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iamxavier - Posted - 11/17/2009: 01:03:21
I'm sorry if it's a dumb question. Im JUST getting into making music.
stop progress.
RedZinger - Posted - 11/17/2009: 01:52:26
It's a great question. Syncopation is one of those things I know when I hear but it is kind of hard to describe. I think of it as a kind of unexpected accent on a beat. So say you're playing in 4/4 and you're emphasizing the 2 and the 4 like this: | one TWO three FOUR | one TWO three FOUR | then you change it up a bit by putting the accent in an unexpected spot like this: | one TWO three FOUR | one TWO THREE four |, so that you moved the accent from the four in the first measure to the three in the second measure. A well placed rest can also add syncopation (I think). I may be completely wrong, but to my mind most clawhammer banjo is a lot more syncopated than is most bluegrass banjo. I'd like to hear what other clawhammer players have to say about syncopation.
Rob
eddie83 - Posted - 11/17/2009: 02:19:56
There's a book called Syncopation. It's designed for drummers but I advice every musician to have it. I teach out of it. Great book.
Basic Strum - Posted - 11/17/2009: 04:01:32
There's an easy-to-understand demonstration of syncopation by Pete Huttlinger in the first DVD of his instructional videos on John Denver's fingerpicking guitar style. Since your question suggests you're interested in understanding the concept of syncopation, you might want to check it out. At one point in time, I think, Huttlinger claimed his Denver program was Number One with a bullet in the Homespun catalog, so you may have a guitar-playing friend who has a copy. Or perhaps someone has loaded it on YouTube... or Homespun may have a clip available online. Bill
"He don't say much, but when he does ... he don't say much." Jack E. Leonard
carlb - Posted - 11/17/2009: 05:37:59
Syncopation, it's where the silences are. Listen to some ragtime music. It's not the notes you play, is where you leave out notes.
Carl
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/17/2009: 06:15:28
Singers do it all the time, emphasizing their words off the beats (when they can be best heard between the drum beats and bass thumps).
If you want to think syncopation in a song, use the words a singer would sing and place the notes where they can be best heard.
To try it yourself, play Twinkle Little Star but sing extra words like a scat singer and then emphasize some of the extra words. There are good places to do it which is called syncopation and bad ones which is called messing up the beat.
"twinkle twink twink twink little star-how-I-wonder wonder wonder what you are..." for example.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
mountiepicker - Posted - 11/17/2009: 08:21:42
Deliberate upsetting of the meter or pulse of a composition by means of a temporary shifting of the accent to a weak beat or an off-beat.
That's the official definition. Basically just means you play on the ands of the beat. For example...If you count a measure 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &. That is dividing the beat. Syncopation would be playing on the &s. The weak part of the divided beat. Hope this helps!
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/17/2009: 11:10:55
Syncopation is the shifting of a strong note to a weak beat. There. Isnt that simple. And meaningless altogether.
If you download Rocket Science Banjo from my website and got to chapter 4.2 "Breaking the Pattern" you will find a number of syncopations demonstrates and be able to play them on your computer's MIDI. You have to have TEFVIew from the Tabledit site too but they are all free downloads and you can learn most aspects of clawhammer banjo from the book too Visit the URL below.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
jojo25 - Posted - 11/17/2009: 11:31:33
irregular movement from bar to bar
the punch line to one of my very dumb jokes and the definition of synocapation...I'll spare you the balance of the joke...besides, it loses a lot without the audio
Don't forget to play all of the quasihemidemisemiquavers!!
Drop thumbs, not bombs
Joe
Stutts - Posted - 11/17/2009: 12:00:46
Syncopation might be a lot easier to understand by hearing it than having it described.
Music with a bit of 'lilt' added [a rhythmical swing, spring, flow, or cadence] is a good example of syncopation. For banjo tab or any other simple music score the syncopation is not written into the music as it would look messy and confusing, but hearing the music gives the rhythmical idea.
Listen to some Scot Joplin or other ragtime music for a good example of syncopated 'lilt'.
There are many other styles of syncopation and especially so in jazz music. But for banjo use, I think a musical 'lilt' best describes it. Will turn boring into danceable!
Have a listen to Kesh's Jig on Mike Iverson's page: http://www.bluesageband.com/Tabs.html
Lilt: Da-dump, de-dump, da-dump, de-dump [sound made by cantering horse!] :-)
Edited by - Stutts on 11/17/2009 13:11:30
RedZinger - Posted - 11/17/2009: 14:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by Stutts
Syncopation might be a lot easier to understand by hearing it than having it described....
