though and I truly appreciate the input here of all of you guys who helped me deal with getting this right!
One more thing to mention...can anyone here tell me WHY Alan Munde claims that setting the tailpieces on these Red Fox banjos to maximum 'UP' position brings out "all the tonal colors" inherent in the instruments??? I know I have read this claim on these very pages sometime over the past year or so.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/20/2009 13:12:35
Thor - Posted - 11/20/2009: 13:04:22
quote:
Originally posted by Thor
I don't have any Stelling experience, but from what I'm reading here... you might start with the head adjustment. This may have a huge impact on your sound (in a good way). One thing at a time. As far as the slight action adjustment having an impact-- it might... depending on how that 1/64" was achieved. If the coordinator rods were tweaked, it may or may not have the impact you describe. For Gibson type banjos, conventional wisdom says the rods should be neutral. I don't know if the Stelling reacts the same way to coordinator rod adjustments.
I think I'd not worry about the tailpiece adjustment until AFTER the head adjustment is made.
Geoff should be able to clarify these questions for you for sure.
FWIW.
Do I win a prize? 
Forrest - Posted - 11/20/2009: 13:10:09
Billy,
I've found the following setup to work well with my Stellings:
Neck relief at around .018-.020" between the top of hte 7th fret and 4th string (capo at 1st fret and hold down 4th string at 22nd fret when measuring).
Head tensioned at a G#
Stock Stelling 11/16" bridge properly positioned
Stock Stelling Ludwig or 5-Star head
.010/.011/.013/.020JD/.010 GHS strings
Tailpiece roughly level with the plane of the head (or maybe slightly tilted up).
Coordinator rods set at *neutral* if possible. Definitely make sure the inside nut on the upper rod is only finger tight on the tailpiece end. Very important.
Action at 1/8" off 12th fret.
I'd start with the coordniator rods. Loosen the inside nut on the tailpiece end of the rod closest to the head and snug it back finger tight. Also loosen the inner and outer nuts on the tailpiece end of the lower rod and snug them back finger tight (or with 1/8 turn of a wrench).
Make sure the head is at a G#, then check the tailpiece to make sure it's level with the head. Don't worry about the adjustment screws to move the tailpiece in and out, since you can fine tune those later. I like the tailpiece about 1/4" off the head.
Grab some automotive feeler gauges (auto parts place, or Wal-mart), your capo and a 1/4" nut driver. Put the capo on the 1st fret, grab your .018" feeler gauge and slip it between the top of the fret and the 4th string while holding down the 4th string at the 22nd fret. If it doesn't fit, take off the truss rod cover and gently loosen the truss rod nut 1/8 of a turn (turn counter clockwise). Recheck and repeat, but don't force the nut or turn more and a complete turn or two. If it feels like there is lots and lots of distance between the fret and the string, try various gauges until you can determine the clearance. Any more than .024" or so and I'd tighten the truss rod 1/8" of a turn until you get back to around .020" +/- .002".
Check the intonation of your bridge. Grab your tuner. Check the 1st string harmonic at the 12th fret with the tuner and make sure it's in tune. Then check the 1st string fretted at the 12th fret. If the fretted note is sharp to the harmonic, move the 1st string end of the bridge back toward the tailpiece. Recheck. Repeat. Do the same for the 4th string side of the bridge. It's okay if the bridge isn't entirely perpendicular to the strings, since the thicker 4th string will sometimes require that side of the bridge to be closer to the tailpiece.
These steps should yield a great sound from your Stelling. I've set up quite a few and they have all been incredible sounding banjos following these steps.
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/20/2009: 13:28:38
Many thanks, Forrest! I'm planning to do just what you've spelled-out.
And I can't thank each of you guys enough...you are ALL the greatest! I will let you all know before Monday how this 'pans out' once I've performed these re-adjustments. I feel that the advice you guys have provided here is fine information, not only for myself but for some others on the 'BHO' as well!
