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Studebaker Hawk - Posted - 11/19/2009: 15:13:40
Let’s see… First: A village to raise a child. Yes, I’m part of a ‘village’, but that doesn’t mean I want the village in MY house, telling me how to raise MY children. That’s MY job, NOT the state’s. Neither do I want to be breathing down some other citizen’s neck, dictating the proper criteria for rearing their children. With that said, however, if there’s obvious evidence of child abuse going on, then I’m all for permanently separating the child from the abuser IMMEDIATELY and in any way possible.
When I stated that I didn’t give a damn about the perpetrators, I was alluding to the multitude of excuses perps and their lawyers give to explain away their monstrous deeds. To that, I really DO NOT give a damn. What I DO give a damn about is allowing these ‘people’ (and I use the word very loosely) to continue an existence on Earth. But you know that already.
To continue… Along with appointing myself as 1) judge, 2) jury, and 3) executioner, you also included 4) deity. I plead guilty-as-charged on the first three and I’ll take my lumps as they come, but where do you come off including number four? Is it because I have no problem with ending that individual’s life? If you answered yes, then isn’t someone who is ‘lawfully’ appointed by the state as executioner saddled with the same accusation? Or did I totally miss the point you were trying to make? And yes, I AM leaving it to the Almighty to determine the fate of the assailant’s soul… I’m just the vehicle to allow the assailant to meet eternal judgment sooner.
I’m interested in something, and please indulge me as I delve into the realm of the hypothetical (and if you don’t want to entertain what I’m about to ask, I’ll understand, believe me). Okay, if your child (and God forbid this ever to happen to any parent) ever met the same horrendous fate as the poor five-year-old that touched off this debate, and you found yourself ARMED and face to face with the individual who did the monstrous deed (you know where this is going), do you believe it would be possible for you to succumb to your visceral side and kill that person where they stand? Again, please don’t answer this if it offends you.
Being the posturing chest-beater that I am, I can truthfully answer that if it were my child, and I had the instant and terrible power of life or death over the assailant, that person would be extinguished in the most violent manner imaginable, regardless of the consequences to follow.
I think I’m nearing the end of my stamina on this thread. I’ve heard the positions made from the other side of the fence and, though I may vehemently disagree with them, I do grudgingly respect where they’re coming from. Also, I may come off as a violent person, but in all honesty I’ve been involved in very few fistfights in my lifetime, instead, managing to steer clear from a lot of trouble by successfully employing humor to disarm the TRULY troubled folks I’ve crossed paths with. My bottom line, however, and where I see blood, is when the egregious abuse of children becomes an issue. At the risk of repeating myself, I have no tolerance whatsoever for the ones who victimize the innocent. I also have no human remorse when I hear of a perpetrator, such the one we’ve been discussing, meeting a swift and violent end. And again, at the risk of coming off as a monster myself, I believe I would have no reservations to personally extinguish the life of someone like that if it came down to it.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
Edited by - Studebaker Hawk on 11/19/2009 15:15:42
BConk - Posted - 11/19/2009: 15:45:18
quote:
Originally posted by Studebaker Hawk
I’m interested in something, and please indulge me as I delve into the realm of the hypothetical (and if you don’t want to entertain what I’m about to ask, I’ll understand, believe me). Okay, if your child (and God forbid this ever to happen to any parent) ever met the same horrendous fate as the poor five-year-old that touched off this debate, and you found yourself ARMED and face to face with the individual who did the monstrous deed (you know where this is going), do you believe it would be possible for you to succumb to your visceral side and kill that person where they stand? Again, please don’t answer this if it offends you.
Being the posturing chest-beater that I am, I can truthfully answer that if it were my child, and I had the instant and terrible power of life or death over the assailant, that person would be extinguished in the most violent manner imaginable, regardless of the consequences to follow.
You don't have to be a posturing chest beater to hold this position - First of all - I don't doubt for an instant that anybody here would use deadly force without hesitation if it were in defense of their own child. As to doing such things after the crime has already been committed - well that's vengeance - and that's a much hazier area. Personally - if I didn't have any surviving children that depended on me - I probably would seek revenge in the form of blood from someone that had done such things to my child. For me - with my one child - my only child is so precious that her loss to such a fate would be something I wouldn't be able to bear anyway - so I wouldn't care if killing her killer meant I'd be killed or imprisoned myself. But if I still had other children that depended on me then I'd probably seek vengeance through the law.
