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beegee - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:17:08
As I was doing housework today, I emptied out a lead crystal vase where I had been displaying some cut flowers. As I washed and dried it, I noticed what a pure ring it had when struck on the edge. I just got to wondering if anybody ever made a crystal tone ring? It would a lot cheaper to mold glass than brass. I guess if you dropped your banjo it would be a shattering experience....
Edited by - beegee on 11/19/2009 13:17:29
Earls 5 - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:24:59
It would probably sound even more obnoxious than a banjo normally sounds !
Edited by - Earls 5 on 11/19/2009 13:25:28
vintagewells - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:36:21
I love these tone ring questions.
I collected some rocks that have a particularly sweet ring to them, not to mention they have an attractive sea green color. I was wondering if I could make a tone ring out of them, and no, I am not making fun of you. I carried those darn rocks out of a steep arroyo in New Mexico, just because I liked the sound of them.
Lorna
Prof - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:37:52
quote:
I guess if you dropped your banjo it would be a shattering experience....
You also would have to be careful of the natural frequency of the ring -- might end up seeming like one of those old Memorex commercials.
Trashbanjo - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:42:12
Lorna,
How did you make the rocks "ring"?
uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:42:53
You're on to something, Beegee I worked for Corning Glass for 10 years, designing products - I was the "king of Pyrex". Glass might actually make an excellent tone ring - Benjamin Franklin built a glass "harmonica", based on the tone you get from rubbing your wet finger around a wine glass.
The two biggest problems would be (1) fragility - whack your banjo against the car and the tonering is toast -or fragments. Point-loading is problematic - you could break the tonering tightening the head, and (2) manufacturing - you can't machine glass very easily, so you'd have to accept the dimensional tolerances you got out of the mold with no further modifications.
Soundwise, I think it would work.
Ken
BNJOMAKR - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:44:44
Beegee, you could call it the ClearTone !
"Those who never try... never will!"
vintagewells - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:44:59
I just tapped them. they are metamorphic, very hard, heavily mineralized and just had a nice sound....
Lorna
pick it - Posted - 11/19/2009: 15:01:55
I found that a turned down brake drum from a 57 buick ,works fine.
Brett - Posted - 11/19/2009: 15:51:03
while not bulletproof, leaded crystal is pretty tough from what I can tell. If it were made in the shape of a tone ring, I'd think once you got it on there and began to draw down the head slowly, you'd be fine. I'd think it'd survive light blows and short drops mounted in a banjo. I'd figure the resonator would crack before the crystal ring would shatter, IF it were made as thick as the dimensions of a standard flathead.
desert rose - Posted - 11/19/2009: 16:09:40
Maybe they will chime in here but this has been done by somebody right here on the Hangout a few years ago
It turned out to be troublesome if I remember and the glass couldnt hold up to the tensions of assembly and tight head etc.
They were going back to the drawing board
Scott
pick it - Posted - 11/19/2009: 17:36:31
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
while not bulletproof, leaded crystal is pretty tough from what I can tell. If it were made in the shape of a tone ring, I'd think once you got it on there and began to draw down the head slowly, you'd be fine. I'd think it'd survive light blows and short drops mounted in a banjo. I'd figure the resonator would crack before the crystal ring would shatter, IF it were made as thick as the dimensions of a standard flathead.
do you know how thick the skirt is on a tonering? no more than a few thousands thick.
Tedd - Posted - 11/20/2009: 05:06:33
Don't give Nechville any crazy new ideas.
goldtopia - Posted - 11/20/2009: 07:18:25
Sounds like a good idea.
pickNgrin - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:27:16
Robert Bland (daddybland on the BHO) did this several years ago. He had a pyrex tonering made, but it snapped in half when his tensioned the head. Robert is a pretty meticulous guy and I think he was very careful to have clean mating surfaces and use even tension, but it still snapped. I don't think he tried it again.
-matt
Edited by - pickNgrin on 11/20/2009 08:28:35
NYCJazz - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:29:47
Seems to me like an archtop rod on points design would be the most stable, especially if you could fit the points to any discrepancies in the crystal rod before you mounted the head.
uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/20/2009: 10:52:41
Glass is a "perfectly flexible" material, which is a little misleading - what it means is that if glass flexes, it will return exactly to its original form, or break - it won't stay bent. Usually when it flexes it breaks.