...I'm really hopeful now, that my 'Red Fox' will no longer sound like a 'dead fox'!!!
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/20/2009 13:31:53
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/20/2009: 21:12:51
Hey guys...kindly excuse my ignorance here...but can anyone tell me just what does it mean when you are saying "coordinator rods set to NEUTRAL"???
Also...how does one tell when the rods are at 'neutral' and how do you get both of them there? And will it matter which one you adjust first or should both be tweaked a slight amount at at time?
Before anyone screams 'flaming idiot' at me...please bear in mind that this will be my very first experience attempting to set up a banjo, so I have no prior experience to draw on and thus am depending completely upon what you guys are telling me here!
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/20/2009 21:15:40
pearcemusic - Posted - 11/21/2009: 05:43:36
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Cipri
Hey guys...kindly excuse my ignorance here...but can anyone tell me just what does it mean when you are saying "coordinator rods set to NEUTRAL"???
Also...how does one tell when the rods are at 'neutral' and how do you get both of them there? And will it matter which one you adjust first or should both be tweaked a slight amount at at time?
Before anyone screams 'flaming idiot' at me...please bear in mind that this will be my very first experience attempting to set up a banjo, so I have no prior experience to draw on and thus am depending completely upon what you guys are telling me here!
I try ..... to the best of my ability ... to not "TWEAK" the shell with pressure from the rods. I find that tweaking it can kill the tone of the banjo. So ... I tighten the rods to the neck lag screws VERY snug with no pressure on the rods at the tail end of the banjo. Then I snug up the inside nut on the front (headside) rod ... just snug .. a little tighter than finger tight but not much. Then I snug up the outside nut on the back rod (nearest the reso) ... not too tight ... not enough pressure to require any force from your wrench. Then I snug up the inside nut on that same rod ... a little tighter than finger tight ... check the front rod nut to make sure it hasn't loosened with the adjustment of the back rod. That lets the pot/shell sit in a neutral "NON TWEAKED" position. that's how I do it ... I learned the hard way by tweaking the shell on a few banjos .... it really messed them up.
Forrest - Posted - 11/21/2009: 06:00:24
That's a good description, Doub.
The coordinator rods attach to the 2 lag bolts from the neck that come through the pot. You'll want these to be fairly snug, i.e. more than finger tight, otherwise it will kill the tone of your banjo. Not so tight that you wring the darned things off, but a turn or so past finger tight. This connection solidifies the neck and pot and is essential to the transfer of sound and energy between the two. This is not what we mean by "keeping the coordinator rods neutral." A fairly snug/tight fit is what you want on this end.
The tailpiece end of the coordinator rods have 1 nut on the inside of the upper rod (one closest to the head) and 1 on the inside and 1 outside on the bottom rod. The 2 nuts on the lower rod can be used to slightly deform the rim and therefore change the pitch of the neck and the resulting string action. Having these nuts finger tight, or 1/8 turn past finger tight is what we mean by "neutral." In this position, the lower coordinator rod is not exerting pressure on the rim and should not affect the sound. The 1 nut on the inside of the upper rod can help stabilize the rim once the lower rods have been adjusted and also helps to keep it from vibrating, since it just goes into a dead end drilled out hole in the rim. I've found that having the single inside nut on the upper rod more than finger tight can have a negative effect on tone on Stellings. Even if you have to use the lower rod to adjust the action, make sure that the upper rod nut on the tailpiece end is not overly tight.
