mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  07:43:00

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Just kidding. But I heard some music played by a Borneo headhunter tribesman on TV the other day. It was hard to hear it real well because a narrator was talking, but I could hear the music in the background. It looked like the guy was playing something that looked like a dulcimer, but he was holding it like we'd hold a guitar -- I'd say sort of sideways dulcimer playing. The neat thing was that the music sounded just like it came right out of the appalachians -- it wasn't played in some weird scale or tempo, it sounded great. In fact, I put it on my DVR and I may try to play it on the banjo or ( blush ) even my dulcimer -- holding it sideways, of course.

jethrobodine - Posted - 11/13/2009:  08:00:53

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anyway to link up a video or audio? i would like to see or hear it.


scott

flatfoot - Posted - 11/13/2009:  08:03:41

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The so-called mountain dulcimer is built around the major pentatonic scale. The scale has only 5 notes, hence the missing frets.

The same scale shows up in every indigenous music everywhere in the world. Children use it when they make up songs. It is the basis of most American folk music, including bluegrass. Recent research seems to indicate that this set of notes is hard-wireed into the human brain. It seems to show up everywhere one looks.

I got some tunes up on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/flatfoot50

tonehead - Posted - 11/13/2009:  08:03:42

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Here's a video along the same lines. A Chinese musician plays a native folk song. Bela Fleck says something like " I know that one". The similarities between folk songs of various cultures is amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvgJ9Hg7T4Q



Play it like you mean it.

ScottK - Posted - 11/13/2009:  08:13:29

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quote:

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I heard some music played by a Borneo headhunter tribesman on TV the other day... the music sounded just like it came right out of the appalachians

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Maybe he learned the tune from Foghorn Stringband. They played at the Rainforest World Music Festival in Borneo back in 2005.

http://www.foghornstringband.com/ph...n_dance.html

Scott

mralston - Posted - 11/13/2009:  08:15:08

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Check out this thread and the youtube links: http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/162535

Mark Ralston

"Now, people…. when it comes to the scientifical parts of music I know nothing about it, but I can play. Listen…. A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here" ......... Uncle Dave Macon

www.yellowstone-jewelry.com

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  09:19:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by jethrobodine

anyway to link up a video or audio? i would like to see or hear it.


scott

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Maybe. It was on PBS, and the show was about a bomber crew in WW2 that was shot down over Borneo, and how the "headhunters" helped them to survive until the allies could get to them. I sa it on Tuesday night, I think.

R Buck - Posted - 11/13/2009:  09:43:11

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What is so great about old time music for me is, the majority of the old timers were not that informed by the western tradition of music. So their music sounds like something from world music and not country music as we know it now. The Carter Family did much to change the chords and melodies of old mountain songs and make them more "uniform". Not necessarily a good thing but it is reflective of the reductionist thinking that prevailed in that time to make things more "streamlined", a buzz word of that time.

RobBob
Music; the best way to count time. It is a journey not a destination.
www.blueridgerounders.com

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/13/2009:  09:58:12

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The instrument is called sapeh or sape, though pronounced "sampeh." It is one of the traditional instruments of the various mountain tribes of Kalimantan (Borneo) and, because of its contemplative, delicate sound, is very well received by outsiders. There are many recordings available and I was fortunate some years ago to hear a touring player in concert and, like the Mountain Dulcimer, it is very quiet and for personal use only. Most modern players (of both instruments) therefore use amplification. It's a very large instrument and it was fun trying to convince Customs it wasn't dangerous.
The apparent similarities are due mostly to the single melody and the iterated drones but careful listening reveals very different melodic structures. Southeast Asia, including the islands (where I was able to do some fieldwork), contains tens of thousands of entirely different musical cultures, almost any of which belie our Western stereotypes of "Oriental" music.
The dancing which sometimes accompanies it is also very graceful. Though our ideas of delicacy may be offended when a Dayak elder reminisces about the Good Old Days when "that particular song is the one we used to play to work us up for the Headhunting raids."