Have a listen to Kesh's Jig on Mike Iverson's page: http://www.bluesageband.com/Tabs.html
That's a really nice jig, but it doesn't strike me as all that syncopated -- seems like pretty straight jig time, but I may not be getting it. Dan Gellert's banjo playing strikes me as highly syncopated. I think "Eph Got a Coon" at this site is a good example: http://orphonon.utopiandesign.com/ (go to the "audio" link) He's stressing different beats all over the place which gives his playing that characteristic bounce/drive/rock/funk. Best wishes, Rob
Edited by - RedZinger on 11/17/2009 14:09:43
Basic Strum - Posted - 11/17/2009: 14:13:57
To IamXavier: There's nothing mystical, but rather more mathematical about syncopation. Anyone who says they don't know what syncopation is but knows it when they hear it doesn't know what syncopation is in the first place. It's ridiculous to suggest that syncopated beats can't be identified objectively, but must rather be experienced through some osmotic, other-worldly experience. You don't have to ingest syncopated picking; rather you only have to have it shown to you. Once you do, the light bulb goes off, and you have it in your toolkit forever. Or more exactly, your right (whichever picking) hand forever. Whatever else it are, it aren't, ain't isn't, am not, most assuredly in no way be, rocket science.
Bill
"He don't say much, but when he does ... he don't say much." Jack E. Leonard
RedZinger - Posted - 11/17/2009: 14:24:32
Dear Bill (Basic strum),
I'm pretty sure a whole lot of muscians have a handle on things like syncopation by intuition, but that are otherwise hard to describe in a really good way.
For what it's worth here is the definition of syncopation from the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music:
"Syncopation: Device used by composers in order to vary postion of the stress on notes so as to avoid regular rhythm. Syncopation is achieved by accennting a weak instead of a strong beat, by putting rests on strong beats, by holding over strong beats, and by introducing a sudden change of time-signature...."
Rob
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/17/2009: 15:09:09
I think most anyone can be able to play syncopation and understand it without knowing much about it. After all, Art Tatum and Errol Garner coudn't even read music, and never took lessons - I doubt the word "syncopation" was in their lexicon before meeting "taught" musicians.
And it certainly can be explained without any particular knowledge of music.
Try this:
one and two and three AND four and one and two and three AND four and one and two and three AND four and
Or sing the catch phrase
Born in the U S A I was Born etc.
Notice how the major beats actually comes before and after the word "Born"
Or just listen to Fred Astaire sing "Puttin On The Ritz" - or the version in Young Frankenstein.
try singing "Sixteen Tons" the notes are on the same beats as the finger snaps, but the finger snaps are in a weird place compared to most country songs.
Then there is Reggae
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
iamxavier - Posted - 11/17/2009: 23:22:33
Hmm I see. I understand the idea behind it now. Thanks guys. But catching it in songs is still confusing me a bit.
Can anyone possibly show me some syncopated clawhammer tabs compared to tabs that arent syncopated at all? Preferably some easier ones I can play around with on my banjo. I think that would help a tremendous amount.
I was looking at the beginning M skip exercises on Rocket Science Banjo. So that is considered syncopating?
stop progress.
stringbeaner - Posted - 11/18/2009: 01:04:46
Get on youtube and find 'The Syncopated Clock'. It's one of the best descriptions of syncopation around.
Stringbeaner
PF. - Posted - 11/18/2009: 05:43:58
John balchs"june bug on a string" is a good example on the b part
Basic Strum - Posted - 11/18/2009: 06:17:12
Xavier: If I were new to music, and the banjo, as you are, I would be totally confused at this point by everything from textbook definitions to soft-shoe dancing monsters and Ella Fitzgerald. Going back to the top of this thread, I agree that you have asked a good question, but I think you would be better off concentrating on fundamental banjo techniques and letting the syncopation happen. If you wind up asking yourself, "am I syncopating now?", you'll just get tangled up in your shorts.
The Moore video illustrates the elusiveness of the topic, as she introduces the subject of syncopation without (unless I missed it) identifying what part of what she's doing represents syncopation. Everyone learns and applies concepts differently, but my guess is that most banjoists don't think in terms of introducing syncopation into their interpretation of a tune in the same way that they think of introducing some drop-thumb work or hammering-on, or whatever. Once you learn a variety of banjo techniques, you'll be playing with syncopation -- whether or not you identify it as such is less important.
Bill
"He don't say much, but when he does ... he don't say much." Jack E. Leonard
Edited by - Basic Strum on 11/18/2009 07:58:00
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/18/2009: 08:13:04
If you're frailing, I think one way to start syncopating is accenting the dropped thumb instead of the index.
Try the 2nd half of cripple creek regular style, then try catching all the slides and hammers with a dropped thumb instead of the finger stroke and that will put the whole melody on the back half of the beat, let you hear and feel what it can be like.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
Jonnycake White - Posted - 11/18/2009: 09:32:25
Not banjo, but Blind Willie Johnson playing "Jesus Make up my Dying Bed" is the clearest example of syncopation (playing the melody all on the off-beats) I know.