I neglected to mention checking the neck connection in my previous post. Not having the coordinator rods/neck connection good and snug can totally kill the tone. IMO, this is worth checking too.
banjoplyr - Posted - 11/21/2009: 07:36:08
Billy,
The problem is the tone ring angle. Just like a valve seat in a engine, you don't want vibration or
bounce so you cut a 45' angle,same as Stelling and voila "No bounce no vibration No sound".
take it totally apart, put it back together and it will sound great for another day or two till
the ring locks up again. Isn't Stelling the guy that keeps your old rim that you paid for when he
installs a Pass Rim. Get that gibby out and play Bluegrass. By the way, I own a 87 Sunflower
as the saying goes "Priceless"
Thanks-Mike
words like tech;feeler guage;metronome and electronic tuner scare me
pearcemusic - Posted - 11/21/2009: 07:56:57
quote:
Originally posted by banjoplyr
Billy,
The problem is the tone ring angle. Just like a valve seat in a engine, you don't want vibration or
bounce so you cut a 45' angle,same as Stelling and voila "No bounce no vibration No sound".
take it totally apart, put it back together and it will sound great for another day or two till
the ring locks up again. Isn't Stelling the guy that keeps your old rim that you paid for when he
installs a Pass Rim. Get that gibby out and play Bluegrass. By the way, I own a 87 Sunflower
as the saying goes "Priceless"
Thanks-Mike
words like tech;feeler guage;metronome and electronic tuner scare me
In my experience, the opposite occurs ... the down pressure on the tonering makes a secure connection between the rim and tonering, which better translates the vibrations thru the rim ... and you get a tone from the complete pot assembly .... rather than just the tone ring. as time passes, the pot "gels" into a great and consistent tone. Geoff keeps the old original rim/shell ... and figures that trade-in into his price to the retrofit customer ... because he doesn't want Stelling "Knock offs" on the market ... the old rim/shell has a serial number on it.
Forrest - Posted - 11/21/2009: 08:07:10
quote:
Originally posted by banjoplyr
. Get that gibby out and play Bluegrass. By the way, I own a 87 Sunflower
as the saying goes "Priceless"
Thanks-Mike
I hope your post was a joke, or intended to be humorous. If so, I'll apologize in advance and will gladly retract what I'm about to write. Billy asked for help in setting up his Stelling, not a totally inappropriate remark putting down his banjo. You offered information that most of us know to be totally off base and downright incorrect regarding the effect of the wedge fit tone ring system that Stelling uses. You're entitled to your opinion, but like bung holes (which we also all have), they are sometimes best kept to yourself.
By the way, your profile says you have an 89 Stelling Sunflower, but in your post you say it's an 87 model. Which is it, or did you just put that in there to justify your trolling?
This was obviously a misunderstanding. I'd like to retract what I said above. My apologies Mike and Billy.
Edited by - Forrest on 11/21/2009 12:52:45
banjoplyr - Posted - 11/21/2009: 11:51:45
Mike here- sorry if I offended anybody. My comments on the rim is just that I
don't see why Geoff doesn't #1 Give a credit or #2 give the old rim back in case you
don't like the results. I wasn't putting anything down and if you are worried
about $500 banjos being louder or sounding better than your $5000 banjo
maybe your better off leaving it in the case.
mike
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/21/2009: 12:00:46
Thanks, Forrest. He had seen your remarks and the man has behaved like one for expressing regret for any offense.
Mike...if you read the beginning of this thread...you would understand that the issue was that the banjo was quite satisfactory until I took it in to a local technician for some very minor adjustment and it was subsequently returned to me sounding weak and 'plunky'.
...I'm just trying to get it re-adjusted and would like to try tackling that myself. I do think your comment about keeping my '5-grand banjo in its case' was churlish...but you did apologize for any offense and I accept that. I'm not quite sure whether your comment there was directed more at me (the owner)...or at Forrest? But you apologized to all concerned and let's please allow this to rest.
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/21/2009 12:21:43
banjoplyr - Posted - 11/21/2009: 12:16:06
Billy
This is the last thing I'll say. I don't want to hijack this thread, I'm not the bad guy. I suggest
you take it to a banjo player that does setups as well or hook up with another Stelling owner
who's banjo you like and maybe you can get it to come around. best of luck.
Mike
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/21/2009: 12:23:52
Thank you, Mike...as I mentioned we are all on good terms here, at least in my own mind!
