Ybanjo - Posted - 11/15/2009:  10:35:19

First, I want to say hey to everyone! Looks like a very good site for beginners like me. Actually, I was made aware of the site last night when we went to a concert with Bill Emerson, and several people had t-shirts with the website on them. Good advertising!

Anyway, I am a VERY new beginner. Wanted to learn the banjo for most of my life but just never felt like I had the time to do it right. Well, now I'm retired and ready to go! I have already purchased a Gold Tone BG-250F and have a good teacher. We started lessons last week, so all I can do now is few rolls. I'm not is big hurry, anyway. I am comitted to give this the time it deserves.

I do have a question about something that is giving me some concern.... How to place the right hand?? I have been told to get the fingers as close to perpendicular to the strings. When I do that, I'm having a hard time keeping the two fingers on the head, and get the picks to the right string. It seems like I am a lot more comfortable with my hand at a tilt, just under 45 degrees. As a beginner, I just don't know how important all this is, and am I "learning" it the wrong way. I haven't asked the teacher about this yet, but I thought I would get as many opinions as possible.

Thanks for the very nice website!

banjonz - Posted - 11/15/2009:  10:41:28

Hi Jim, welcome to the Hangout. Good to have you here. What you have described is common for most folk starting out on BG banjo. I teach banjo here in my region and I explain to my students that it takes time and effort to train one's hand to do what it needs to do. Generally the little finger wants to rise up of it own accord. You just need to persevere and train the hand to keep it down. The underside of the hand does tend to hurt a bit but in time it does settle down. The 45 degree angle is good for the hand as this is what the arm generally is at anyway. At the end of the day, you need to do what is comfortable for you to do and also be able to pick cleanly. It is like learning to ride a bicycle... you are gonna fall of a few times till you get it right. Enjoy the ride!

Wayne
New Zealand


My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my short-term memory's not as sharp as it used to be.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/15/2009:  10:55:29

Hold it so that the thumbpick and fingerpicks strike the strings flat--not at an angle. (It's not a comfortable position for most beginners.)

Since everyone 's hands are different, the correct position for you will be different from all other pickers (if you are playing the the proper position for your anatomy).

Edited by - Richard Dress on 11/15/2009 20:07:56

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/15/2009:  11:09:16

Rather than move your hand, arching it, moving the picks off center or whatever, try moving the banjo neck up and down and see if that's not easier and less painful. You'll find a spot that feels good and sounds good to you. May take a little messing around with to find the right spot, but once you do. it'll feel great and you can then work on timing, tone and technique.

Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

Kstevensmd - Posted - 11/15/2009:  12:17:10

Welcome to the BHO!

I would recommend some printed help. The book Banjo for Dummies by Bill Evans will help point you in the right direction!

Ken Stevens
Grafton, MA

Pepper Laing - Posted - 11/15/2009:  16:48:57

Have a look through the videos section and take note of how people are holding thier hands. I think you will find a big difference from one to the next but will probably help guide you some.

www.myspace.com/pepperlaingt...nestarkillers

tunetime - Posted - 11/15/2009:  18:13:01

I am a beginner also and experienced the same problem. I viewed as many videos on this site under links and also on youtube and yes there are some differences and it appears that what is comfortable for you and sounds clean is right for you....spend some time on the videos it is well worth it .................keep picking

sometimes your the windshield......sometimes your the bug

Ybanjo - Posted - 11/16/2009:  06:59:17

Thanks for all the good information! I think my biggest problem is that I don't want to learn it the wrong way, and have to change it later. I know how difficult it is to change a habit. I have watched many others play and it sure looks like my hand positoning is not a lot different than many others. Maybe I'm over-thinking this. I do know that whenever I start thinking about my hand position, I usually mess up with the rolls that I'm practicing. Seems like the less I think about it, the easier it is. Is that just me, or is it normal??

Another question... How well should I know the rolls before progressing to the chords? Right now, I can pretty easily go through the rolls (that I've learned), but I usually mess up after a few minutes. Speed is not all that great, but I've been told to get accuracy first, then let the speed happen.

Agan, thanks for the help!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/16/2009:  07:26:43

Chords first, rolls later, IMO. If you can change chords while someone (you?) is singing, you can actually make (simple) music. That's fun, and can encourage you to stay the course. If you're just practicing rolls, you're...well...just practicing.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 11/16/2009 07:28:51

rhazelbaker - Posted - 11/25/2009:  20:38:44

I guess all beginners have the same issues, I am a beginner and have been working on my right hand position so thanks to all for your advice here, it is a great help.

