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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.
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Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 14:52:01
I am extremely disappointed that the following topic was modified and locked down: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...&whichpage=3
What happened to free speech? Open forums are exactly that, a place to openly discuss or view your opinion, good or bad on a subject matter. If somebody can't have an opinion about a particular topic on a forum I don't see the point of being part of it. In fact I don't find it useful to pay my players union fees to have another members opinion squashed by a moderator that I may find useful or informative in some way. The above forum topic was not a personal attack by the person to any other person or member, it was a member voicing an opinion on a sponsors services.
If this is the way things work around here I will not be renewing my union fees next year.
Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
mountiepicker - Posted - 11/12/2009: 14:54:15
Well if you think it is dead just wait and see what happens to this topic!!
You make a good point man.
Jason
Tom Robison - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:02:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz
I am extremely disappointed that the following topic was modified and locked down: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...&whichpage=3
Some "mods" are way too quick to whip out the padlock and lock a thread. I've definitely seen a trend in this direction over the last year or so. I chalk it up to inexperience or a zealousness to keep this discussion board as beige as possible.
Tom--"Who knows...the way things are going all our banjos may soon be pre-war"-- http://www.simonpurebluegrass.com/
BanjoDiva - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:09:13
You do not understand the first amendment. It protects you only from having the government infringe on your speech. This forum is privately owned and therefore you have no right to free speech here.
Diva
_____________________________________________________
RK R-80 #67 "The Black Dahlia"
www.banjoholler.com
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:10:42
Free speech is a deal between the Gov and you. BHO, being privately owned, doesn't fall under constitutional law. It may be edited as the owner sees fit such as not permitting political topics, religous debates or porn.
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:12:27
Diva, did you just stutter or did I write that?
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
steve davis - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:13:45
I'm glad it was locked.I excersized freedom of speech in my opinions.
A lot of folks expressed their opinions as you are,now.
What's left to say about the whole mess?
schlange - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:22:03
Actually, it's unlocked again.
I'm working with the mods to try to lock FEWER threads. Just because a thread's original question has been answered doesn't mean it needs to be locked...I prefer to let them die naturally. And that's what we'll do with this thread, unless things get out of hand. I see nothing wrong with discussing a store's shipping policies on this forum.
Axeman79 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:50:44
Excellent decision. I was going to make a comment that there is a review section where members post their experiences with various vendors anyway. My limited experience is that the vast majority of discussions in the forums about products and vendors are recommendations and not criticisms.
Axeman
If the minimum wasn't good enough...it wouldn't be the minimum.
Westvon - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:51:23
Ya, but my concern is the delivery policy of Domino's Pizza. What's up with that?
David Russell
www.hotbanjolicks.com
RB11 Player - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:55:31
quote:
What happened to free speech? Open forums are exactly that, a place to openly discuss or view your opinion, good or bad on a subject matter. If somebody can't have an opinion about a particular topic on a forum I don't see the point of being part of it. In fact I don't find it useful to pay my players union fees to have another members opinion squashed by a moderator that I may find useful or informative in some way. The above forum topic was not a personal attack by the person to any other person or member, it was a member voicing an opinion on a sponsors services.
According to your theory sponsors are fair game. JD is just as much a member as you are and deserves earned respect. The same as you expect. Rule clarification: If you sell something or sposor the HO you are subject to be judged in an open kangaroo court. In the meantime respect your neighbor or get locked out for violating the rules of patrons. This site has become a viper pit for vendors and sponsors. Diva do the same rules as the HO apply to your forum?
Edited by - RB11 Player on 11/12/2009 15:56:54
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:02:23
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoDiva
You do not understand the first amendment. It protects you only from having the government infringe on your speech. This forum is privately owned and therefore you have no right to free speech here.
First amendment? This is a global website, which reaches much further than the United States. I don't see how that applies here. Regardless, my point is that forums are useless without the ability to openly discuss the topic without it being locked down due to its negative nature/context. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
RB11 Player - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:11:15
The rules should be the same for all and not based on your type of participation.