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/21/2009 12:25:31
Forrest - Posted - 11/21/2009: 12:50:35
Agreed. I'm sure you didn't mean any offense Mike and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. You're not a bad guy at all and showed it by clarifying your earlier statements.
I think your advice to Billy to take his Stelling to another Stelling owner makes good sense. Sometimes having someone else giving you a hand that knows the banjos and can play it for you in an A/B comparison can be really helpful.
slou92 - Posted - 11/21/2009: 13:37:42
I'm not sure that finger tight on the coordinator rod nuts is a "neutral" setup. I think that if you loosen those nuts, the rim will distort due to string tension. I always loosen the strings until they are completely slack, then finger tighten the inner upper nut and bottom 2 nuts. Then when I tune up, I know the rods are not pulling the rim out of round.
walshb - Posted - 11/21/2009: 17:11:50
Billy, you've got a bunch of people in suspense here, and you won't learn a darn thing until you try some adjustments. (From your description of the tone, you can't make it much worse.)
You said the tech adjusted the coordinator rods. In order to lower the action, he probably tightened the outer nut on the coordinator rod that is closest to you when looking at the banjo from the back. Loosen the inner nut on that rod, then loosen the outer nut. It will probably be pretty tight. Then just snug the outer nut, and then snug the inner nut. Put the resonator back on and be amazed at how good your Stelling sounds again. If it doesn't, try tightening the head up, just a little bit. (After the rod adjustment, your action should return back to the way it was, or very close.) Good luck! 
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/21/2009: 18:16:35
Thanks, Walsh!
I truly wish I was able to get to this today as I had wanted...but this weekend is turning out to be some kind of frantic. I have a 77 year-old maternal Aunt whom I am very close to with acute onset adult leukemia...she is very close to death in Edward Cancer Treatment Center nearby and I've spent quite a lot of time there today with her and other family members. Sadly, she is not expected to make it to Thanksgiving as the family has hoped for. I have two family members arriving here this weekend from out of state who want to visit her also and am trying to 'hang on for the ride' here. I am sure some of you can identify.
I will be back at the hospital for awhile again on Sunday morning...but please rest assured fellas, that I will try and get to this before Sunday evening and will make every effort to get some 'results' posted here by later on Sunday evening!!!
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/21/2009 21:29:24
pearcemusic - Posted - 11/22/2009: 06:42:10
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Cipri
Thanks, Walsh!
I truly wish I was able to get to this today as I had wanted...but this weekend is turning out to be some kind of frantic. I have a 77 year-old maternal Aunt whom I am very close to with acute onset adult leukemia...she is very close to death in Edward Cancer Treatment Center nearby and I've spent quite a lot of time there today with her and other family members. Sadly, she is not expected to make it to Thanksgiving as the family has hoped for. I have two family members arriving here this weekend from out of state who want to visit her also and am trying to 'hang on for the ride' here. I am sure some of you can identify.
I will be back at the hospital for awhile again on Sunday morning...but please rest assured fellas, that I will try and get to this before Sunday evening and will make every effort to get some 'results' posted here by later on Sunday evening!!!
sorry about your aunt, Billy .... my aunt was just diagnosed with the same thing .... it kinda puts things in perspective, huh?
R.T. - Posted - 11/22/2009: 16:50:23
Billy, go ahead an attend to family matters. The banjo will wait on you. Good luck with all of your endeavors.
banjos are fun
R.T.
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/22/2009: 19:42:58
First of all...let me say that I feel indebted to you guys for your kindness, your helpfulness...your understanding! I returned home from the cancer treatment center by mid-afternoon today and was at last able to focus on attending to my banjo. So, as promised...this evening I wanted to get back to those of you who have supported me in offering so much gracious time and assistance, toward this end!
Well, I am very pleased to tell all of you that, thanks to your help and instruction...my 'Red Fox' now is back to sounding the way it ought!!! Late this afternoon I was able to have about two hours free to begin getting her set-up according to the extremely well-written instructions some of you provided.