You can start your YouTube journey here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrn_oGiq0DQ

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  10:20:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle

The instrument is called sapeh or sape, though pronounced "sampeh." It is one of the traditional instruments of the various mountain tribes of Kalimantan (Borneo) and, because of its contemplative, delicate sound, is very well received by outsiders. There are many recordings available and I was fortunate some years ago to hear a touring player in concert and, like the Mountain Dulcimer, it is very quiet and for personal use only. Most modern players (of both instruments) therefore use amplification. It's a very large instrument and it was fun trying to convince Customs it wasn't dangerous.
The apparent similarities are due mostly to the single melody and the iterated drones but careful listening reveals very different melodic structures. Southeast Asia, including the islands (where I was able to do some fieldwork), contains tens of thousands of entirely different musical cultures, almost any of which belie our Western stereotypes of "Oriental" music.
The dancing which sometimes accompanies it is also very graceful. Though our ideas of delicacy may be offended when a Dayak elder reminisces about the Good Old Days when "that particular song is the one we used to play to work us up for the Headhunting raids."

You can start your YouTube journey here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrn_oGiq0DQ

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Thank you, Curt, for your always welcome and expert info. I'm off to youtube to follow the trail. The sound of that music was too compelling to just give it the brushoff. Thanks again.

ramjo - Posted - 11/13/2009:  10:24:12

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Fascinating anthropological bent to this thread. I was thinking that since many cultures share similar stories--a creation myth, for example--it's not unlikely that disparate, unconnected cultures would give birth to similar music, both story and music being an expression of the human reaction to the world (or collective unconscious). CBCarlilse said this much better than I could.

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  10:32:58

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Well I did go to youtube, following your link, and all I can say is MY GOD -- the overall beauty is overwhelming, the music, the dancer's clothing, her movements. These folks don't fit the stereotype I grew up believing in. Makes me wonder how many other misconceptions I have about people and cultures.

Thank you very much for the tip. More and more I'm thinking I chose the wrong college major and career :>)

Bill Martin

Edit: Here's another link I found. No video, but the music could have been played, and felt right at home, in the Appalachian Mountains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0gecHnYaDw

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Edited by - mwc9725e on 11/13/2009 10:41:31

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/13/2009:  11:06:06

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This may veer off-topic but I, too, saw the PBS program about the Headhunters and the Airmen. My response, however, was much more conflicted than the general public, I'm sure. As an anthropologist and ethnomusicologist I immediately recognized the sapeh and its music and the culture as well. I have seen the tribulations of traditional societies trying to survive in an increasingly global economy. As the son of a Navy Chaplain, a veteran and lucky survivor of the South Pacific campaign, from a family of missionaries, I know men who were on the Bataan death march and women who were prisoners of the Japanese. And, as a veteran of the Vietnam era and a collector of Japanese military memorabilia, I often think of the young men of both sides who, far from home in the jungles of Southeast Asia, tried to kill the Other, while surviving themselves, and the parents who never learned their fates. All this while surrounded by Edens of endangered animals, unknown pharmacies of plants, and musics that become extinct daily, even now. My father's ship was sunk, and half the crew died off Savo Island, the source of some of the most beautiful singing I have ever heard.
Perhaps I'm just getting old and sentimental but I think we should remember to more frequently embrace our loved ones and enjoy the art and music that make our lives more enjoyable. And, however strange that may seem to others, that includes the banjo.

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  11:50:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle

This may veer off-topic but I, too, saw the PBS program about the Headhunters and the Airmen. My response, however, was much more conflicted than the general public, I'm sure. As an anthropologist and ethnomusicologist I immediately recognized the sapeh and its music and the culture as well. I have seen the tribulations of traditional societies trying to survive in an increasingly global economy. As the son of a Navy Chaplain, a veteran and lucky survivor of the South Pacific campaign, from a family of missionaries, I know men who were on the Bataan death march and women who were prisoners of the Japanese. And, as a veteran of the Vietnam era and a collector of Japanese military memorabilia, I often think of the young men of both sides who, far from home in the jungles of Southeast Asia, tried to kill the Other, while surviving themselves, and the parents who never learned their fates. All this while surrounded by Edens of endangered animals, unknown pharmacies of plants, and musics that become extinct daily, even now. My father's ship was sunk, and half the crew died off Savo Island, the source of some of the most beautiful singing I have ever heard.
Perhaps I'm just getting old and sentimental but I think we should remember to more frequently embrace our loved ones and enjoy the art and music that make our lives more enjoyable. And, however strange that may seem to others, that includes the banjo.

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It's not off topic, I think music reflects people, and what's in their soul. Often when you hear the music, you change your perceptions of a people or culture. Maybe that's the best thing about music.

