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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Foggy mountain roll question?


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cheeseforbreakfast - Posted - 11/11/2009:  20:03:24


Hey guys,
Just wondering if it is really necessary or important to play the foggy mountain roll with your thumb on the second string. I have been playing it index-middle index-middle rather then index-middle-thumb-middle.

The first way is comfortable to me. Is it considered a bad habit to play it that way? Do all pickers generally play it with their thumb on the second? Is this going to foul me up in the long run if I continue to play it this way?

Thanks,
Dan

Daveasti - Posted - 11/11/2009:  20:17:43


I do it that way sometimes too. Is it 100% exactly the way Scruggs did it? Maybe not, but I think you'll be ok if you do it IMIM. Don't worry too much about doing it EXACTLY like Earl, take what you can and use his example as a guide.


Edited by - Daveasti on 11/11/2009 20:19:00

stringman711 - Posted - 11/11/2009:  20:29:14


Yes, it is important to bring the thumb down to the second string. You will get used to it.

dana

cheeseforbreakfast - Posted - 11/11/2009:  20:30:37


I figured if it works for me than I shouldn't worry, but lately I've been really trying to perfect my timing and playing. I just wanted to make sure I'm not going to be hurting myself in the long run

PBGuardsman - Posted - 11/11/2009:  20:37:53


Hey Cheese,

Believe it or not, it is a lot faster to do the index-middle thumb-middle. Thats the reason it is normally done with the thumb and index.

And honestly, I have never used the index-middle thumb-middle in anything besides foggy mountain breakdown. That being said, it is harder to do it up to speed with index-middle index-middle.

Paul

"The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever." 1 John 2:17 (NIV)

Westvon - Posted - 11/11/2009:  21:14:38


Dana is correct, use the thumb, you'll get used to it. I think you'll find that you can play faster, and the thumb will give the second hammer on more pow!

David Russell

www.hotbanjolicks.com

cheeseforbreakfast - Posted - 11/11/2009:  21:52:29


Thanks, I guess I'll start practicing :)

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/12/2009:  00:34:59


Using the thumb there makes the lick flow better, especially on successive repetitions of the lick (as in "FMB" or "Train 45").

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/12/2009:  06:03:34


You're also probably playing the roll now at a speed where IMIM vs. IMTM makes little difference. But as you continue along, and start to play the roll faster, there will be a difference. It's much harder to play IMIM up to speed than it is to play IMTM. So I would recommend that you get the feel of IMTM from the beginning.

PaulB - Posted - 11/12/2009:  06:28:32


at first it took me a week or so using my thum on The 2nd string, after a while it becomes easy. paulb

Daveasti - Posted - 11/12/2009:  06:34:02


Ok, so I'm the oddball on that one, but here's another question about FMB: Do you fret the 3rd fret on the 2nd string when you do the forward roll part or do you lift up and play the open 2nd string?

And, PBGuardsman (and others), why do you only do the IMTM on FMB, but nowhere else? That lick is used in many tunes, if it's so important, why only use it there? I do it a number of different ways, just wondering what others do.

banjobilly32 - Posted - 11/12/2009:  06:39:55


Jimmy Martin used to tell JD "Put the thumb to it JD" The Foggy Mtn. roll sounds much more like Earl if you get used to using that thumb. Another place the thumb sounds best on the second string is in Old Joe Clark. There are many opportunities to use that thumb on the first & second strings. Pike County Breakdown is another place to employ that thumb!!
Jimmy was probably right!

Aaron Thomas - Posted - 11/12/2009:  06:59:26


I use the index finger some and the thumb some.. depends on what hits me at the moment... learn to do both!!!

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/12/2009:  07:21:53


If you're worried about habits, I would use the thumb.

The FMB roll IS a forward roll that starts in the middle. If you think of it that way, it gives a different perspective on the timing.

TM TIM TIM , TM TIM TIM (2 fwd rolls)

TM TIM T| IM , TM TIM T |IM ( | FMB roll | marked in the middle).


Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/12/2009:  08:09:13


quote:
Originally posted by Tweak

Ok, so I'm the oddball on that one, but here's another question about FMB: Do you fret the 3rd fret on the 2nd string when you do the forward roll part or do you lift up and play the open 2nd string?

And, PBGuardsman (and others), why do you only do the IMTM on FMB, but nowhere else? That lick is used in many tunes, if it's so important, why only use it there? I do it a number of different ways, just wondering what others do.
I think we have to distinguish between the roll itself and specific songs where it is commonly used. The "Foggy Mountain Breakdown roll" is very versatile. It needn't be played only on the 1st, 2nd, and 5th strings. Any place where the 2nd string is played, the 3rd or 4th string can be played instead. When learning to add melody notes to a roll, Pete Wernick recommends using either the forward roll or the FMB roll. That's because -- just as the forward roll allows you to insert melody notes on any of the "inside" strings (2nd, 3rd or 4th) on the 1st, 4th, and 7th notes of the roll -- the FMB roll allows you to add any "inside" melody notes on the 1st, 3rd, and 6th notes of that roll. And because this pushes the melody notes a little more to the front of the roll than, say, a forward roll, it gives a bit of variety to the sound.

So I think it's helpful to think of this roll in all of its applications, not just as it is used in Foggy Mountain Breakdown.