We are governed under the law where the .org is registered. I beleive that to be the USA.
Equal rights for patron or seller. Novel idea 
Edited by - RB11 Player on 11/12/2009 16:19:37
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:18:52
quote:
According to your theory sponsors are fair game. JD is just as much a member as you are and deserves earned respect. The same as you expect.
I agree with you about respect, there is always a right way to voice your opinion gracefully, but I also see a conflict of interest here. This suggests to me that if I'm a sponsor of the site, I can create an account and be exempt from criticism about my product/services? Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Poppy - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:19:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoDiva
You do not understand the first amendment. It protects you only from having the government infringe on your speech. This forum is privately owned and therefore you have no right to free speech here.
First amendment? This is a global website, which reaches much further than the United States. I don't see how that applies here. Regardless, my point is that forums are useless without the ability to openly discuss the topic without it being locked down due to its negative nature/context.
Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Read the rules before posting a negative comment about someone, IF you "flame"someone it is against the rules you agreed to when you joined, global or not. Take time to re read the rules. If you have a problem with a person or dealer and work it out, THEN post something, and why flame them? I have problems with a company right now, BUT it will never make it here, I am talking to them to work it out. "What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg
Edited by - Poppy on 11/12/2009 16:25:16
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:25:35
In other words, it's one thing to report that you are returning a banjo to xxx because you didn't agree that it was in "excellent slightly used condition," but another to call a seller, in that same situation, "a fraudulent sleazy cheat."
Bill
Alex Z - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:29:47
The reason that topics are locked, from my observation on the BHO, is seldom -- if ever -- because of the initial posting. Rather, it is because of replies to the initial posting that eventually violate the rules of the BHO.
One of the skills that moderators ought to have in plentiful supply is to be a careful "listener" -- in our case, a careful reader.
Dubz raised a valid point: Why was a topic locked that was not a personal attack, but rather a voicing of opinion on a retail commercial policy?
Dubz's point was validated by Eric, who unlocked the topic. Apparently, even a moderator can make an occasional mistake.
Dubz happened to use an introductory phrase -- "What happened to free speech?" To a good listener, the legal issue of "free speech" is not a material part of Dubz's communication.
It is a purely rhetorical device to take a non-material part of an opponent's statement and try to argue against that, as if rebutting that part will negate the material points.
So, if someone wants to defend the initial decision by the moderator to lock the topic, then they should do so, and explain their reasons. It is not clear to me that anyone is actually defending and explaining the initial decision of the moderator.
Rather, the debate has turned to the question of whether a moderator on an internet forum has the right to lock a topic. Obviously, a mistake was made. Dubz raised a good point, and the BHO is better off for him having raised it.
Alex Z
Poppy - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:34:11
I locked the topic, The original poster had solved his problem, so I thought I would lock the topic. Nothing to do with free speech, nothing to do with anything except he got what he wanted.
"What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:51:45
quote:
It is a purely rhetorical device to take a non-material part of an opponent's statement and try to argue against that, as if rebutting that part will negate the material points.
So, if someone wants to defend the initial decision by the moderator to lock the topic, then they should do so, and explain their reasons. It is not clear to me that anyone is actually defending and explaining the initial decision of the moderator.
Rather, the debate has turned to the question of whether a moderator on an internet forum has the right to lock a topic. Obviously, a mistake was made. Dubz raised a good point, and the BHO is better off for him having raised it.
Alex Z
Thank you Alex, you have summed up my feelings well. I did not start the thread to discuss the rights of the moderator. It was purely aimed towards the decision. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Tom Robison - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:00:49
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy
I locked the topic, The original poster had solved his problem, so I thought I would lock the topic.
Is this the new MO of the moderators...when you determine a topic has exceeded its shelf life you lock it? Just wondering.... Tom --"Who knows...the way things are going all our banjos may soon be pre-war"-- http://www.simonpurebluegrass.com/
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:21:36
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy
I locked the topic, The original poster had solved his problem, so I thought I would lock the topic. Nothing to do with free speech, nothing to do with anything except he got what he wanted.
