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grassrootphilosopher - Posted - 11/12/2009: 01:56:26
Y´all vintage geeks, this one got me going: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/...066e3651ca36
Aparently I´m too unadept to post a photo of the banjo here. So I put it on my site on the hangout.
The Christie´s auction estimate is for $20,000 - $30,000. That´s low, ain´t it; or is it? So let´s get out the glass ball and speculate about the going price, conditition etc.
Christie´s kind of seclusive concerning an indepth description of the item. What do you make of it (apart from the obvious like the 5´th string sliding capo etc.)?
Olaf
justryin2play - Posted - 11/12/2009: 02:10:49
Oh boy....., I'm sure this is a missing link in someone's collection.
This will be fun to watch....
Surveyor - Posted - 11/12/2009: 05:54:08
Wow, thanks for sharing. The Deering banjo looks like a Maple Blossom but with his wood tone ring. Cool Stuff.
Mr. B
Wind me up and watch me go!
Trashbanjo - Posted - 11/12/2009: 06:38:27
I wonder what the RB-18 is worth without Johns name attached to it?
"Pick it right or pick through it,just don't stop".
Vic Jenkins
f5loar - Posted - 11/12/2009: 07:19:18
That's a double whammy celebrity banjo..... Hartford and Sprung!
My question would be is it a real RB or a TB/PB conversion to 5 string.
They may play into the low estimate and they just aren't saying.
The truss rod cover does not look original to me for a prewar anything Gibson.
Sprung knew all about getting 5 string necks made back then.
Tom Isenhour
RB3Banjo - Posted - 11/12/2009: 07:49:07
The several other 413's on Banjophiles are Style 1.
RB
RB3WREATH - Posted - 11/12/2009: 09:05:27
The transition of the neck at the 5th string looks like a repro as well as the fit at the hoop
Joe
BanjoLink - Posted - 11/12/2009: 09:31:14
Christies' is very likely to leave out critical details. I would not bid on anything from them unless I had inspected it personally or got a report from someone I trusted.
f5loar - Posted - 11/12/2009: 13:18:33
So is it way low if it is indeed a repo neck? Me thinks it is.
In fact are we even sure it is a gold 18? Roger was the first person I knew back in the 60's that could get your mother gold plated for a price. Heck he was selling gold plated National finger picks back then and I still got a pair. Roger knew a gold plater and he would send over all types of parts to get them gold plated and it didn't cost anymore to throw in a few dozen finger picks. Could be a TB7 that Roger had gold plated and engraved and repo 5 neck to change to 18 specs.
Roger was also the first person I knew of that had 4 keith/scruggs/bump tuners and a set of Scruggs cam tuners on his banjo and knew how to use all 6 in a tune.
Amazing to watch even harder to follow(I use to pick mandolin with Roger in the old days).
Tom Isenhour
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/12/2009: 13:35:11
I didn't want to sign up for Christie's, so I didn't read the condition report. I'll bet that reveals why the estimate's so low. The folks at Christie's aren't stupid; I expect they well know what the banjo should bring, and why.
Bill
Darcy - Posted - 11/12/2009: 13:39:15
I'm more interested in the 1947 D-18 owned by Hank Williams. Christmas is just around the corner *hint hint*
bobbybanjo - Posted - 11/12/2009: 14:23:11
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
I didn't want to sign up for Christie's, so I didn't read the condition report. I'll bet that reveals why the estimate's so low. The folks at Christie's aren't stupid; I expect they well know what the banjo should bring, and why.
Bill
Often pre sale auction estimates are low to encourage bidders to participate. Anyhow, here is a little more info on the condition: The serial number 413-2 would suggest the year of manufacture as 1936 it is believed that the first Style 18's were introduced in 1937. It is commonly believed that Gibson did not ship any RB-18's until 1938 through 1940. The model was discontinued in 1943. The tone rim holes, which should measure 1/8 inches (4 mm) in diameter, have been opened and now measure 7/32 inches (6 mm). A 1/8 inch deep channel has been cut into the inside lip of the resonator that is 5/8" wide by 1" long probably to facilitate a pickup. There is obvious evidence that the tuners have been changed and the peghead is now mounted with gold-plated planetary machines. There is overspray on the back of the neck in the playing area. The hardware has probably been re-plated. The 5th string nut has been removed and replaced with a sliding 5th string capo.
Haskells RB3 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:39:12
Do you remember when and how much it was when Gruhn had it?
plunka5 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 16:54:49
That is one cool banjo!