Glenn Tate - Posted - 11/12/2009:  08:21:36


The way you finally decide to do it, is your decision to make. I would add though, don't do it the way you want to, simply because it seems too hard to learn it the way it was originally written. You cheat yourself when you decide something is too hard to learn, and settle for something easier. Learn it the way it was written, then if you still prefer your version, then do your own version.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

Glenn

Chris Quinn - Posted - 11/12/2009:  08:29:43


Dana, (3rd post down) is right.

Learn IMTM TIMT

It can be done the other way. I did it for years. When I moved to the other method (IMTM TIMT), I noticed a different feel; and in music, feel can not be denied.

Chris Quinn
www.foggyhogtownboys.com

stringman711 - Posted - 11/12/2009:  08:38:54


I agree with Glenn. If you start taking "shortcuts" instead of learning the tune as it was written, then you will sound like 95%+ of everyone else out there. If, however you take the time and effort to learn every note as it was originally played, you will will be far head of the others. And the difference will be heard. If anyone thinks FMB is an easy song to play as written, think again.

dana

cheeseforbreakfast - Posted - 11/12/2009:  09:26:04


Thanks, I wasn't purposely trying to take the shortcut. When I first started learning I just assumed it was IMIM because the book I had was just tab without the letters to show you what finger to use. Thats just the way I got used to and I can play it pretty good speed, but in the interest of helping my playing I'll learn the Earl way.

Thanks for your input guys

Lexingtrick - Posted - 11/12/2009:  15:23:14


Here the index finds the second easier. I have a hard time to be sure that my thumb goes on the second string. No matter how much practice I give it the thumb miss fire on that second. Its true that the thumb gives it a fuller range field effect with that wack on the other side. The thumb pick give's to the string a different sound and that isn't just the second. Ie: Strum up opposed to down.

Poppy - Posted - 11/12/2009:  16:38:39


just slow down when you are trying to learn it, no hurry. It takes awhile, and it feels strange, but it will come.

"What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/12/2009:  17:11:03


"I think we have to distinguish between the roll itself and specific songs where it is commonly used." -- Rich Weil

This is a great insight, Rich. And I would go even further with it.

I play FMB with the thumb like Scruggs shows us. That is the way the tune is supposed to sound. To make the rhythm pattern right, you need to use the thumb.

But in other tunes the proper pattern might need a steadier delivery and the index finger would replace the thumb.

This general pattern is useful all over the neck. Often I choose the thumb when I am playing JD or Scruggs style, but when it's Stanley time I use the index finger much more to get that steady drive Ralph is so good at.

Leigh - Posted - 11/12/2009:  17:50:32


quote:
Originally posted by banjobilly32

Jimmy Martin used to tell JD "Put the thumb to it JD" The Foggy Mtn. roll sounds much more like Earl if you get used to using that thumb. Another place the thumb sounds best on the second string is in Old Joe Clark. There are many opportunities to use that thumb on the first & second strings. Pike County Breakdown is another place to employ that thumb!!
Jimmy was probably right!





Yes, indeed. Many uses for that roll WAY beyond FMB.

Leigh - Posted - 11/12/2009:  17:51:13


quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:
Originally posted by Tweak

Ok, so I'm the oddball on that one, but here's another question about FMB: Do you fret the 3rd fret on the 2nd string when you do the forward roll part or do you lift up and play the open 2nd string?

And, PBGuardsman (and others), why do you only do the IMTM on FMB, but nowhere else? That lick is used in many tunes, if it's so important, why only use it there? I do it a number of different ways, just wondering what others do.
I think we have to distinguish between the roll itself and specific songs where it is commonly used. The "Foggy Mountain Breakdown roll" is very versatile. It needn't be played only on the 1st, 2nd, and 5th strings. Any place where the 2nd string is played, the 3rd or 4th string can be played instead. When learning to add melody notes to a roll, Pete Wernick recommends using either the forward roll or the FMB roll. That's because -- just as the forward roll allows you to insert melody notes on any of the "inside" strings (2nd, 3rd or 4th) on the 1st, 4th, and 7th notes of the roll -- the FMB roll allows you to add any "inside" melody notes on the 1st, 3rd, and 6th notes of that roll. And because this pushes the melody notes a little more to the front of the roll than, say, a forward roll, it gives a bit of variety to the sound.

So I think it's helpful to think of this roll in all of its applications, not just as it is used in Foggy Mountain Breakdown.





Again, right on.

PBGuardsman - Posted - 11/12/2009:  18:14:20


Haha sorry I am clearly wrong in this case. I recant my earlier post. Thanks for correcting me! (no sarcasm)

"The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever." 1 John 2:17 (NIV)

dcb - Posted - 11/12/2009:  18:23:14


mimt ,,,,,1st string open (M). hanner on 2nd fret 3 fret, 2nd string (I) 1st. string open(M) fith string (T).
this works pretty good and can be used in alot of other tunes.
dave

1968 Gibson Bowtie

Poppy - Posted - 11/12/2009:  18:45:17


This is a very clear and easy to follow.
http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/157339

"What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg

Lexingtrick - Posted - 11/12/2009:  21:47:03


It don't really matter to play its original. Are they having fun or what :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icMT...next_from=PL

5stringpicker2 - Posted - 11/13/2009:  07:11:45


If you can play the song and it sounds the way it's suppose to, then play it the way that is comfortable for you. I use IMIM & sometimes I use TITI I don't play it the same way all the time because I play it with about 15 or so variations so it is easier one way to change to a variation that's different than the norm.

"There Can Be Only Only!"
(I )===='----<::)
http://tinyurl.com/c263xk



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