I don't feel locking topics after the problem has been solved good for historical purposes. This means that we can use older threads to continue a subject rather than new threads being created over and over again based on the same topic. Yielding in more content rich threads. The other thing to note was that the subject header was changed. Was this because it used the word "pathetic" in the original? This appeared to me, just in my opinion, that it was about more than just the problem being solved, hence my reaction in creating this thread. Interested in hearing your thoughts. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Poppy - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:33:30
I changed it because why start a post asking for trouble, and if you read the way folks responded to it and the original post it was clear that it wasn't a problem but more of his opinion. If they started a post and titled it"SO and SO is pathetic" I would have 50 e-mails so fast! So why should a business be any different? I have had remails complaining abut ALOT less. Do I worry that I will step on a few toes when I make a decision, not really.
Now if you have any more questions send them in PMs. I made a decision that was changed, no big deal,
"What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg
kevin0461 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:35:46
Better watch it Dubz... Poppy may lock this one too!!! Good for you taking a stand against the mods. I'm totally in agreement that they're sometimes too quick to lock a topic only seemingly sometimes just to do it because they have the power.
Eric... you did the right thing by unlocking that topic. Some topics need to die a slow painful death!!!
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:39:33
Poppy's right on the PM's. I try that when needing an explanation from a mod, and things get resolved without a needless run-on of often irrelevant comments.
Bill
kjskipper - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:42:34
Dubz, did you or any of the other posters complaining about censorship on this site bother to thank Eric for unlocking the thread that you referenced in your original post? Did you see his reply above where he stated that he unlocked the thread, and was working with the moderators to have fewer locks on threads?
I cannot understand why, after Eric's reply above, people are still belly-aching about this. People are so quick to point out the negative of any service, but slow when it comes to recognizing good service, if that good service gets recognized at all.
Hey Eric, THANK YOU for unlocking that thread, and promoting an open-discussion environment here. This and everything else you do for our community here is appreciated and does not go unnoticed.
--Ken Skipper
Edited by - kjskipper on 11/12/2009 17:47:26
kevin0461 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:46:18
quote:
needless run-on of often irrelevant comments
Who is to say what is relevant and irrelevant? What is wrong with the free flow of information/ideas/comments??? That is what makes our society great... that where innovation thrives!!
KE - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:51:34
quote:
Originally posted by schlange
Actually, it's unlocked again.
I'm working with the mods to try to lock FEWER threads. Just because a thread's original question has been answered doesn't mean it needs to be locked...I prefer to let them die naturally. And that's what we'll do with this thread, unless things get out of hand. I see nothing wrong with discussing a store's shipping policies on this forum.
You da man!
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:55:13
quote:
Now if you have any more questions send them in PMs. I made a decision that was changed, no big deal,
While I obviously don't agree with the decisions, I don't have any more questions, but I will make the point that I think it was necessary that I laid the cards on the table here in a thread rather than a PM to a moderator, so that people can voice their opinions which can be used to further improve the member experience. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
kevin0461 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:56:01
Maybe there should also be a set of rules written for the moderators to follow... like what constitutes locking a thread. Just a suggestion... 
kevin0461 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:57:55
quote:
While I obviously don't agree with the decisions, I don't have any more questions, but I will make the point that I think it was necessary that I laid the cards on the table here in a thread rather than a PM to a moderator, so that people can voice their opinions which can be used to further improve the member experience.
Dubz... u da man too!!
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 18:01:22
quote:
Dubz... u da man too!!
Haha cheers Kevin! I should also thank Eric for unlocking the topic. My apologies for not thanking sooner in the thread. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 18:04:49
quote:
Originally posted by kevin0461
Maybe there should also be a set of rules written for the moderators to follow... like what constitutes locking a thread. Just a suggestion...
Yep, awesome idea. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Poppy - Posted - 11/12/2009: 18:39:12
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz
quote:
Originally posted by kevin0461
Maybe there should also be a set of rules written for the moderators to follow... like what constitutes locking a thread. Just a suggestion...