Jon W.
"The day is never dreary with the banjo's dulsome tones"
Edited by - Jonnycake White on 11/18/2009 09:33:58
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/18/2009: 11:03:33
I call the M skip a "cheap syncopation" since the hand makes its regular stroke but gets no sound then the thumb does its regular note - which is sounded. The off beat (literally) effect is syncopated, but the hand didn't have to play anything odd. Try playing any tab in the book with an M Skip and you'll hear it.
there is not a lot of syncoption as it is written mostly with the beginner in mind. If you have Perlman's "Clawhammer Style Banjo: my tune "Wall Street Strut" has some real syncopation. Ken has a bit on the subject with the tune, but I want to eventually add a syncopation chapter to RSB and do some real rag tunes.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
Updates at:
http://groups.google.com/group/rock.../files?hl=en
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at banjo brad's great banjo site:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 11/18/2009 17:14:37
majikgator - Posted - 11/18/2009: 17:12:41
mississippi john hurt
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/18/2009: 19:22:45
majikgator wrote: "mississippi john hurt"
Yup, exactly right.
stringbeaner - Posted - 11/18/2009: 22:17:16
MJH, Rev.Gary Davis, Erik Darling, The Rooftop Singers. Lordy! There are lots of examples!
mojo_monk - Posted - 11/19/2009: 05:34:28
I think of the word "tension" when I think about syncopation. Very useful technique and an essential function of how I see the banjo's role in the group setting.
Check this out. You sure can tap your foot to it, but the playing is greatly syncopated:
Dan Gellert, Black-Eyed Susie [w/Clif Ervin on bones]:
http://orphonon.utopiandesign.com/B...ed_Susie.mp3
ZEPP - Posted - 11/19/2009: 11:37:30
Sorry, I'm very late to the party (things have been a lot more hectic than usual here), but as one who believes a picture is worth a thousand words, I herewith offer both the words and the pictures in response to this thread:
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...tID=&id=3532
I used a guitar first, as the beat can be more clearly seen and heard, then switched over to a banjo.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
ZEPP
edited to correct stupid misspelling
Edited by - ZEPP on 11/19/2009 12:40:08
davr - Posted - 11/19/2009: 12:05:03
quote:
Originally posted by mojo_monk
I think of the word "tension" when I think about syncopation.
Syncopation can be relaxed as well as tense.  Melodies can be syncopated to give them 'drive' but syncopation can also be used to allow a melody to 'unfold' in a gentle (but irregular) way. One must consider -- is the tune 'jabbing' at the back-up rhythm or 'flowing' over it... dave
majikgator - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:41:52
Zepp, i really liked your explanation in the video, i thought it was very clear, i also just gotta know what kind of a banjo that was - very cool looking and interesting sound as well.
if i wote to correct stupid misspelling every time i edited to correct stupid missspellling you would see this a lot ( and i still leave in the typos half the time)
Edited by - majikgator on 11/19/2009 13:44:24
Andy Bing - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:35:08
Somebody mentioned Scott Joplin--Think of the part of "The Entertainer" starting "da da da DAH da DAH da DAH"-- the most famous example I know of a very common form of syncopation. I hear it everywhere, from the mandolin playing of Bill Monroe to the "M-skip" that Woodchuck mentioned. It seems to be a staple of all forms of American popular music from the past century. In my (limited) experience, it seems to be largely absent from traditional Irish music.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/19/2009: 22:25:47
Andy,
In Irish music they tend to call syncopations "decorations". You don't get much from the written music, but listen to a good piper - like Mick Maloney from the Chieftains and the guy from Planxty. Neither of them ever plays the same tune through exactly the same way twice. I don't hear Irish fiddling well - it doesn't sit well with my tinnitus, but the pipes - I love the pipes.
My examples are a bit out of date - I don't listen to most current Irish bands, but I have more music in the house now than I can hear in what remains of my life.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 11/19/2009 22:27:14
iamxavier - Posted - 11/19/2009: 22:44:47
Zepp that was an incredible video. Seeing and hearing it on the guitar definitely summed it up for me. Playing it is a different story, my hands are still too used to playing every beat.
ZEPP - Posted - 11/20/2009: 11:35:53
quote:
Originally posted by majikgator
Zepp, i really liked your explanation in the video, i thought it was very clear, i also just gotta know what kind of a banjo that was - very cool looking and interesting sound as well.
Thanks--I appreciate it. That's my wife's Barbie pink Goodtime. I didn't think it was quite garish enough, so I added the prism head:  quote:
if i wote to correct stupid misspelling every time i edited to correct stupid missspellling you would see this a lot ( and i still leave in the typos half the time)
Sorry, but it really bugs me when I make careless mistakes (I had spelled "more" as "moe").  Cheers, ZEPP
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