chrome - Posted - 11/17/2009:  11:42:34

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Human nature is a crazy thing, You can live beside someone for years and not like each other but when attacked we are brothers.

Cabin_Hill - Posted - 11/17/2009:  15:18:06

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quote:

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Posted - 11/17/2009 : 09:17:02

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As banjokid1 states," It seems to me that the main thrust of TML at this point is to diminish the ability of Saga to market these instruments." this gets to the bottom of the TML/Saga issue. The dubious claims of "stolen parts" and "seconds" by TML to explain how these banjos got to market, along with the "cease and decist" letter written by a law school graduate who hasn't even passed the bar yet, seem to indicate that TML doesn't have their act together and seem ripe for other companies to take advantage of all the expensive R&D TML did to launch the Recording King product line. From other posts on this topic, copyright and trademark infringement cases seem to be very difficult to defend in China, another blow for TML. It seems Flint Hill Banjos will continue to be sold until a legal precident is set, which will be expensive and time consuming. This has all the makings of a future law school textbook study on international business relations on what not to do. I'm just sorry that a company that put a good product, well researched and manufactured, that has a very good reputation in the acoustic musical instrument field, has to fend off these parasitic companies in China that can operate with impunity.


"Life Has Been Easier On Me Than Any Lazy Person Like Myself Has The Right To Expect"-Pete Seeger

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A cease and desist issued based on what? Presumed stolen merchandise from China?
The legal precident has been established. Saga has been in commerce with the product Flint Hill and the look.

Did Elderly drop the typical Saga line also

Cabin_Hill - Posted - 11/17/2009:  15:37:00

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If the so called incident was a theft by Saga, this may be the legal ace in ther hole for RK.

http://beijing.usembassy-china.org....pr_tsuc.html

On the other hand, Greg's past with Gibson could mean Grich could be sharing a cell with Richard.

I heard a rumor that Richard said he found all the banjos in a dumpster.

grich - Posted - 11/17/2009:  15:51:29

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That's just wrong ...... Cause Damn

banjokid1 - Posted - 11/17/2009:  16:22:16

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Jimbo53: Thanks for the welcome.
Grich: You're absolutely right! You and I know each other quite well, but under the current circumstances, I AM afraid to give out my name given the litigious nature of your employer. I really can't afford to be added to the ever-growing list of people that TML has advised that they will sue regarding this whole debacle. I will definitely "open up" when this whole matter is settled and hopefully become a valuable contributing member of BHO.
I sincerely apologize for not stepping forward at this time, but the aggressive tendencies of Music Link (based on advice from a REAL attorney), cause me to temporarily remain anonymous.
Let me reiterate my whole point for contributing. I'm just trying to play 'devil's advocate" and level the playing field because prior to my contribution, everything seemed to be very one-sided.
To you personally Greg, with whom my personal relationship spans 2 decades, may I offer you a free dinner on me at the next festival that we both attend.
Peace, out!
Banjokid1

lazyarcher - Posted - 11/17/2009:  17:17:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I doubt that anyone's opinion on this subject is going to affect this issue
one way or the other.
I think speculation is fun.We could all make a guess and see who wins.

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To heck with who wins that Steve--lets start a contest as to the TRUE IDENTITY of BANJOKID1!!!


I say...Tony Pass

Dave Jack

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Edited by - lazyarcher on 11/17/2009 17:18:26

rjanecek - Posted - 11/17/2009:  17:40:40

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I think its Grich alter ego

God Bless America

Rick

eagleisland - Posted - 11/17/2009:  17:50:28

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eagleisland

"I was halfway to Old Kentucky when the drugs began to kick in." - Hunter S. Monroe

grich - Posted - 11/17/2009:  18:02:39

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A Greg Rich must be allowed to speak his mind and use whatever name he feels like using depending on the topic . For the record I'm not going to buy myself a free dinner at the next festival when I can charge it to me .... myself ... I mean Banjokid1

rjanecek - Posted - 11/17/2009:  18:10:40

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"A Greg Rich "

that phrase looks familiar!! LOL

God Bless America

Rick

Retropicker - Posted - 11/17/2009:  18:35:37

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BanjoKid1 is a breath of fresh air. He didnt need a reason to say why he wouldnt post his name and personals with lawyers in the hunt. Pretty damned obvious. When's the last time Scott or Travis have chimed in on this topic? Never, even though baited.
They're smart, that's why. Bet it's killing them though.