Ybanjo, you came to the right place to get information. There is a ton of information here and allot of great people who really like to help.

Tony Trischka - Posted - 11/25/2009:  23:32:29

In terms of right hand position, there are many different ways to do it. I suggest just doing what comes naturally. Just let your forearm rest on the armrest (that's why they call it.....) and place one or two fingers on the head...it can be either ring or pinky or both, whatever works best....I know, Earl has two fingers down, but that's just naturally how his hand worked when he was a kid and he himself says it doesn't matter if you have one or two fingers down on the head. I suggest having a little arch in your wrist because it will give you a bigger sound and will also help you avoid hitting the head with your thumbpick.
In terms of chords or rolls first, I've taught people both ways and either seems to work just fine. Good luck, Tony

Tony Trischka - Posted - 11/25/2009:  23:34:31

ps In terms of the angle of the two support fingers, I've seen pros do it in different ways. Some have theirs at a right angle, others have them splayed out. So, again, just experiment with what works for you and what gives you the best tone.

bevans - Posted - 11/26/2009:  12:20:02

Thanks Ken for the recommendation of my book Banjo For Dummies. I'll try not to make this a commercial plug but I will say that there is a detailed explanation in this book of how I work with brand new students to create a comfortable and hopefully effortless right hand position that ends up looking at lot like Earl's! This same information is in video form on the AcuTab Power Picking Vol. 4 "Bluegrass Banjo Master Class" DVD. I currently don't have any of these in stock but Elderly is listing it in their for sale items online.

Getting a comfortable right hand position is a struggle for every new player. Keep your shoulder and elbow relaxed as you play and don't forget to play pretty close to, but not touching, the bridge. If you place your hand in this region and relax your arm, you'll instantly have an arched wrist without working at it. I personally think an arched wrist is essential for the best tone and the most effortless playing, when you're close to the bridge. Try not to bend the wrist to flatten out the picks - I agree with TexasBanjo that neck angle can be crucial here.

The "one finger vs. two finger" debate will rage on forever. For new students, I find that I can pretty easily get folks used to two fingers by asking them to play for a week or two with JUST the ring finger down. Once you get used to the ring finger plant, two fingers is easily achieved.

Relaxation is the key. Have a great Thanksgiving weekend everyone and I'll keep an eye on this thread and contribute as I can!

Sincerely,

Bill Evans

sawyer 12 - Posted - 11/26/2009:  12:36:39

I can't compete with the pros's advice but I personally don't think the two finger plant is a big issue. If you watch a lot of banjo players closely, including pros, they are resting mostly on the pinky and the ring finger is in position but comes off of the head as they play.
The purpose of the finger plant is to stabilize your hand, as long as the pinky is planted you will be fine.

DENNISNDODIE - Posted - 11/26/2009:  13:23:51

When you have dreams about banjo rolls and chords you will be totally hooked.Pratice practice , practice.

mdgodaat - Posted - 11/27/2009:  04:17:32

Hi Jim and welcome to the hangout.

Some helpful suggestions are out there and many naturally.

My biggest training aid / help is this. Take 2 pieces of 'sticky back' velcro apptox. 1" wide X 2" long and attach them to each other. Stick one 'sticky' side on your banjo head where you position your two 'plant' fingers [ring and pinky]. The other "sticky' side will be facing out. Considering how sticky / gummy it is when you plant or position your two fingers ON it, it will have a twofold effect. It will help keep your hand in position and it will help keep your two fingers planted. This idea will not hurt your banjo or mute your banjo in any way and can be removed as easily as it's applied. I've been playing two years now and I still have it on there [You may have to replace it occasionally]. The best part now is that due to the thickness of it I no longer use it for 'planting' my fingers ON but instead use it as a type of 'stop' at the edge to rest my two fingers [nails] against. Again this helps fingers stay in position but gives you more 'freedom' for movement and isn't so restricting. Learning rolls, as you get better you will hopefully tend to have and curl your fingers into a better, more comfortable picking position.

The arch of the wrist is highly challenged amongst banjo players. How you arch it up or down verses how you arch it close to the head or not. Everyone's different. I suggest starting with the basic teaching position with a slight arch in both directions. 1] away from the head 2] in respect to the angle of your arm coming in toward the strings [picking at 90 degrees or more of an angle ?] Try for 90 degrees on string / finger angle as it's all a 'training' process anyway. This angle will produce better sound and accuracy with time [cleaner picking].