A lot of things can alter our views of people. I was a Marine in 1950-1951 in the Korean war when we fought against the Chinese army. I hated them. In 1992 I taught at a small predominantly minority private college here in NC. One of my colleagues, and a guy who became my good friend was in the Chinese army in Korea during the time I was there. Heck, we may have actually tried to kill each other in those days. If the circumstances were right, I'm sure we did. Turned out in reality he was a pleasant, thoughtful, bright person with a very good sense of humor. Had he told me when we first met that he'd been in the Chinese army, we would probably never have become friends. It's strange, the little bits and pieces that can drastically affect our lives.

Sometimes it's true that we learn lessons from an unlikely source.

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  14:14:57

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And listen to this one I found on youtube. This tune just has to have originated in the U.S. Could our music been carried over there during WW2 and picked up by the islanders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGN50vL3OaA

Matt Buckley - Posted - 11/13/2009:  16:05:54

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I watched the program as well and was also struck by the music of the sapeh. Quite Appalachian in sound and feel.

Cheers, Matt

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/13/2009:  16:44:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Buckley

I watched the program as well and was also struck by the music of the sapeh. Quite Appalachian in sound and feel.

Cheers, Matt

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I wonder if they are playing music taught them by the missionaries? The link just above sounds for all the world like old time church music.

banjoak - Posted - 11/13/2009:  17:07:38

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Definitely our musical roots aren't just watered down simplified Western Art music. And there is a lot of misconceptions about other music of the world that it's not anything like our folk music. Much of it shares many of the same qualities, both harmonically and rhythmically. Using low ratios, or the overtone series as a basis to come up with basic scales is pretty worldwide, because it's just so obvious, all of our brains can hear it naturally without having to do any math.

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/13/2009:  23:27:00

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Most of the music of the sapeh is pentatonic and, as has been observed by many around here, five-note scales are common around the world. In any particular pentatonic scale melodies often seem to resemble each other, hence the common reaction "That Chinese (pentatonic) tune sounds very much like a Scottish (pentatonic) tune I know." [You can substitute any (pentatonic) musical culture.]
It is theoretically possible to construct a melody in a pentatonic scale which would sound unusual by utilizing wide, disjunct melodic leaps but that is not how most musical cultures do it. They tend to use conjunct, step-wise (pentatonically-speaking) motion and, thus, five-note melodies resemble each other more than do seven-note melodies just because there are fewer notes to select from.
I can assure you that the Dayak are not (in the main) playing Western music, though I am sure they probably thought some of the missionary hymns weren't as strange as people in other parts of the world did. One of the reasons that American music was so successfully created out of an amalgam of European (folk - Not Classical music) and African traditional musics is that both those cultures had great numbers of elements in common before they met. American Indian music, on the other hand, was quite different from either European or African music and, consequently, has had little if any influence or interchange with them.
Just a side note. Flatfoot wrote: "The so-called mountain dulcimer is built around the major pentatonic scale. The scale has only 5 notes, hence the missing frets." This is incorrect; the dulcimer is diatonic. That is, it has frets which approximate the white notes on the piano: seven of them in an octave. The type of scale or mode you get depends on where you start. Most worldwide pentatonic (5-note) scales approximate the black notes on the piano: five of them in an octave. The type of scale you get likewise depends on where you start. Thus, the dulcimer and the sapeh generally play completely different kinds of scales; the similarities are mostly based on the melody + drone formula.

[Did anyone else find the horrible YouTube video of the two Malaysian rocker chicks strumming their sapehs and gyrating in front of the percussion battery and chorus line with their hornbill-feather dance shields? Contrast that with the traditional dance I referenced earlier. Wow, indeed.]

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/14/2009:  06:57:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle


It is theoretically possible to construct a melody in a pentatonic scale which would sound unusual by utilizing wide, disjunct melodic leaps but that is not how most musical cultures do it. They tend to use conjunct, step-wise (pentatonically-speaking) motion and, thus, five-note melodies resemble each other more than do seven-note melodies just because there are fewer notes to select from.

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fewer notes = higher probability that at least two people will come up with the same, or similar, melodies. I shoulda thunk of that, I worked with probability most of my productive career.

By 'conjunct do you mean close proximity on the scale?