Lead crystal is no stronger than ordinary glass, but it's clearer and softer, easier to work. Making a banjo tone ring out of conventional glass would be VERY difficult because of the tendency to break if flexed, especially when tightening the head. Heat treating (tempering) might help - at least it wouldn't explode when broken.
Pyrex is just regular glass that has boron, and a few other things added to it, which makes it more able to withstand thermal down-shock. It's not appreciably stronger, just better for pie plates.
The best bet for a banjo might be "pyroceram", the stuff that Corning Ware and missle nose-cones were made of. The tiles on the space shuttles are also made from it. It's much stronger than ordinary glass.
The stainless steel tooling to produce tone rings from pyroceram would cost maybe 100K and dimensionally, I doubt you'd be able to go much less than 3/16" on the skirt thickness. Not only that, you'd need at least a 7 degree draft to mold it. There IS a kind of machinable pyroceram. I know very little about it.
Last but not least, a banjo with a glass or pyroceram tone ring might sound awful.
Forrest - Posted - 11/20/2009: 11:05:46
Matt is correct! Robert Bland was the one that had the Pyrex tone ring made up. He said it sounded crystal clear, with a sparkling almost transparent tone until it snapped. I think he had it made up from recycled bourbon, vodka and gin bottles from there he was tending bar, which may have contributed to it being a bit out of balance.
Robert mentioned that he was in the midst of playing a rousing rendition of Whiskey Before Breakfast when it gave up the ghost. 
5stringpicker2 - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:20:34
How about an all Glass Banjo?
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:36:40
quote:
Originally posted by desert rose
Maybe they will chime in here but this has been done by somebody right here on the Hangout a few years ago
It turned out to be troublesome if I remember and the glass couldnt hold up to the tensions of assembly and tight head etc.
They were going back to the drawing board
Scott
I remember that but all I remember was talk, I never read where the project was ever done. I have thought about it now and then, I'm glad to hear what happened. Thank you, "Count" Hugh
Edited by - Nosferatu on 11/20/2009 13:59:23
steve davis - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:55:49
I wonder if a ceramic ring would be any stronger.
JedNeedsCoffee - Posted - 11/20/2009: 13:53:39
How about a tone ring made out of Rearden Metal? (Yeah, I know it's a fictional substance but I'm just wondering if there are any other Ayn Rand fans out there).
uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/20/2009: 14:31:30
If Ayn Rand caught fire, I wouldn't ...Can't say it - no political diatribes on the hangout. Besides, she died a long tome ago, leaving Alan Greenspan to continue the damage.
How about the metal Gort was made from in "The Day The Earth Stood Still"? of Krell metal. Lots of mythical metals out there. I think a lot of guys out there have come up with an alloy you could call "Scruggs metal"
mrbook - Posted - 11/20/2009: 14:39:15
I have a banjo with a ceramic tone ring - pictured in my avatar and on my home page. Nice clear tone, and the sound gets a lot of good comments from people. It was made by a guy named Dale Randall around 1984 as far as I can tell (I bought it used from Elderly around 1995). It's a top tension, and the flathead tone ring takes a 15 1/8" head. I don't know how many the guy made, but it's a fine banjo. I would buy another with a ceramic tone ring if I ever found one.
Edited by - mrbook on 02/23/2010 18:57:36
beegee - Posted - 11/20/2009: 15:45:08
quote:
Originally posted by mrbook
I have a banjo with a ceramic tone - pictured in my avatar and on my home page. Nice clear tone, and the sound gets a lot of good comments from people. It was made by a guy named Dale Randall around 1984 as far as I can tell (I bought it used from Elderly around 1995). It's a top tension, and the flathead tone ring takes a 15 1/8" head. I don't know how many they guy made, but it's a fine banjo. I would buy another with a ceramic tone ring if I ever found one.
Say what you will...you can't fool me. Your banjo is made from one of those little round windows(porthole?)from a boat. 
Helix - Posted - 11/20/2009: 16:10:14
I was hoping to hear about the ceramic, nice job mr. book.
When I was a kid we could buy bamboo phonograph needles 3 for .05, BUT Saphire needles cost .15,
This led me to develop a bamboo banjo of 50 year flooring,
So where is the saphire tone ring?
But you ARE onto something: My wife has a friend who has this cool store and the other day she came home with a crushed quartz bowl that has been heated and formed to play F# (heart chakra). It sustains for about 5 minutes. You've seen the brass temple bells, they are, well, brassy. These quartz bells are beyond my experience with penetration, sustain, quality of tone.