Start slow. As Earl once said "most people try something too difficult or too fast then get discouraged and quit".

If you have the music you want to play in your heart and your head you have half the battle won [the 'easy' half - ha !]

pmedic - Posted - 11/27/2009:  05:09:49

Tape your little and fourth finger together, worked for me

Prof - Posted - 11/27/2009:  05:29:10

Listen to Tony Trischka -- IMO, you should forget the artificial means of forcing your fingers down -- plenty of folks (including pros) do it with just the pinky. I'm not a pro (or even close!!!), but I'm a pinky planter, and no one has ever laughed at me (well....maybe about my playing, but not my pinky planting!). I'm a firm believer that forcing your body to do something that doesn't feel natural (when you can do it in a more natural way) is going to slow your progress down. Good luck with the banjo -- we're all in this thing together!

Dan

Ybanjo - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:00:28

OK, all very good information!! Thanks!

Now, I have another related question about righ hand positioning... is it OK to touch the bridge with the little finger?? I've heard that it's OK and I've heard that it's a no-no. My teacher said that it would be OK. I find that it helps to locate my hand without having to look every time.

Just wondering what "real" pickers say.

GHohwald - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:09:40

Welcome to the Hangout

Here is a link to a free video that covers right hand positioning and technique

http://www.freeguitarvideos.com/ban...ht-hand.html

Hope this helps

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ybanjo

First, I want to say hey to everyone! Looks like a very good site for beginners like me. Actually, I was made aware of the site last night when we went to a concert with Bill Emerson, and several people had t-shirts with the website on them. Good advertising!

Anyway, I am a VERY new beginner. Wanted to learn the banjo for most of my life but just never felt like I had the time to do it right. Well, now I'm retired and ready to go! I have already purchased a Gold Tone BG-250F and have a good teacher. We started lessons last week, so all I can do now is few rolls. I'm not is big hurry, anyway. I am comitted to give this the time it deserves.

I do have a question about something that is giving me some concern.... How to place the right hand?? I have been told to get the fingers as close to perpendicular to the strings. When I do that, I'm having a hard time keeping the two fingers on the head, and get the picks to the right string. It seems like I am a lot more comfortable with my hand at a tilt, just under 45 degrees. As a beginner, I just don't know how important all this is, and am I "learning" it the wrong way. I haven't asked the teacher about this yet, but I thought I would get as many opinions as possible.

Thanks for the very nice website!

---

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:49:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prof
IMO, you should forget the artificial means of forcing your fingers down -- plenty of folks (including pros) do it with just the pinky.

---

rollinalong - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:50:29

Check out this video at 1:12 when Bobby Thompson starts playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgW7dmG-efg

Bill

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 11/29/2009:  15:18:54

Well, the thing is after you have the fundamentals, and advance in playing, the right hand thing is not a lock, and the positions and approach changes to suit the moment tone and note effectwise.. But A BIG BUT, its not something for the beginner or even new intermediate player to worry about, it will come as you advance.. There has been some very good advice here from the masters, listen and heed.. fundamentals first!!

DSGoose - Posted - 12/22/2009:  11:11:48

Hi Jim,

I'm just a few months past where you are now. I'm even playing the same Gold Tone BG-250F!

Check out Paul Hawthorne's website for lots of right hand info. He's the author of "Gestalt Banjo", which seems to have a bit of a cult following.

http://hawthorne.fastie.com/gestalt...o/gbv1-7.htm

Cheers,
Dennis

Ybanjo - Posted - 12/22/2009:  11:32:34

Thanks for all the very good information! The more I look, the more I see just about every variation there is! And many very good players change their right hand positioning, even in the same song!

After my teacher convinced me to just forget about my ring finger for the time being, I have now noticed that I'm very comfortably resting both fingers on the head! I was over-thinking it, I think!

thetexan - Posted - 12/23/2009:  09:27:51

ybanjo,

Welcome to the world of banjology!

What you want is as close to perpendicular as you are able.....if its possible.

45 degrees is a little much. I think most masters keep theirs around 15 to 25 degrees. You should arch your fingers somewhere between a 'C' shape and flat, parallel with the head (see Bobby Thompson). Then work on planting either the pinky or ring and pinky.