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/14/2009:  08:45:02

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By 'conjunct do you mean close proximity on the scale?

Yep. We (from a diatonic, seven-note scale tradition) tend to think of conjunct as meaning a step (half- or whole-) away: e.g., from C to D or F to G. And we tend to think (and talk about) 5-note scales as "gapped," that is, "missing" something - because they are "obviously" more Primitive than we 7-note folks. But different games have different rules: we (usually) don't consider soccer more primitive than football* just because you can't use your hands or block someone. In a (common) pentatonic scale, C, D, F, G, A (1-2-4-5-6), it would still be considered a step-wise (conjunct) movement from D to F (2 to 4) or A to C' (6 to 8) even though, to us, they would be skipping something (disjunct). So we might define conjunct as "close proximity on the scale" that is being used, regardless of any Other scale. Each (musical) game/culture has its own rules. Remember Maslow's famous: "If the only tool you have is a hammer you tend to treat everything as if it were a nail."

*I know, I know: most of the world calls soccer "football."
[And most people call the banjer the banjo.]

banjopogo - Posted - 11/14/2009:  10:00:46

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In about 1981 my brother-in-law was working with Cambodian refugees in the L.A. area. I sat in on one of their church meetings. I had my fiddle with me, and on a whim I got it out and plucked it with my thumb. It was easy to follow along with the pentatonic scales, and, being fretless, the plucked fiddle sounded very Asian-
and the Cambodians liked it too!

Michael

mp3 page: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088/
Also available:
Michael's Old Time Fiddle and Banjo Hour (Hi-Fi and Lo-Fi streams)

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/14/2009:  10:52:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle


By 'conjunct do you mean close proximity on the scale?

In a (common) pentatonic scale, C, D, F, G, A (1-2-4-5-6), it would still be considered a step-wise (conjunct) movement from D to F (2 to 4) or A to C' (6 to 8) even though, to us, they would be skipping something (disjunct).

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How many danged pentatonic scales are there, anyway? You have C,D,F,G,A and I've seen C,D,E,G,A, not to mention the minor ones. Can we just take any 5 notes from a particular scale and create a pentatonic scale? I guess this belongs in the "theory" forum, but what the heck, I originated this thread :>)

P.S. Where could one get one of those sapes and how much do you think it might cost?

Oops. Just noticed there's 4 of them on ebay right now, for not a whole lot of money. I need to go beg my wife for some money.

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Edited by - mwc9725e on 11/14/2009 10:59:15

John Gribble - Posted - 11/14/2009:  14:31:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by flatfoot

The so-called mountain dulcimer is built around the major pentatonic scale. The scale has only 5 notes, hence the missing frets.

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Well, not quite. The dulcimer has a diatonic (7 note, then octave) fret pattern. If one begins at the third fret, it automatically plays a major scale, not a pentatonic scale. The "missing" frets are the accidentals, the "black keys" on the piano.

John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/14/2009:  17:17:37

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"How many danged pentatonic scales are there, anyway? ... Can we just take any 5 notes from a particular scale and create a pentatonic scale? "

Yep, and Nope. This brings up our ethnocentric terminology. We invented the term "pentatonic" to mean a scale which (only) has five notes. There are an almost infinite possible number of scales: two notes (one note not usually being considered a "scale"), three, four, five, six, seven, and even more - all within an octave (which we consider a sacrosanct interval, beyond which additional notes are duplicates, only an octave higher). [There are examples of scales which do extend past an octave and do Not duplicate, but we didn't know that - therefore they do not exist (in our theory).]

We have tried to come up with terms which modify pentatonic (like "anhemitonic," etc.) but even they don't cover all the bases. [Or trebles.] In theory, yes, we can just "take any five notes" and create a pentatonic scale, but that is only a theoretical exercise. In the real world, there are a smaller number of common pentatonic scales used. We don't have to catalogue all the pentatonic scales in World musical cultures. The important thing is to treat them with respect in each case as we encounter them and evaluate them on their own (musico-cultural) terms, not by how they stack up against "our" music. Of course, the same could be said for individual human beings we may meet.

flatfoot - Posted - 11/14/2009:  17:52:53

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.

>>>...Flatfoot wrote: "The so-called mountain dulcimer is built around the major pentatonic scale. The scale has only 5 notes, hence the missing frets." This is incorrect; the dulcimer is diatonic. That is, it has frets which approximate the white notes on the piano...>>>

FF: Thanks for clearing that up.