I think Ben Franklin had a real patent on the Harmonium. There is a woman featured on 60 minutes who plays out over the lake they live on. I love the sustain she gets with a little trough of water, and a treadle. They couldn't find a Harmonium. so her husband built her one, it looks like different wine glasses all nestled together. She gets 10-finger chords. Looks like a little lathe.
It's a true American and patented invention, much like BEE GEE himself. Now if you can get him to hook up that Fresnel he has in his darkroom enlarger, we can proceed with the UFO signaling device. Glass should do just fine.
Edited by - Helix on 11/20/2009 16:13:23
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 11/20/2009: 17:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by Helix
I was hoping to hear about the ceramic, nice job mr. book.
When I was a kid we could buy bamboo phonograph needles 3 for .05, BUT Saphire needles cost .15,
This led me to develop a bamboo banjo of 50 year flooring,
So where is the saphire tone ring?
But you ARE onto something: My wife has a friend who has this cool store and the other day she came home with a crushed quartz bowl that has been heated and formed to play F# (heart chakra). It sustains for about 5 minutes. You've seen the brass temple bells, they are, well, brassy. These quartz bells are beyond my experience with penetration, sustain, quality of tone.
I think Ben Franklin had a real patent on the Harmonium. There is a woman featured on 60 minutes who plays out over the lake they live on. I love the sustain she gets with a little trough of water, and a treadle. They couldn't find a Harmonium. so her husband built her one, it looks like different wine glasses all nestled together. She gets 10-finger chords. Looks like a little lathe.
It's a true American and patented invention, much like BEE GEE himself. Now if you can get him to hook up that Fresnel he has in his darkroom enlarger, we can proceed with the UFO signaling device. Glass should do just fine.
FWIW Franklin called his instrument a glass harmonica. A harmonium is a portable air bellows-powered organ.
mrbook - Posted - 11/21/2009: 06:52:08
The couple times I've taken my banjo apart for setups, changing heads, and repairs, I have noticed that the ceramic tone ring seems to be glued to the cherry block rim. I don't know why, and I don't know what the bottom looks like, although the top and side look pretty much like any flathead ring. There is a little more sustain, and I think the clear head takes some of that away - plus it shows off the fine artwork inside the resonator. I did change the tailpiece for a Price and it has a Sosebee Cotton Mill bridge, but I don't fool around a lot with the major aspects of construction - I think the maker should do what they think is best, and if I like it I'll play it.
A few people have told me they hated the sound of a banjo until they heard this one. The tunneled 5th string gets hung up sometimes, leading to broken strings at the wrong time (once while our band was being intrduced at a festival). I use it more as a second banjo, but not because of sound or playability, only for the ease of use on stage.
I'm not sure if Franklin patented his glass harmonica. I read recently that he didn't get any patents, feeling that inventions for the betterment of mankind should not be owned by individuals. I'm not sure the glass harmonica falls in that category.
Edited by - mrbook on 11/21/2009 06:54:17
The Pope - Posted - 11/21/2009: 11:08:27
Uncle Fogey...
"How about the metal Gort was made from in "The Day The Earth Stood Still"? of Krell metal."
You're mixing your movies here. The Krell was the race from Forbidden Planet...
Helix - Posted - 11/21/2009: 14:15:32
I thought a portable air-bellows powered organ was a human being. So noted.
Drivel - Posted - 11/21/2009: 19:04:36
I wonder what a ring made of adamantine would sound like? Mithril would probably be real good, but for what it would cost You could buy the Gibson, stelling, and deering banjo companies. Not to mention finding Dwarfs willing to sell You some, then You would need Elfs to work it.
Edited by - Drivel on 11/21/2009 19:23:49
jmack1745 - Posted - 11/21/2009: 22:28:32
quote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldo
FWIW Franklin called his instrument a glass harmonica. A harmonium is a portable air bellows-powered organ.
Actually, ol' Ben called it the Armonica: http://www.gigmasters.com/armonica/history.htmlI don't see why it couldn't be done though. Maybe design one like a Stelling ring using the wedge fit as opposed to the Mastertone with a thin and fragile skirt. Maybe in a top tension style...
goldtopia - Posted - 11/22/2009: 00:20:50
Someone said "why not an all glass banjo ?" Well, why not an all rubber banjo. You can be very flexible with what you would like to play.
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