____Keep the hay in Bluegrass__________________________

slammer - Posted - 11/18/2009:  09:43:43

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Is the consession stand closed , or just out of popcorn!!
Darn, just when things were gettin good.

Slammer from the U.P.
Tip Up !!!!!!!

sammys - Posted - 11/18/2009:  10:07:09

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Not to mention Cliff conveiniently dissapeared right before all this happened. I wonder if the Chinese mafia took him out...

steve davis - Posted - 11/18/2009:  10:30:32

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The Chinese Mafia can take me out if they pay the tab.

rjanecek - Posted - 11/18/2009:  10:37:11

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I cant help but wonder...

A while back I think there were some "new offices" introduced to some folks. I recall hearing that Greg moved into a new office or something?

wonder if they are linked at all?

God Bless America

Rick

FXHERE - Posted - 11/18/2009:  10:42:15

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Grich, did you have anything to do with the federal raid on the Gibson Co. yesterday because they were thought to be buying Ebony under the counter...Sound like the banjo building word is comming apart. Someone said they thought they saw you lurking in the shadows...Dang Arthur setting the house on fire with popcorn and now this...

Pre-War Picker-----New Banjo

BvilleDon - Posted - 11/18/2009:  13:41:42

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quote:

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Originally posted by rjanecek

"A Greg Rich "

that phrase looks familiar!! LOL

God Bless America

Rick

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Reminds me of "A Scrugg" from years ago, but I am wrong 100% of the time, only because that is the limit set by reality.

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Edited by - BvilleDon on 11/18/2009 13:42:37

lazyarcher - Posted - 11/18/2009:  15:57:30

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I smuggled some Rosewood logs across the border a few years ago. I couldnt sit down for a month after....

There is chaos in the banjo world. I predict before the end of 2009, the Grascals will lose their banjo player to Rhonda..who's banjo player will go with Doyle..who's banjo player will go with Grasstown...who's banjo player will run away with Deever...and the world will once again be in equalibrium.

chrome - Posted - 11/18/2009:  16:31:38

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Could it be the FHF? Stay tuned in for tomorrows episode....

banjoy - Posted - 11/18/2009:  20:50:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bradskey

Just my ignorant uninformed theory, I don't think the Flinthills can possibly be the same or as good as an RK. The cut-rate price can only be justified by A) they were stolen anyway so you don't have to charge much to profit, or B) find a way to make them cheaper....

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Or ... try this: C) The FlintHills more accurately reflect the actual cost of production through their lower price, and RK's are very, very profitable for TML.

No one ever picked up on my point made much earlier. The FlintHill banjos include a Vintage Series case made and distributed by TML under the Guardian label. The FlintHills are in this case, except with the FlintHill logo on the case. TML routinely re-brands these cases, and here they are with a FlintHill logo on them. I know it's just a case, but it's a re-branded Guardian and pared with the banjo. Cases made in a different factory. Now how does that happen? Hmmmmm.

Thieves just don't order a batch of cases from the company they're robbing from. No one else has noticed or discussed this. But it seems to me to point to a deal being cut, and out the door.

quote:

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Originally posted by wkb28791

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoy

Just for the record, I'm aware of what Greg Rich has gone through in the past and can only imagine what he is going through now with this. I feel for him on all that.........

--Frank

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I can't feel to sorry for them. They left the US to avoid paying fair wages so they're getting what they paid for.

Regards,
wkb28791

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Can't argue with that. I didn't really say I was sorry for grich. My earlier posts took him to task and challenged some assumptions. I just feel for all the stupidity surrounding this issue. Maybe I shouldn't.

Steve's P. letter did not explain much, but raised more questions than it answered. In his letter Steve strongly implies that FlintHills are from stolen goods and strongly implies that anyone selling them is dealing in stolen goods. But, he never actually says that. He just implies it. I pointed out that these banjos were legally imported into this country, through an established distributor and network of dealers. I pointed out 5 pages ago that TML was trying to taint the FlintHill debate and instead it was backfiring in them. Good move there. Good going.

As it stands at this moment, there are 19 pages on this topic spread over three different threads. As I indicated in my earlier posts, I can't really think of any other distributor that is claiming to be a victim of their own brand. This is all horse manure and is a self-inflicted TML debacle. That much is pretty clear. What distributor would welcome this kind of scrutiny? None would. Waaah. Boo hoo. Poor TML.