"do you have room in your heart for the five-string banjo?"
John Hartford
BanjoLink - Posted - 11/12/2009: 17:11:38
Bill is correct about Christies. Quite frankly I am surprised that they even included a condition report. When they do, they usually leave out a number of important details. They are not stupid (crooked maybe - i.e price fixing), but that doesn't mean they have your best interest at heart!
grassrootphilosopher - Posted - 11/13/2009: 01:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by El Dobro
quote:
Originally posted by Haskells RB3
Do you remember when and how much it was when Gruhn had it?
IIRC, Gruhn had it for $12,000 and Sprung had it for $1600.
Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/pasttimesbluegrass
And when did Gruhn have it? Seems that if it were an RB and - mostly - untampered with the price would be ridiculously low. If it were a TB or the likes even without the original neck it appears to be on the low end (if the rest is unmaimed). Now with Tom´s interesting background quotes it might as well be that some of you may just go to Christie´s and check the banjo out. I´d be interested in a report. Now with Hank´s 1947 D-18... The estimate is purely due to the celebrity factor. A nice 1947 D-18 brings around 7.000 to 8.000 USD on a good day. For 7 k there´s a bunch of possibly better choices out there (like a Bannerhead Gibson etc.). Olaf
f5loar - Posted - 11/13/2009: 11:51:12
Their detailed description sure leaves a lot to be desired. Has anyone seen any better photos for more detail? From what I see in the one photo and read in the description here is what is wrong with it:
Wrong tuners, wrong truss rod cover, Gibson logo "S" and "n" don't look just right,
nut looks to thin, fingerboard does not look arched nor the bridge, tailpiece not right, thumb screws not right, holes in tone ring not right size, serial no. not listed in known examples of RB18s in Mills book, overspray, may have been replated , so one must ask what else is wrong with it being a true RB18 and how much are they not telling in their detailed description? Just another Gibson "parts" banjo? Just about everything I listed here leads one to believe it may be TB/PB conversion from an 18. I really don't know but I would think some of the guys here would know and at least give us a "real deal" stamp of approval here before the bidding starts.
Tom Isenhour
bobbybanjo - Posted - 11/13/2009: 12:35:04
The condition report is in my post above.
f5loar - Posted - 11/13/2009: 14:26:45
Exactly. There is no mention of the truss rod cover being a 60's cover or the TP being replaced. These are obvious changes. When you read there condition/description report it is as if they are not so sure about it either. "probably been replated" is not very sure.
No mention of fingerboard being flat or arched.
Tom Isenhour
black flag - Posted - 11/13/2009: 19:21:27
Didn't Harry West also have it at some point?
Chris
We are here on earth to do good for others.
What the others are here for, I don't know.
--W.H. Auden
f5loar - Posted - 11/13/2009: 20:48:32
That's why I mentioned the Mills book since it is pretty recent. You would think an all original RB18 with a high celebrity profile ownership as John Hartford would be in his list of original numbers. The fact it goes back to Sprung in 1968 does not keep it away from repo neck adaption from a TB/PB/GB. Sprung knew where to get necks made back in the early 60's. It's rather strange not one person here has come forth to certify this is an original RB18 flathead 5 string.
Tom Isenhour
RB3WREATH - Posted - 11/14/2009: 04:13:54
It is important to remember that all auction houses put up items with a low estimate. This ensures that when they sell it ,they get a rating of " 80% of all lots sold for over the estimates" They know what it is and what it will sell for. This way they are heros in the sellers eyes. It has been messed with and I see this selling for 68K plus the buyers premium. If it is sold as a real 5 string add 40K to the bill
Joe
Joe Spann - Posted - 11/14/2009: 04:37:37
The John Hartford RB-18 is an original, pre-World War II five string.
It shipped from Kalamazoo on 15 April 1938. It was returned for repairs in May 1939.
The very first RB-18 shipped on 15 December 1937 with the FON #413-1.
Gibson made exactly 8 original RB-18's before World War II, making them even rarer than an RB-Granada.
Edited by - Joe Spann on 11/15/2009 03:44:03
rb4player - Posted - 11/14/2009: 05:00:39
Thanks, Joe. Appreciate your authoritative inputs here.
Jim
RB3WREATH - Posted - 11/14/2009: 12:07:29
Now that it has been authenticated by Joe it should bring $168,365.00 with buyers premium
Joe
RB3WREATH - Posted - 11/14/2009: 12:08:05
Now that it has been authenticated by Joe it should bring $168,365.00 with buyers premium
Joe
banjodr - Posted - 11/14/2009: 16:07:06
Dang Joe you beat me to the punch. I played this banjo at the TBI in 89 or 91 I can't remember which one but it had a sweeeet neck and a really tight set up. It is for sure an original 5 string.
