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banjoken - Posted - 11/17/2009: 14:47:26
Not from the same source as Gibson going Bankrupt, is it?
Cabin_Hill - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:07:37
OMG what has the instrument world come to. First comes the Gibson vs. Grich, then Gibson vs. PRS then Gibson vs Elderly now RK vs Saga OMG OMG Now it is Gibson vs. the environment.
After everyone is finishing killing each other who will be the only builder left? OMG who
The Old Timer - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:20:06
Well! I'm certainly glad to see all the SERIOUS crime in this country has apparently been taken care of! Now I'll relax!
There's been a lot of Madagascar ebony and rosewood in guitars made, advertised and sold over the last few years! I think some other makers may be on notice.
My only quibble with this post, it seems odd that the FBI would be doing this, I should think it would be Customs instead.
The Old Timer
"Ah, my native village ... soft music ...the happy peoples sitting on their balalaikas, playing their samovars..." Daffy Duck in "Book Review"
Axeman79 - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:20:13
Interesting the Fed may have the authority to confiscate anything manufactured with illegal rosewood. I know if you obtain illegal ivory they can take it. I'm not sure how far they can go, but they can be pretty nasty folks.
The raid was made by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
Axeman
If the minimum wasn't good enough...it wouldn't be the minimum.
Edited by - Axeman79 on 11/17/2009 15:21:36
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:21:07
The Gibson folks better watch out, we all know the FBI never make mistakes.
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
Edited by - Nosferatu on 11/17/2009 15:27:33
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:21:08
I expect some graphics from Greg, I mean, if not now, when?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My mission in life is really very simple. I want to make somebody's dinner better." - Chef Paul Prudhomme
Check out my webpage.
Jim D - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:45:22
Just for the record, it was the Fish & Wildlife folks, not the FBI. (Can you believe that the media made an error AND ADMITTED IT?)
Jim
on the east bank of the Yadkin River
Linwood, N.C.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/17/2009: 16:51:44
I think the real issue here is whether Madagascar's forests are going to get trashed, and the rare species there die out. Remember the passenger pigeon?
Bill
AJA - Posted - 11/17/2009: 16:51:46
Honest, Mr. Fed, this is a Gibson COPY! See the fake label?? I SWEAR it's not real Gibson. Just ask the guys on BanjoHangout - they'll tell you it's a total forgery! Please don't taze' me, bro!
Andy
www.sciencegeek.net
grich - Posted - 11/17/2009: 16:59:22
I think the real issue here is whether Madagascar's forests are going to get trashed, and the rare species there die out. Remember the passenger pigeon?
I never heard of a pigeon that could carry passengers ....... They must have been big .. real big ...
mandolin123 - Posted - 11/17/2009: 17:01:08
Buy a Martin guitar!
Well, hmmm, if that don't crank your truck.
Big Joe - Posted - 11/17/2009: 17:34:31
Let's not get too carried away. Martin also uses Madagascar Rosewood. It's not a matter of where the wood came from but whether it is certified and there is a chain of custody that can prove it is approved wood. Gibson has been pretty careful since 2003 to use only certified wood, but anything can happen. No one was arrested....yet....be interesting to see what happens next. In 03 we were told Gibson would no longer use Brazilian Rosewood on any of its products, but there were a LOT of fingerboards that were amazingly like Brazilian....though the sales flyer proclaimed them to be Indian. Funniest Indian Rosewood I'd ever seen :) .
"Big Joe" Vest
Jim D - Posted - 11/17/2009: 19:00:53
quote:
I never heard of a pigeon that could carry passengers ....... They must have been big .. real big ...
Maybe it was an "Air Carrier Pigeon." Jim on the east bank of the Yadkin River Linwood, N.C.
The Pope - Posted - 11/17/2009: 19:12:51
Interesting that the NashvillePost.com had pix of two Epiphones, not Gibson guitars...
The Pope
KI #9
2 parts Masterclones
"Learn a few chords on the banjo, it's the key to life."
Vince Gill
gcpicken - Posted - 11/17/2009: 20:51:02
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
I think the real issue here is whether Madagascar's forests are going to get trashed, and the rare species there die out. Remember the passenger pigeon?
Bill
Well, that is ONE of the real issues. The other is whether the people of Madagascar die out because they can't sell their natural resources per the edict of other nations. I wonder if folks in the US or Canada or anywhere else, would be willing to watch their own children starve to save a lemur--and yet we gang up and tell Madagascar that they should watch their own children die. I'm just saying there is another side to everything, and sometimes its a Rubic's Cube.
Edited by - gcpicken on 11/17/2009 20:51:51
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/17/2009: 20:55:31
Of course, with rosewood & ebony, it's a goose-with-the-golden-egg situation. The people of the island lose either way.