I got some tunes up on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/flatfoot50

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/15/2009:  09:45:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle



We don't have to catalogue all the pentatonic scales in World musical cultures. The important thing is to treat them with respect in each case as we encounter them and evaluate them on their own (musico-cultural) terms, not by how they stack up against "our" music. Of course, the same could be said for individual human beings we may meet.

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And then there are the old 4-note shaped note scales. Who would have thought you could get such beautifully compelling and expressive music from just 4 notes? Could it be that less really is more, at least some of the time?

Music is indeed a very rich and rewarding field of work and study -- borders on the subject of philosophy, maybe even theology. Wish I'd taken it more seriously when I was young.

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Edited by - mwc9725e on 11/15/2009 09:51:40

flatfoot - Posted - 11/15/2009:  16:49:26

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.

>>>...And then there are the old 4-note shaped note scales. Who would have thought you could get such beautifully compelling and expressive music from just 4 notes...>>>

I don't play dulcimer, but I do sing shape note. So I checked my songbook before I wrote this :)

The scales used in shapenote music are the conventional 7-tone major and minor scales. The four shapes are called "Fa" "So" "La" and "Mi." Three of the four shapes are used twice:

"do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do"

becomes

"fa-so-la-fa-so-la-mi-fa"

Also there is no rule that says that shapenote songs cannot use flats and sharps occasionally.


I got some tunes up on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/flatfoot50

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Edited by - flatfoot on 11/16/2009 05:27:09

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/15/2009:  16:59:05

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"And then there are the old 4-note shaped note scales "

Actually, this is another example of "notation" gumming up our perceptions of the "music." Most, but not all, of the classic shape-note hymnals were written in a four-shape notation, all right, but they represented a seven-note scale. The old-fashioned English diatonic scale (which dated from before Shakespeare's time), was built on the Medieval tetrachord and there were two within the octave. Long story short: our "do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-si-do" (which came from the Italian/Continental tradition) was sung in England, "fa-so-la-fa-so-la-mi-fa." The hymns were sung in normal, diatonic (7-note) modes. The so-called "Fasola" singers of shape-note gradually became considered hopelessly old-fashioned and, in most cases, were supplanted by various "modern" seven-note shaped systems. Of course, even they were eventually edged out by even more "up-to-date" high church music reformers - who, naturally, used Standard notation.

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/16/2009:  09:07:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle

"And then there are the old 4-note shaped note scales "

Actually, this is another example of "notation" gumming up our perceptions of the "music." Most, but not all, of the classic shape-note hymnals were written in a four-shape notation, all right, but they represented a seven-note scale. The old-fashioned English diatonic scale (which dated from before Shakespeare's time), was built on the Medieval tetrachord and there were two within the octave. Long story short: our "do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-si-do" (which came from the Italian/Continental tradition) was sung in England, "fa-so-la-fa-so-la-mi-fa." The hymns were sung in normal, diatonic (7-note) modes. The so-called "Fasola" singers of shape-note gradually became considered hopelessly old-fashioned and, in most cases, were supplanted by various "modern" seven-note shaped systems. Of course, even they were eventually edged out by even more "up-to-date" high church music reformers - who, naturally, used Standard notation.

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OK you guys, let me ask this: is the mi in shape note scale the same as the 'ti' in our "standard scale" ( do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do )? And why is the scale often described as "fa-sol-la and sometimes mi"? Is mi just an incidental note that gets tossed in once in a while?

But back to the pentatonic scale ( thought you'd heard the last from me, right? ). I've been playing around with what I believe to be the "standard" pentatonic major G scale -- G,A,B,D,E ( do-re-mi-sol-la). I played some of the old old appalachian mountain ballad melodies I've heard before, to see how close they adhere to that pentatonic scale. In all of those tunes, that pesky "C" note crops up. Not very often, but it does get in there. Is that normal? When we say a tune's played in the pentatonic scale, do we really mean it uses ONLY notes from the pentatonic scale? Or do we accept some deviation from the strictly pentatonic scale?

I'm not attempting to feign ignorance, it really isn't a "feign" at all, I AM ignorant, at least of these things. But I'd like to know more about how that scale's used, and I thank you for any clarification.