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
f5loar - Posted - 11/14/2009: 18:36:53
Can you comment on the TP? Is that the original?
Now that Joe has certified it let the bidding begin.
Did drilling out the tone ring holes make it "cut" a little louder?
Tom Isenhour
Mike Johnson - Posted - 11/14/2009: 20:07:25
I remember seeing this banjo in the possession of Curly and/or Amos Bigham over35 years ago.Idon't remember which one's house we were in at the time and it was unclear to me at the time whether it belonged to one of them ,having been acquired from Roger Sprung ,or if they were brokering it around for him.I do recall that there was some "problem" with the volume and tone of this banjo and the holes in the tone ring had been enlarged by that time ,this being part of its reputation.I recall putting a conventional resonator (laminated,dished)in place of the flat inside TT resonator with startling results,leading us to putting temporary spacers under the resonator brackets to increase the space between the resonator back and the rim and reinstalling the TTresonator with similar striking positive results. We had to assume that it had unfortunately not occurred to the individual who enlarged the tone ring holes to explore this before reaching for the drill .There was nothing wrong with this banjo then that a good setup woudn't cure.It is ironic that this was also true before the tone ring holes were enlarged .
Mike Johnson
Edited by - Mike Johnson on 11/14/2009 20:22:28
Joe Spann - Posted - 11/15/2009: 03:42:24
Tom,
The tailpiece on the John Hartford RB-18 is extremely rare, but catalog correct for this model. Having said that, the majority of the style 18's came with a much more common Grover De-Luxe (clamshell) tailpiece. This is Gibson we're talking about.
RB3Banjo - Posted - 11/15/2009: 11:39:37
quote:
The very first RB-18 shipped on 15 December 1937 with the FON #413-1.
413-1 is a TB-1 on Banjophiles. But, to paraphrase Joe Spann, "This is Banjophiles we are talking about." RB
Joe Spann - Posted - 11/15/2009: 13:59:44
quote:
Originally posted by RB3Banjo
413-1 is a TB-1 on Banjophiles. But, to paraphrase Joe Spann, "This is Banjophiles we are talking about."
RB
And Banjophiles is correct. The 1932-34 Factory Order Number #413 was a large batch of TB-1's. But the 1937 FON #413 was a very small group of RB-18's. It is well known that Gibson reset their FON's to 1 at some point in 1932. But what is not so well known is that on 7 June 1935 Gibson did it again and started re-using their FON's over again. Then, for each year afterwards (1936-1941) they did the same thing for a third, fourth, fifth time, etc. etc. Each time they re-used the numbers (after 1934) an alphabetic letter was added to the FON. So in the Gibson shipping ledgers you will see things like #413-A-1 and # 413-B-1 and so on and so forth. On the instruments themselves the letter is sometimes stamped and sometimes not. Original pre-World War II Mastertone banjos have been seen with a letter added to the rim stamping. The same goes for the guitars and mandolins. So, in the case of FON #413 Gibson used it at least nine times. Surprise!
Oldtwanger - Posted - 11/16/2009: 04:38:51
RB-18 tailpiece at Banjothon 2008:
I did not record the owner or the number.
Oldtwanger Frank
'Information not shared is lost.'
RB3Banjo - Posted - 11/16/2009: 05:45:54
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Spann
....
It is well known that Gibson reset their FON's to 1 at some point in 1932. But what is not so well known is that on 7 June 1935 Gibson did it again and started re-using their FON's over again. Then, for each year afterwards (1936-1941) they did the same thing for a third, fourth, fifth time, etc. etc.
Each time they re-used the numbers (after 1934) an alphabetic letter was added to the FON. So in the Gibson shipping ledgers you will see things like #413-A-1 and # 413-B-1 and so on and so forth. On the instruments themselves the letter is sometimes stamped and sometimes not. Original pre-World War II Mastertone banjos have been seen with a letter added to the rim stamping. The same goes for the guitars and mandolins.
So, in the case of FON #413 Gibson used it at least nine times.
Surprise!
This information blows every list with dates that I know of (namely Siminoff, Biggs, and Banjophiles, though there are surely others that I do not know of) out of the water. Unless I am misunderstanding what Joe is saying, this may be *the most important post in the history of dating prewar Gibson banjos*  . It suggests that knowing the number stamped inside a banjo tells you hardly anything about when the instrument was made.