Bill
lazyarcher - Posted - 11/18/2009: 02:34:49
[quote]Originally posted by Bill Rogers
I think the real issue here is whether Madagascar's forests are going to get trashed, and the rare species there die out. Remember the passenger pigeon?
Bill
[/quot
Gibson used passenger pigeons?
I did not know that.
Dave Jack
fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 11/18/2009: 04:31:25
A special harness was devised in which a dozen passenger pigeons could actually transport a guitar. It was an early air freight system employed by Gibson, but alas the birds stopped reproducing and the system collapsed. Gibson experimented with using African Swallows but they could not carry the load with any degree of dependability.
Dean
"Each one's got to have his own style. It's all creamed potatoes, just fixed a little different." -- Benton Flippen
Edited by - fretlessinfortwayne on 11/18/2009 06:15:51
Mike Johnson - Posted - 11/18/2009: 05:02:02
What.....is the airspeed of an African swallow?
Mike Johnson
Rizo - Posted - 11/18/2009: 05:08:14
An African swallow maybe, but not a European swallow.
Jim D - Posted - 11/18/2009: 05:48:56
Are you saying that Gibson banjos are migratory?
Jim
on the east bank of the Yadkin River
Linwood, N.C.
John Allison - Posted - 11/18/2009: 07:13:29
Hmmmmmmm
Never saw a Passenger Pigeon carrying a Passenger.
Never saw a canary in the Canary Islands.
What about the Virgin Islands?
Froggie
"Courage is Fear that has said its prayers.
R Buck - Posted - 11/18/2009: 07:56:52
I see intelligence reigns or should I say "rains" here.
RobBob
Music; the best way to count time. It is a journey not a destination.
www.blueridgerounders.com
flake - Posted - 11/18/2009: 08:03:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Pope
Interesting that the NashvillePost.com had pix of two Epiphones, not Gibson guitars...
I don't know......I've seen a couple of Chinese Epi Casinos lately with really pretty and dark rosewood fingerboards........and some U.S.A Les Pauls with fingerboards in bad need of a dye job!  mike You can't ride home on a bowl of goat. I've always said that.
chickenpickin - Posted - 11/18/2009: 08:14:32
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson
What.....is the airspeed of an African swallow?
Mike Johnson
About.....tweety miles per hour....if I'm correct Tim www.purcellbanjobridges.comHappy Pickin' from the Chicken
grassrootphilosopher - Posted - 11/18/2009: 08:29:03
What gets me about this is that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service searches a company while all shipments of possibly endangered species (wood too) pass through their hands when they enter the US. The shipments must contain the necessary paperwork too.
So what about it? Do the authorities let a shipment of substandardly declared goods that they would have to seize pass in the first place and then "raid" the importer to prove their wrongdoing ?
Then again we are talking about CITES enforcement. CITES as we all know is an international treaty that bans the trade (and use) of endangered species. The material nobody´s supposed to mention and that was/is used for flatpicks comes to mind. Brasilian rosewood is another culprit.
To make matters more complicated, the laws in some parts allow you to use endangered material if it has a certain pedigree. Martin guitars apparently use such material.
To make matters even more complicated, some national authorities (for example in Germany) do not know about suchlike exeptions from the rule while others do.
To top things of, making piano keybord platings out of Ivory or mandolin/guitar fingerboards, back and sides out of brasilian rosewood will not uproot all existing dalbergia nigra trees or anihilate all existing elephants, while making room for cattle in the rainforrest and suchlike might. But the law is the law.
I would just appreciate (in my case not necessarily the US alone but quite some countries on this planet are involved) if the authorities would clarify the legal mishmash that even they seem to not understand. How shall we?
Olaf
2many5s - Posted - 11/18/2009: 09:09:26
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 20:56:51
For more fun reading about Gibson: /www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gi...ews-E6869.htm
Bill, this link hits the nail on the head. It breaks my heart that such an historic marque has wobbled completely out of control due to the lack of people skills and communication of and by the CEO. The BHO community has been talking about the OAI division for years...
The lack of morale, no empowerment to managers and employees...the list goes on and on. To think that this company makes (and has made) the Holy Grail instruments for several genres of music for decades and is this screwy is tragic. Too bad there isn't a benevolent billionaire who knows how to lead people and get them to give their best to buy Gibson and give Henry a check and his walking papers. Very, very sad.
Cottonmouth - Posted - 11/18/2009: 13:14:54
Has anyone used Brazilian rosewood for fretboards? If so, is it near as hard as ebpony?
Cottonmouth - Posted - 11/18/2009: 13:15:00
Has anyone used Brazilian rosewood for fretboards? If so, is it near as hard as ebony?
Edited by - Cottonmouth on 11/18/2009 13:15:26
robbif - Posted - 11/18/2009: 13:27:52
Pigeons? I thought they used Hummingbirds!
maplebridge48 - Posted - 11/18/2009: 17:50:06
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson
What.....is the airspeed of an African swallow?