KE - Posted - 11/19/2009: 16:18:35
Recognizing it's hard to know what you'll do in such circumstances until you've faced it, here's what I think based on cold rational thought and how I've reacted in prior crises (which thankfully does not include the circumstances we're discussing.)
I'd use deadly force in the defense of a child, including sacrificing my own life. I'd do this for any child, not just my own.
But if the child is already dead, my vengeance wouldn't bring them back. I'd do whatever it took to bring the killer to justice, but I'm not the one to exact justice. That's up to others and that's the contract we make to be part of a civilized society. That's why we have a constitution and laws which no man should be above. In my opinion, to place yourself above the rights of others, even the rights of the worst of us, is supreme arrogance. And honestly, I'd get more satisfaction by seeing them brought to justice because it allows others to witness and share in the outrage. And just to be clear, I personally have no problem with the death penalty.
Brian makes a good point about considering the needs of those close to you. For me the issue is who you consider yourself to be, and how you want others to see you. I choose not to be a killer unless it can't be avoided, ie in defense of life or a worthy cause. If you see taking out a ruthless child killer as a worthy cause, I suppose I could see that point as long as it was in service of some need other than your own need for vengeance.
Voyageur - Posted - 11/19/2009: 18:41:26
I find it hard to imagine anything that could be added to what KE just said.
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/20/2009: 15:17:26
An update.
The arrested man is being charged with rape of the child and her killing by "suffocation".
The theory is that the mother traded her daughter for a drug deal..........
Just when you think it can't get any worse it does............
KE - Posted - 11/20/2009: 17:28:30
Another update. Here is what the child's father had to say today:
quote:
He told The Associated Press earlier that he had cared for Shaniya for several years but decided to give Davis a chance to raise her because she seemed to be getting her life together.
"Right now I just think it's best that we let the justice system take its course," Lockhart said. "I try to keep my heart as pure as possible, and I'm sure one day I will be able to sit down and talk to her, try and understand what was going through her mind."
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/20/2009: 21:43:04
The dad's history is questionable also.
News said multiple children by multiple women.........
Goes back to my premise.
If you're not ready for a child, don't have any because they may very well suffer because of you.
Pure selfishness. That "moment" is not worth the suffering this, or any child goes through because of their parents screwed up priority system.
I wonder if he accepts any responsibility because he is partly to blame. His first priority should have been making sure beyond a doubt his daughter was in a safe environment.
Apparently he lacked the ability or the concern to make that decision, and others in his life.
flake - Posted - 11/20/2009: 22:28:15
When a person has proven, by an act or acts so outlandish and heinous, that they aren't to be trusted in civilized society, I don't think the phrases "revenge killing" or "judge, jury and executioner" can be said to apply any longer. It is now a case of "justifiable homicide" or "self-defense".
It has been my experience that Evil Is Evil, and will continue on it's course as long as it is given free reign to do so. The only time Evil ever expresses apprehension or remorse is when it's either been cornered, caught or is faced with it's own demise.
mike
dingo - Posted - 11/21/2009: 07:03:00
A month ago, a little girl disappeared from a rural home in the next county. 2 days of Searching, another older girl, took police to a grave. 12 yr old girl was found. This week on news, 15 yr old girl confessed, she dug 2 graves, and wanted to see how it felt to murder someone.
She will be tried as an adult, but what would make a little girl of 15 even think about something like that. At 15, all I could think about was keeping my grades up to get to college, and what horse show I was going to next.
Louisiana Rose - Posted - 11/21/2009: 07:52:45
All these posts are proof positive that mandatory parenting classes short start at the age of 11 in school and there should be an final examination in parenting to be passed before any person is allowed to have children, I know this sounds very radical, but if children were taught parenting skills before they grew old enough to become parents, even those children who are the innocent victims of their own 'bad' parents, would have a better chance of becoming 'good' parents themselves, it is a well known fact that abused children often repeat the cycle, it is the duty of evey person in society to do everything they can to prevent this cycle and help to break the mould.