Also very clear to me, after lurking (yes, lurking) and reading more, is that the story has not yet been told, even after 19 pages of this back and forth. So I may not know what's going on -- as I have been told by grich himself -- but I do know, that whatever is going on, has not yet been fully explained, and what has been explained, is innuendo and "creative truth-telling."

All in my humble opinion, of course.

--Frank

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Edited by - banjoy on 11/19/2009 03:27:53

steve davis - Posted - 11/19/2009:  04:37:28

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When are Flinthill banjos going to appear on Wal-Mart shelves?

rjanecek - Posted - 11/19/2009:  05:05:31

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I seen one at Menards last night.....
















No not really.

Cabin_Hill - Posted - 11/19/2009:  06:35:31

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quote:

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Can't argue with that. I didn't really say I was sorry for grich. My earlier posts took him to task and challenged some assumptions. I just feel for all the stupidity surrounding this issue. Maybe I shouldn't.

Steve's P. letter did not explain much, but raised more questions than it answered. In his letter Steve strongly implies that FlintHills are from stolen goods and strongly implies that anyone selling them is dealing in stolen goods. But, he never actually says that. He just implies it. I pointed out that these banjos were legally imported into this country, through an established distributor and network of dealers. I pointed out 5 pages ago that TML was trying to taint the FlintHill debate and instead it was backfiring in them. Good move there. Good going.

As it stands at this moment, there are 19 pages on this topic spread over three different threads. As I indicated in my earlier posts, I can't really think of any other distributor that is claiming to be a victim of their own brand. This is all horse manure and is a self-inflicted TML debacle. That much is pretty clear. What distributor would welcome this kind of scrutiny? None would. Waaah. Boo hoo. Poor TML.

Also very clear to me, after lurking (yes, lurking) and reading more, is that the story has not yet been told, even after 19 pages of this back and forth. So I may not know what's going on -- as I have been told by grich himself -- but I do know, that whatever is going on, has not yet been fully explained, and what has been explained, is innuendo and "creative truth-telling."

All in my humble opinion, of course.

--Frank

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The Banjohangout, the #1 place to market a banjo. Business is all about making money any way you can.

BanjoLink - Posted - 11/19/2009:  07:40:32

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First, I hope my two Guardian cases that I turned in yesterday, due to the recall, come back with Flinthill's in them (or RKs - I don't care). Hope the new ones don't smell like a glue factory!

In spite of accusations of many of the posts being pure speculation, I continue to point out that the vast majority of them are just pointing out things that have been said in the past by the "principals" involved. You all know who I am talking about. I continue to go back to the story posted fairly early on that the "factory" was being built and owned by TML so that things like are happening now, along with quality control, would not be happening. That is either true or not true (which I suspect). If what we were told originially by the principals was not true, how can we be sure that anything they told us is reliable.

Would someone that knows (not one of us "speculators") please confirm whether TML owns, did own, or intended to own the factory in which these instruments were/are produced! I don't think this information is priviledged!

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Edited by - BanjoLink on 11/19/2009 15:30:29

axsis - Posted - 11/19/2009:  11:00:53

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This whole case has a "STINK" to it and personally going forward I will not be purchasing either brand.

steve davis - Posted - 11/19/2009:  14:43:09

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This is the problem with doing business long distance with strangers.

JCushman - Posted - 11/19/2009:  18:48:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by lazyarcher

Heres the truth..from the president of TML that was posted on another thread. I'm not sure you can debate it any further given its his factory and product.

Hello, I am Steve Patrino, president of The Music Link. I've met many of you in person, and wish I could be having this same discussion face to face, but I do want to put out the facts as I know them to help clear the air.

The Flinthill banjos are being advertised as our factory models of the Recording King RK-R80 and RK-R82. These are not models authorized by Recording King nor The Music Link in any way, nor are they built in our Recording King factory.

The Music Link built the factory in question exclusively for Recording King branded guitars and banjos. Over the course of a few years, we discovered that we were having both money and parts stolen from the factory. A lawsuit was filed in China, and the factory was closed and sealed by the courts. We opened a new, higher quality facility and stopped doing business with the original factory at the beginning of 2009. We have reason to believe that the stolen parts have been made into banjos that are only recently hitting the US market with our designs under different brand names.