Mike Johnson
That, as you probably already figured out, depends on whether the swallower is standing, walking or running. Red ,
SJL - Posted - 11/18/2009: 19:56:32
Perhaps it's actually Coconut.
5stringypsy - Posted - 11/18/2009: 21:10:30
I was told, confidentially of course, the way the got busted was they were approached to buy some madagascar ebony and when asked if they would like to buy some the undercover agent was told "well.. we already aggot some, you see???? Now... GO AWAY...shew.. Go... we don't need your steenking madagascar ebony, we already have one, you see..." in a horribly funny French accent of course.. at which point "shoot the moon" was heard yelled from somewhere in the parking lot and the undercover agent wooped off his lemer pelt suit and flashed his badge, which was oddly enough shaped like a blue truss rod cover?!!?!?!?!?!?! WTH????? and the raid commenced. Somewhat like an old Sho Kasugi Ninja movie but somewhat different, I think.....
BanjoLink - Posted - 11/19/2009: 09:37:14
I don't know why Gibson quit shipping by boat! They got 10,000 miles to the gallion!
Edited by - BanjoLink on 11/20/2009 08:40:08
fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 11/19/2009: 17:00:42
According to newspaper reports citing unamed sources, when approached my the uncover federal agent posing as a supplier of Madagascar ebony, the Gibson executive and a native of France, said:"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries."
banjokid1 - Posted - 11/19/2009: 17:47:52
Ah.....pigeons.
That explains why Gibson put out a lot of crap and their employees were paid chicken feed.
banjokid1 - Posted - 11/19/2009: 17:49:29
Ah.....pigeons.
That explains why Gibson put out a lot of crap and their employees were paid chicken feed.
stringbreaker - Posted - 11/19/2009: 18:05:48
you ought to try some new topics of discussion besides gibson and yourself
don wiseman - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:16:02
The Lacey Act is a 100 year old anti-poaching statute that was amended in May 2008 to make it illegal to import, possess, distribute, transport or sell in the US any plant material or any products thereof in violation of any law in any country in the world. The penalties include forfeiture of the products (strict liability without proof of intent), civil fines and imprisonment for up to 5 years for a knowing violation or 2 years for a failure to exercise "due care" in determining the legality of the origin of the wood.
Importers (Gibson in this case) of products made from plant material (wood in this case) are also required to file import declarations specifying the country of origin of the wood (not the banjo or other product made from the wood), the genus and species of the plant material, and the quantity and value of the imported shipment.
The Department of Justice has an environmental crimes unit that enforces this statute, although no prosecutions have been brought yet.
The 2008 amendments were enacted after lobbying by non-governmental organizations interested in combating illegal logging around the world. You can Google "Lacey Act" and get links to their websites as well as DoJ powerpoint presentations.
The law is very broad. Solid wood furniture and musical instruments are logical enforcement targets because the supply chain is easier to investigate than, for example, plywood or particle board.
The CITES treaty has been around for a while. There was a prosecution and a guilty plea earlier this year involving an importer of baby cribs from China. It's a little like the Lacey Act but not as broad.
mike gregory - Posted - 11/20/2009: 05:57:27
Does this mean they might seize all those antique mandolins as evidence, and not returned oto their owners, until after a long, long court trial??
I can just imagine the headline;
......................................... 
LLOYD LLOARS LLEFT IN LLEGAL LLIMBO
5stringypsy - Posted - 11/20/2009: 07:44:30
I haven't slept for a week because you haven't responded to this... wait.. it's only been up a few days.. heh.. I still haven't slept for a week!
quote:
Originally posted by mike gregory
Does this mean they might seize all those antique mandolins as evidence, and not returned oto their owners, until after a long, long court trial??
I can just imagine the headline;
.........................................
LLOYD LLOARS LLEFT IN LLEGAL LLIMBO
BC Bill - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:23:34
If Gibson is using illegal Rosewood, that would be distressing, but not nearly as distressing as their consistently poor quality control.
Bill
The Old Timer - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:35:54
Answering an earlier question, it has been VERY common to make guitar, mandolin and banjo fingerboards from rosewood, Brazilian in the old days when it was available, and Indian more recently.
It is softer than ebony for fingerboard and shows fingertip tracks after years of use, faster than ebony would.
Madagascar rosewood and ebony has been openly advertised and touted by many luthiers and instruments makers in the past few years, because it's darn good looking and it was available, and I thought legal. Why on earth would instruments companies and luthiers openly advertise something illegal? I was very surprised at the recent Gibson news to learn that apparently, at least some of this wood is NOT legal, unless this is just a big government agency screw-up.
Based on history, I'll give Gibson the benefit of the doubt and go with big government agency screw-up for now. Page: 1 2
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