Yes, surprise! And also shock and awe!
This information, now buried in a discussion of Hartford's RB-18, deserves to be made more prominently available, IMHO.
RB
bobbybanjo - Posted - 11/16/2009: 06:23:43
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Spann
quote:
Originally posted by RB3Banjo
413-1 is a TB-1 on Banjophiles. But, to paraphrase Joe Spann, "This is Banjophiles we are talking about."
RB
It is well known that Gibson reset their FON's to 1 at some point in 1932. But what is not so well known is that on 7 June 1935 Gibson did it again and started re-using their FON's over again. Then, for each year afterwards (1936-1941) they did the same thing for a third, fourth, fifth time, etc. etc.
Each time they re-used the numbers (after 1934) an alphabetic letter was added to the FON. So in the Gibson shipping ledgers you will see things like #413-A-1 and # 413-B-1 and so on and so forth. On the instruments themselves the letter is sometimes stamped and sometimes not. Original pre-World War II Mastertone banjos have been seen with a letter added to the rim stamping. The same goes for the guitars and mandolins.
So, in the case of FON #413 Gibson used it at least nine times.
The facts, as reported on the various serial number lists, are at odds with this explanation. If Gibson reset their FON's as many as nine times there should be up to nine sets of duplicate FON's or nine duplicate FON numbers with letters. In view of the fact that the various number listings do not report large numbers of letters added to the banjo FON's or large quantities (up to 9) of duplicate FON's, there would, therefore, have be be thousands of undiscovered banjos with either duplicate FON's or letters. Either that, or the explanation is missing something.
Joe Spann - Posted - 11/16/2009: 06:32:27
Bobby,
Perhaps what I didn't make clear is that Gibson used a Factory Order Number (FON) on every type of instrument they made. Guitars, mandolins, banjos, ukeleles and even amplifiers all had Factory Order Numbers. FON's were not confined to Gibson brand instruments either. They were used on everything Gibson made for other companies. Kel Kroydon, Recording King, Studio King, Cromwell, Kalamazoo and Capital brands all had FON's.
There are indeed thousands of missing instruments from the published banjo lists. But most of them aren't banjos. Does that help?
bobbybanjo - Posted - 11/16/2009: 06:42:01
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Spann
Bobby,
Perhaps what I didn't make clear is that Gibson used a Factory Order Number (FON) on every type of instrument they made. Guitars, mandolins, banjos, ukeleles and even amplifiers all had Factory Order Numbers. FON's were not confined to Gibson brand instruments either. They were used on everything Gibson made for other companies. Kel Kroydon, Recording King, Studio King, Cromwell, Kalamazoo and Capital brands all had FON's.
There are indeed thousands of missing instruments from the published banjo lists. But most of them aren't banjos. Does that help?
Yes, now it makes sense.
Oldtwanger - Posted - 11/16/2009: 08:01:47
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Spann
Bobby,
........ that Gibson used a Factory Order Number (FON) on every type of instrument they made.
Remember that according to Julius Bellson, "....in 1937 the Gibson Violin family of instruments was introduced. ......... The line included a variety of violins, violas, cellos, basses, bows and accessories." This line surely went through a great deal of FONs. I also imagine that all those depression era "survival" toys began production listed on Factory Orders. Oldtwanger Frank 'Information not shared is lost.'
Edited by - Oldtwanger on 11/16/2009 08:24:55
Joe Spann - Posted - 11/16/2009: 08:11:10
So true Frank! I forgot to mention the toys....those Gibson cost accountants needed FON's for every little Kala-Car Milkman too!
f5loar - Posted - 11/17/2009: 22:38:59
True they made a bunch of violin family instruments. I own a Gibson Bass Violin from 1936 with a FON of B-135-241. The 241 would mean the number of the 135 lot made and that's a lot of basses.
Tom Isenhour
bobbybanjo - Posted - 12/03/2009: 10:48:59
Sold: $25,000.
El Dobro - Posted - 12/03/2009: 15:12:55
Sounds like a deal to me.
Haskells RB3 - Posted - 12/03/2009: 16:39:27
Sounds like a great deal , I considered bidding but for some reason I thought the auction was next week, would of been a interesting one to bring to Banjothon. Im actually kinda bummed ( I didnt get it ) someone got a great deal at 25K, Im surprised it didnt go for more.
Edited by - Haskells RB3 on 12/03/2009 18:44:04
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