Here's the lowdown on what has occurred, subsequent to my efforts: Some really slight adjusting to the coordinator rods...(one of which was found to be somewhat excessively tight at one end)... and also retuning the head to a G#. I decided to tune the head to G# instead of 'A'...because I desired to work incrementally as I said...and this was my first time using my recently-acquired head tension gage and torque wrench. THEN...by carefully 'tweaking' the nuts on the coordinator rods in very small, gradual increments...likewise per your instructions...I was able to raise the overall action by about 1/64", maybe a tiny amount more...thus bringing it to 1/8" above the 12th fret...which is right where Geoff Stelling and several of you recommend it to be!
Having (at last) gained a semblance of understanding its 'adjustment minutiae' from what you guys provided me here...I tweaked the tailpiece per your instructions as well...lowering it slightly so that it is now practiaclly on an even plane above the head surface and now measures to just very slightly above 1/4" clearance.
As for the neck relief...I tweaked that only very slightly as well and was satisfied that this also matched the Stelling specs. As I worked slowly, methodically and in very small increments altering these settings, soon...BEHOLD...there, once again was my banjo sounding like it should with its high-end 'ring' and its low-end growl restored and plenty of chime and punch up and down the neck to boot, completely back to LIFE...good as new in every way!
NOW, I am certain that it was... 1) A slight overtightening of the coordinater rod nuts coupled with... 2) Action that had been adjusted slightly too low...that were at the foundation of my 'difficulties' here!!! The tailpiece setting...and the neck releif...were NOT found to have any real bearing on the 'issue'!
I expect that by regularly playing my 'Fox' over another year or so...she ought to really blossum to perfection...as some of you have promised...but it already sounds splendid and I am nothing short of thrilled that I was able to do this myself without having had any prior experience, so-doing! THIS was an added benefit, as I view it...because henceforth I feel that having thus gained an understanding of HOW all of these adjustments unite to allow the bluegrass banjo to technically perform...will undoubtedly allow me to keep my 'Stelling' and my 'Gibson'...'performance tuned' to the way they are at their best.
ALSO and best of all...no need to search elsewhere for a competent technician or have to 'sweat' shipping my banjos off for someone else to mess with and then trusting that I will be satisfied with THEIR 'ear' and THEIR results!
Now, I surely could NOT have accomplished any of this to a positive outcome...without the full assistance of my friends on this fine site, so once more...THANK YOU ONE AND ALL!!!
Billy
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/23/2009 19:36:52
walshb - Posted - 11/23/2009: 03:03:52
Congratulations Billy! Glad you got 'er done. We all love a happy ending! 
Now go play the dickens out of that thang and enjoy the fine instrument you have there!
Craig_B - Posted - 11/23/2009: 04:51:06
I'm just following this thread, as a newbie with an older Stelling that I'm going to be tearing down to clean, and I want to make sure I don't cause any problems by doing it. Thanks to Billy for the OP and to everyone else for their contributions to my accumulating knowledge, and Billy congrats on getting it all back to the way you wanted. I'm also very sorry to hear about your aunt. My father died from acute (adult onset) leukemia a few years back. I know what your family is going through.
Edited by - Craig_B on 11/23/2009 04:52:02
Billy Cipri - Posted - 11/23/2009: 19:29:42
God bless and happy Thanksgiving to all!
Now, let's get these banjers out of their cases after Thanksgiving dinner is cleared away...but please wait at least a decent spell to entertain the guests...(depending upon 'skill level'!)
Edited by - Billy Cipri on 11/23/2009 19:38:26
Billy Cipri - Posted - 12/03/2009: 12:05:30
Well, here it is two weeks later and now my Red Fox is back to barking as if a pack of hounds were chasing it!
stelling man - Posted - 12/03/2009: 13:48:33
Billy, I wouldn't expect anything less [It's a Stelling]
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