Yep, awesome idea.
Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
I suggest you vol to become a moderator. Just a suggestion... "What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg
Tom Robison - Posted - 11/12/2009: 18:50:18
quote:
Originally posted by kjskipper
Dubz, did you or any of the other posters complaining about censorship on this site bother to thank Eric for unlocking the thread that you referenced in your original post?
Why...yes I did...several hours before your post.
Thanks for asking....
Tom--"Who knows...the way things are going all our banjos may soon be pre-war"-- http://www.simonpurebluegrass.com/
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 19:03:13
quote:
I suggest you vol to become a moderator. Just a suggestion...
If time permitted I would be the first to put my hand up. Being a software developer of website backend/eCommerce systems, I think I have accumulated a significant amount of knowledge on the workings of a website/web forums, to be able to comment as I have in a thread like this, and would love to contribute in a technical way, unfortunately I am busy developing my current projects. Eric does a fantastic job on this family of sites as we all can agree. I hope you have not taken this as a personal attack on your abilities as a moderator. I was just giving feedback on my experience as a paying member, something as we all agree, we are all entitled to do. As a moderator I would expect the type of feedback as expressed in this thread as it comes with the territory. This topic has deviated so far from my original point its disappointing. I might have to have my words parsed by a political speech writer so im not taken out of context in the future. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Edited by - Dubz on 11/12/2009 19:07:50
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/12/2009: 19:09:54
I don't think Eric should have posted that he was going to "work with the Mods" for all the membership to read. It's as much as a reprimand that all the members can see.
That post has done nothing but undermined what little authority the Mods have left and it opened the door for the membership to dog pile on the Mods.
BTW Dubz, there's no such thing as a paying member and just because one belongs to the union doesn't give anyone more pull then another member. Or at least thats the way it was when I was a BHO Mod.
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
Edited by - Nosferatu on 11/12/2009 19:14:45
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 19:30:08
quote:
BTW Dubz, there's no such thing as a paying member and just because one belongs to the union doesn't give anyone more pull then another member. Or at least thats the way it was when I was a BHO Mod.
I agree, but I don't recall saying or implying that it gives me extra power. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Edited by - Dubz on 11/12/2009 19:30:49
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/12/2009: 19:39:59
"I was just giving feedback on my experience as a paying member" -- Dubz
Sure implyed something there because you did say, "paying member." IF you didn't mean anything by it whay did you say it?
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
Edited by - Nosferatu on 11/12/2009 19:43:10
Dubz - Posted - 11/12/2009: 20:16:26
While it does not give me more power it highlights the fact that union members pay money to help maintain the site and have some improvements made that they suggest and make valid. All my comments in this thread have been based around decisions in the mechanics of the forum environment and bringing to the table suggestions on how to address those. I also said that we are ALL entitled to do it, meaning ALL members, paying or non paying.
Why do we become paying members? So that we contribute to seeing this thing develop into what we hope it might be.
Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Edited by - Dubz on 11/12/2009 20:27:00
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/13/2009: 07:52:00
There's no such thing as a "Paying Member." You've only joined a "club" as it were.
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
Edited by - Nosferatu on 11/13/2009 07:52:41
Thor - Posted - 11/13/2009: 07:58:08
quote:
Originally posted by kevin0461
quote:
needless run-on of often irrelevant comments
Who is to say what is relevant and irrelevant? What is wrong with the free flow of information/ideas/comments???
That is what makes our society great... that where innovation thrives!!
I like pie.
p.s.: What makes for a "great society" doesn't necessarily make for a great internet forum.
Banjophobic - Posted - 11/13/2009: 10:30:45
Im getting a couple new boxes of popcorn ready for this one.....I ate up my other 3 boxes reading that "Huber H-30 thread"...
On the serious side of this, Some folks here tend to confuse "freedom of speech" with "Slander","heresay","inuendo" ,and just being downright hateful . I dont think our forefathers intended freedom of speech to go as far into the negative ,as we have taken it today. Im not trying to be political, just make a common sense commentary.