Bill Martin

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/16/2009:  23:18:13

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***I'm expecting this to be kicked into the Theory section any minute now and that's OK with me but I've noticed a lack of humor and excess of passion in that arena.***

[OK you guys, let me ask this: is the mi in shape note scale the same as the 'ti' in our "standard scale" ( do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do )?]

Insert this here:
[Long story short: our "do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-si-do" (which came from the Italian/Continental tradition) was sung in England, "fa-so-la-fa-so-la-mi-fa."]
That is a C major scale: do=fa, re=so, mi=la, fa=fa, sol=so, la=la, si/ti=mi, do=fa. You did notice that the second half of the scale (the upper tetrachord) is (roughly) the same in both Continental and English systems.

[And why is the scale often described as "fa-sol-la and sometimes mi"?]

I'm not sure what this means. I've never heard it described thusly.

[Is mi just an incidental note that gets tossed in once in a while?]

Definitely not. In a major scale, mi/si/ti is the seventh of the scale. (In a minor scale it's different but let's not go there.)

[I've been playing around with what I believe to be the "standard" pentatonic major G scale -- G,A,B,D,E ( do-re-mi-sol-la). I played some of the old old appalachian mountain ballad melodies I've heard before, to see how close they adhere to that pentatonic scale. In all of those tunes, that pesky "C" note crops up.]

1. There is no Standard pentatonic scale. There are a number of Common ones. G,A.B,D,E is one.
2. To paraphrase Johnny Cochrane, "If the C doesn't fit, you must quit." If you need a C in that scale either you need a different pentatonic scale or it isn't pentatonic.
3. Scales are derived from the music, not vice versa. In order to ascertain which scale you are in, write down ALL the notes that are used in any particular melody. If you use 5 notes (Only), it is a pentatonic scale. Which one depends upon which notes you use. If you use G,A,B,C,D, and E, for instance, it is a 6-note scale, called hexatonic. No big deal: it doesn't have to be pentatonic.
4. "Major" isn't really an appropriate adjective to be used in describing pentatonic scales. Some 5-note scales do have a major 3rd but that doesn't tell us anything about any of the Other notes in the scale. (On the other hand, in our 7-note scales, the only common difference is the third, so "major" and "minor" are meaningful descriptive terms.)

[When we say a tune's played in the pentatonic scale, do we really mean it uses ONLY notes from the pentatonic scale?]

Yes. (Substituting "a" for "the" in the first use and "that" for the in the second.)

banjoak - Posted - 11/17/2009:  10:54:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle


[OK you guys, let me ask this: is the mi in shape note scale the same as the 'ti' in our "standard scale" ( do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do )?]


[Is mi just an incidental note that gets tossed in once in a while?]

Definitely not. In a major scale, mi/si/ti is the seventh of the scale. (In a minor scale it's different but let's not go there.)

[I've been playing around with what I believe to be the "standard" pentatonic major G scale -- G,A,B,D,E ( do-re-mi-sol-la). I played some of the old old appalachian mountain ballad melodies I've heard before, to see how close they adhere to that pentatonic scale. In all of those tunes, that pesky "C" note crops up.]

1. There is no Standard pentatonic scale. There are a number of Common ones. G,A.B,D,E is one.
2. To paraphrase Johnny Cochrane, "If the C doesn't fit, you must quit." If you need a C in that scale either you need a different pentatonic scale or it isn't pentatonic.
3. Scales are derived from the music, not vice versa. In order to ascertain which scale you are in, write down ALL the notes that are used in any particular melody. If you use 5 notes (Only), it is a pentatonic scale. Which one depends upon which notes you use. If you use G,A,B,C,D, and E, for instance, it is a 6-note scale, called hexatonic. No big deal: it doesn't have to be pentatonic.
4. "Major" isn't really an appropriate adjective to be used in describing pentatonic scales. Some 5-note scales do have a major 3rd but that doesn't tell us anything about any of the Other notes in the scale. (On the other hand, in our 7-note scales, the only common difference is the third, so "major" and "minor" are meaningful descriptive terms.)

[When we say a tune's played in the pentatonic scale, do we really mean it uses ONLY notes from the pentatonic scale?]

Yes. (Substituting "a" for "the" in the first use and "that" for the in the second.)

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Good posts.