I am not saying this without experience, My mother, though I love her deeply, was often very abusive to all of us children and because of her, my doctors regarded any accident my children had with suspicion, despite the fact that I was not in any way abusive to them, I broke the mould, but others don't and they NEED HELP, NOT JUST CRITICISM.
I AM NOT IN ANY WAY CONDONING THE HORRIFIC ABUSE THIS CHILD AND HUNDREDS LIKE HER SUFFER EVERY YEAR SO PLEASE DO NOT THINK i am
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/21/2009: 10:19:06
Makes sense to me Rose.
The change has to start from somewhere and it sure isn't coming from those parents that shouldn't have had kids to start with.
But it will take a lot more too.
The value systems of these people are so radically different for the norm it is unbelievable.
Look how many people today have to have "things" to give them self esteem. A big parts of why so many are up to their ears in credit card debt, lifestyle wants instead of needs.
And it is at it's lowest point with people that fall into bed with anyone for any reason without a thought to the consequences which are SO many now, including a slow horrible death from AIDS.
But even as bad as AIDS is I think it's worse to conceive a child that is doomed from that conception forward.
I just don't know how it's going to change and change permanently because I don't see where anyone that is in a position to make the changes thinks it's something that is important enough to do anything about.
madkelt2004 - Posted - 11/22/2009: 02:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bode
CHIP ARNOLD for President
I'd second that!
Edited by - Poppy on 11/22/2009 10:49:38
dingo - Posted - 11/22/2009: 07:59:04
It would be one easy way to stop the cycle, and it would save money for everyone. STOP rewarding them. Take the children away at birth. And leave the parents either in prison for there drug crimes or on the streets. Welfare is nothing but a hinderance and makes lazy people out of most, Welfare needs to be only for the people who truly can't work anymore, and have contributed to the system. Having babies is not a job. And you are not special because you can have them. Women have been doing it for years. And get right up and go back to there work.
People should also be able to draw welfare in a short term situation. But they should be monitored to the max. I do not believe in the man snoping into peoples lives, but when the money is not theirs, and they did not earn it, these people need to lose some rights.
Edited by - dingo on 11/22/2009 08:04:47
KE - Posted - 11/22/2009: 08:46:20
Who are 'these people'? Abuse occurs in all levels of socioeconomic status. And for the record, we do remove children from homes, as I have discussed in an earlier post.
Poppy - Posted - 11/22/2009: 10:52:27
NO more political posts, keep the discussion on topic.
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/22/2009: 11:01:59
How about pointing out the political posts Poppy please.
I sure hope it wasn't the Chip for president thing.
That was a tongue in cheek as it gets.
I'm a NECHVILLIAN!
You don't know until you KNOW!
Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
Edited by - jbanjoist on 11/22/2009 11:20:19
Poppy - Posted - 11/22/2009: 11:36:56
already took care of it. so I can't, but just keep this on topic please
plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 11/22/2009: 14:40:34
This is a sickening topic but my thoughts are
#1 - punishment, the womans genetic line has now been stopped, that's natural justice. If this woman can be brought back to state of cognition then she should spend the rest of her days being reminded of exactly what her complicity did to her daughter.
#2 - punishment, the person[s] who actually committed the rape/mutilation & murder is/are no better than animals and following due legal process should be dealt with as such. But this must follow the rule of law, otherwise the true criminals may not be identified
#3 - statistics, the rates quoted were per 100,000 population; I'd guess the population has increased as a result the number of crimes may be higher? Not sure though as I don't know the population increase
#4 - Parenting classes? - I have colleagues who deal with the local sex offenders register, disconcertingly there is a high percentage of people on this register who's proffessions were teachers & religious leaders. Would these be the same people advocated to train prospective parents in what makes a good & moral parent?
my tuppence worth, but due to the exchange rate not very valuable these days
btw - I miss the penguins
Richard Dress - Posted - 11/22/2009: 14:51:16
I am surprised that nobody from PC blamed it all on you-know-who.
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/22/2009: 16:55:02
plunk the woman's genetic line continues.
She is pregnant.
But it is VERY doubtful she will raise the child.
Let's hope someone will raise it away from the kind of environment that created it's mother. Page: 1 2 3
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