Disagreements can be better solved by the parties involved working it out amonst themselves. Many times rants are disquised as "helping fellow hangout members", when its easy to see that its just an attempt to form a "lynch mob". Othertimes, folks have a personal grudge/gripe that gets played out here and we're invited to join. Its funny, to me, for awhile, then it gets old and unsettling as the level of disgust builds and things get really ugly. Seems like some folks are on the verge of a nervouse breakdown or have chips the size of Texas on their shoulder about something. Whatever it is, it can bring everything down in a hurry if left unchecked. I applaud the mods for trying to keep this place sane. Anyone remember the other forum sites, like "Bluegrass-L"? Heck, you'd have to wear kevlar body armour just to say you dont like peanut butter in your chocolate( which is delicious, BTW and only a nincompoop would argue that)
If we all would just think before we type and hit that 'reply to' button, the mods jobs would be alot easier and I could stop gaining all this popcorn weight......
Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/13/2009 10:33:23
gottasmilealot - Posted - 11/13/2009: 13:27:22
Well, I'm extremely disappointed that some feel they can constantly tell Eric how to run his site. So, while we're all being extremely disappointed, perhaps being nice would be a good approach. Everyone have a nice weekend!
Keith
Edited by - gottasmilealot on 11/13/2009 13:27:49
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/13/2009: 13:41:40
Eric made the right call. Shows why he's da man.
There have been a number, not a high number, of topics locked lately and not because they broke any rules but because the mod had the opinion they should be locked.'That aint quite right and Eric sees that.
Smart fellow that Eric.
I don't see where any mod was being disciplined or whatever.
"Working with" means any number of things and in this case it just means communication.
Communication is a fine thing.
Jbanjoist
I'm a NECHVILLIAN!
EDUMACATE YOSEF!
You don't know until you KNOW.
BanjoPicker96 - Posted - 11/13/2009: 14:20:45
This does not help the sitchiation any, but, maybe we should all post less and pick more.
Just my thoughts...
"There once was a picker named Bruno
who said "If there's one thing I do know,
guitars are fine,
and mandolins devine,
but banjos are numero uno"
Forever Bluegrass.
Dubz - Posted - 11/13/2009: 15:04:19
quote:
Originally posted by Nosferatu
There's no such thing as a "Paying Member." You've only joined a "club" as it were.
You again continue to take me out of context. If I was to say "Union member" it would result in the same underlying meaning, being an individual who has payed money to help keep the site going, verses an individiual who has not payed any money to use the site. I will further make clear, like my previous responses, that I refer to the term loosely as a highlight to paying to see improvements or suggestions made to further improve the member experience. That's why most clubs have fee's. I never made the intent that one who is paying is all high and mighty above another. It is simply a HIGHLIGHT to the context of my point and was never a material argument in my statement but it resulted in it being used as a counter point against the initial topic in this thread, that thanks to comments like this, has deviated far from the point, been a waste of everyone's time and unproductive. I don't know why I bothered to make a thread to have an issue looked at by all the members, to then have it shot down in flames by using numerous pointless counter arguments around some underlying non existent sub-context in the wording of my material. I don't have an issue if you don't agree with the initial point I was addressing, but lets keep it on topic please. Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"
Nosferatu - Posted - 11/13/2009: 15:10:36
Then why don't you say whay you mean in the first place? I've tired of this topic....
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
5stringpicker2 - Posted - 11/14/2009: 07:51:35
Yep,like Eric said he would rather the threads die a natural death and I believe that is a good policy. Just because something is contravercial doesn't mean it should be locked or because someone thinks the answer has been found.
Besides if the advertisers are reading whats going on they might find there is a problem they them selves didn't know about and just might change the way they do business.
"There Can Be Only Only!"
(I )===='----<::)
http://tinyurl.com/c263xk
Getzik9009 - Posted - 11/14/2009: 09:28:24
quote:
Besides if the advertisers are reading whats going on they might find there is a problem they them selves didn't know about and just might change the way they do business.
Or maybe charge more for the headache. Page: 1 2
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