A tune can remain considered pentatonic even though it uses other notes, if those notes are not used in a harmonic sense; those extra notes are just used as passing notes or ornament. Sometimes one hears those notes as not even in tune. The fourth is at times sharp (although they may be intending to hit a 520) The Irish 5 note roll on fiddles you would use something closer to C# than C in G. It's harmonic content of the melody that determines if it's pentatonic.

As far as 4. - it's not just the third, the sixth and seventh can play a role in the mode. I agree major isn't always the best adjective to describe some modes.

mwc9725e - Posted - 11/18/2009:  06:42:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by cbcarlisle



1. There is no Standard pentatonic scale. There are a number of Common ones. G,A.B,D,E is one.
2. To paraphrase Johnny Cochrane, "If the C doesn't fit, you must quit." If you need a C in that scale either you need a different pentatonic scale or it isn't pentatonic.
3. Scales are derived from the music, not vice versa. In order to ascertain which scale you are in, write down ALL the notes that are used in any particular melody. If you use 5 notes (Only), it is a pentatonic scale. Which one depends upon which notes you use. If you use G,A,B,C,D, and E, for instance, it is a 6-note scale, called hexatonic. No big deal: it doesn't have to be pentatonic.
4. "Major" isn't really an appropriate adjective to be used in describing pentatonic scales. Some 5-note scales do have a major 3rd but that doesn't tell us anything about any of the Other notes in the scale. (On the other hand, in our 7-note scales, the only common difference is the third, so "major" and "minor" are meaningful descriptive terms.)

[When we say a tune's played in the pentatonic scale, do we really mean it uses ONLY notes from the pentatonic scale?]

Yes. (Substituting "a" for "the" in the first use and "that" for the in the second.)

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What I'm finding out in all this is that I need to more carefully evaluate what I'm taught. I remember a few years ago my guitar teacher was trying ( unsuccessfully ) to teach me improvisation. In the process, he had me learning "the" pentatonic scale.

What you said does make perfect sense -- if a tune contains only 5 notes ( any 5 notes ), then by definition it's pentatonic.

Thanks for the help.

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/18/2009:  10:05:26

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Some of this discussion is about theory but much is about perception and even history. And many of these points could be expanded into dissertations (I've read some of them). I'll try to keep it short and sweet.

[A tune can remain considered pentatonic even though it uses other notes, if those notes are not used in a harmonic sense; those extra notes are just used as passing notes or ornament....It's harmonic content of the melody that determines if it's pentatonic.]
Musicologists have been conflicted about this for the past century. I would partly agree if you meant "structural" rather than "harmonic." (Harmony doesn't pertain to a discussion of scales.) My reservation is that this mostly only applies to Europe/America where there is a long history of interaction between 5- and 7-note scales. (In other pentatonic areas even the ornaments are realized within a 5-note framework.) In other words, any European singer with an inventory of ornaments - and a repertory of songs in both 5- and 7-note scales - would be tempted to apply them in pentatonic situations as they would in diatonic.

[Sometimes one hears those notes as not even in tune. The fourth is at times sharp (although they may be intending to hit a 520) The Irish 5 note roll on fiddles you would use something closer to C# than C in G.]
The matter of intonation is not connected to the number of pitches. Every culture determines the accents of its language and the intonation of its musical pitches. Just because we have invented methods of transcribing languages and musics doesn't mean we can tell other cultures how they should be expressing themselves. The only way we can determine what "they may be intending" is to study, without preconception, what they actually "do." To paraphrase Shakespeare, "There are more notes than are dreamed of on our piano keyboards."

[As far as 4. - it's not just the third, the sixth and seventh can play a role in the mode. I agree major isn't always the best adjective to describe some modes.]
I apologize for my lack of clarity. When I said "our 7-note scales" I was referring to modern Classical-Popular scales, not modes. The overwhelming majority of music in the modern industrialized world is melody accompanied by harmony and is derived from 17th-century Classical music. The concepts of keys, chords, major-and-minor, modulation, and a host of musical ideas we now take for granted were the product of this dramatic shift in European music. Modes, which had been dominant in Europe (as they still are in India and the Middle East), survived only in our folk musics. In modal music Every note is critical to the nature of the particular mode. It is more than just the scale - but that is a dissertation in itself. ("Major" is only a useful term when differentiating a modern, diatonic scale from "minor." It doesn't serve any useful function for modes, or scales of less than 7 notes.)