Things to avoid are flyaway fingers as you pick. Keep short power strokes. The drill for this is to play as softly and precisely as possible until you can strike harder and faster without loosing control of your fingers.

It is very important to get much closer to perpendicular than you are now, 45 degrees.

Do not be too concerned if you can only plant the pinky. This is very low down the priority list of right hand posture problems. Remember, whether pinky only or ring and pinky, they are only there for stability for the right hand. Correct finger to string attack and control of the other four digits is critical to correct learning.

tex

WildJimbo - Posted - 12/23/2009:  09:48:30

You said, " I ... have a good teacher." " I haven't asked the teacher about this yet, but I thought I would get as many opinions as possible."

So before you decide to blow-off what he's doing by coming here and getting opinions from "just anybody" I really think that you should be addressing this sort of question with your teacher. That way you're less likely to undermine anything he might be trying to accomplish.

It's not that the information you'll find here is bad, usually quite the contrary, but I do think that you need to hang with your teacher for a while before you go back to him and say something like, "That's cool and all, but the people over at the BHO said..."

dinla - Posted - 12/23/2009:  11:27:42

Assuming that you as a beginner are sitting down to play...part of the trick to getting the right playing position with your hand is to actually sit right first. When I first started playing I held it many ways but soon figured out that I had to establish a proper playing position to always keep it the same. Different ways of sitting yielded different angles of the way I hit the strings. Once I got my pickin position right the hand felt like it was in the right place, because it was the easiest spot for me to hold my hand and get a clear sound. Other angles didn't give clarity to the notes.

Banjocoltrane - Posted - 12/23/2009:  12:58:31

You don't need to worry about anchoring both of your fingers, only one of them if you can't do both. Do not tape your fingers together, you could possible hurt your hand in an attempt to make your hand look like Earls. Tony said it best.

In addition, I don't think the hand needs to be perpendicular to the strings (JD Crowe would be a close example of someone who is close to perpendicular?)
Personally, I think the picks should hit the string fairly square...In order to do this I bend my picks.

Of course, there are tons of great players that don't worry about such things. I know two of my favorite players here in GA have angles of attack that are FAR from perpendicular to the strings...they are around 45 degrees
However, should you take that approach I recommend listening to make sure you aren't getting a "swooshing" sound from the pick. So in regards to string attack......whatever works, feels and sounds good.

The main things you want to watch for-As least amount of tension in your hand/arm/fingers as possible. Do not Claw the strings.

While I agree with a lot of things on this thread, I will not advocate arching the wrist.
Mainly because it conjures up images of a beginner over-arching his wrist.
In many other areas of hand-use, over extending your wrist can cause some serious health problems over time. I don't see why it should be different for banjo playing.
If you are gonna "arch" your wrist....I'd describe it as allowing your hand to take it's relaxed natural position as you place your arm on the armrest. Your wrist will most likely not be perfectly straight in this natural position, but I'm hesitant to tell you to consciously "arch" it.

Edited by - Banjocoltrane on 12/23/2009 13:00:09

Nicholas Glardon - Posted - 12/24/2009:  11:18:14

Your teacher should be able to help you with that as you go along try to keep a arch to your wrist not flat good luck and have fun Nick

Pablo9364 - Posted - 12/30/2009:  14:12:14

Hi Jim
My opinion from a beginners point of view:

have been playing for 9 months now. Realised about 3 months back I was not happy with my right hand position as it didn't seem to have any similarity to professional players.

I found out what the best position should be (lots of useful pointers mentioned above already by many helpful hangout members) and then tried to use this position.

I felt it was more important for me to concentrate on getting this right. didn't seem to have the attention to be able to regulate my volume(at the same time) so played quite loud but with better right hand positioning and now I am a lot more used to it I can feel it is more efficient and get a good feel and can play faster as well .

Its definitely something that gradually gets better with practise (ie from raw beginner onwards).

TuPug - Posted - 12/31/2009:  08:37:10

I'd like to get more info about the wrist arch.. I've been practicing a lot over the holidays (1 to 2 hours each day) and even with stretching, I'm feeling pain under my wrist. I've figured it's either from putting too much pressure on the arm rest as I play, or an incorrect arch. Has anyone experienced this, and can you suggest what I should do differently? I know from my classical guitar training that you want to keep all your moving parts in the most natural alignment as possible, as in, don't over arch wrists, etc.