Currently no exports can be legally made from this facility. This alone is proof that none of this has to do with any "commitment quantities." The stolen wood and metal components for entire banjos were in fact all pre-paid by us. In addition, while some of the stolen parts are of high quality, many also were pieces that we had rejected for not being up to our standards.
If any of the stolen Recording King metal or wood parts are being made into non-Recording King banjos, not only are they potentially in violation of the law, they also are certainly not being assembled by the same highly-trained staff - all the original luthiers are now employed directly by us at the newer facility.

Fair competition in this country continues to drive business and product quality higher and higher. Unfortunately, if any of our competitors are knowingly purchasing stolen product, it is a sad state of affairs for our industry. While The Music Link and Recording King will aggressively defend the rights of our original RK designs, we also will continue to move forward with new designs, rather than retread on other companies'.

I understand you may have more questions for me, but for obvious reasons I can't say more at this time. I want to thank this community and its members for the continued support over the years.

Sincerely, Steve Patrino

Dave Jack

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Here's Steve Patrino with my RB-3. Two examples of quality.

I called Travis at TML today on another matter, and couldn't resist asking him about the Flinthill ripoff discussed on BHO thread like this one. As always Travis was a diplomat, and referred me to Steve Patrino's comments listed on this thread and others. TML wisely has had little to say because of behind the scenes maneuvers that we can probably guess. But i want to say what a quality guy Steve is. (No suck up intended) Just that he is a man of integrity, he is a worthy leader for the leadership team at TML, and has built an organization with the zany designers and capitalists (whom we all know and love).

So this is one place where our internet community of pickers can use our network to support those whom we think are making good products in a competitive climate, and vote with our wallets to make life uncomfortable for those anxious to turn a quick buck from stolen parts, seconds, and shady deals.

I don't know the details.

Still I know who I've met, and I know how they have helped and supported artists, boutique builders, and other craftsmen.

A ripoff like this was bound to happen. My friends and I love our RK's, as I love my Chuck Lee, and the Harmony I learned to play on. And let those who have bought stolen parts out the back doors reap what they have sown. The dollars that they make in this way, will not replace the many dollars they will lose when their brand name is disgraced.

That's what I have to say, and I've counted to three.


wreap

steve davis - Posted - 11/19/2009:  19:00:33

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I don't think shoppers should be admonished for jumping on a good deal
especially in these tough economic times.
I would have bought 5 or 6 of those banjos if I'd had the money.
I could have opened a banjo school and rented them to students.
Paid for them in no time.

Maybe there'll be similar problems in the future when they're paying me
more for lobsters...one can only hope.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/19/2009:  19:54:47

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I think publishing the statement and then declining further comment is the way any competent businessperson would go about things. The companies will reach a conclusion, whether it's a settlement, a court order or something else. Unless someone has bought a banjo that someone else demands back, it's really not particularly a concern for the average picker, though it might be of interest.

grich - Posted - 11/19/2009:  20:13:26

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Thank you Bill

Lets hope Richard Keldsen and Steve Patrino can work this out between themselves both are well respected in the industry for what they have accomplished and this problem doesn't help either of us !

spoonfed - Posted - 11/20/2009:  14:41:39

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I wonder if Grich finds all this speculation and insinuation about RKs troubles as amusing as he once found all the gossip and speculation about Gibsons troubles ? No cartoons yet Greg? What does this mean ? surely you have not lost your sense of humour !

grich - Posted - 11/20/2009:  14:54:04

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When I lose my sense of humor I'll get out of the music industry , I just haven't had time do many cartoons in the past few weeks .... not to worry they will be back !

JCushman - Posted - 11/20/2009:  21:13:46

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Just looking back through some of my pictures to see if I can help someone rediscover his sense of humor.

DJMorgan - Posted - 11/20/2009:  21:31:08

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Almost didn't recognize the Grinch without his flamboyant. Outfit
Didn't mean to derail the thread. Still waiting on the Custom KI. Going for more popcorn.

Carita - Posted - 11/22/2009:  18:01:59

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Thanks again for all the postings about the Flinthill. I have been a life long bluegrass lover, but have just recently gotten a fire in my belly to play the banjo. I have taken my time and read hundreds of forum postings under lots of topics, but none have gotten my attention like this one. Such passion! It got me interested in checking the Flinthill out along with other banjos. My intent was to get a good American made starter banjo. Since I'm a newbee I had a professional banjo player play about 8 different banjos for me at the shop and the one I ended up getting sounded very close to the more expensive one, and way better than the "starter". He played all the ones I was interested in; from a Deering Goodtime 2, to Goodtime 2 Classic, other starters, to Flinthill, to Deering Sierra, to an amazing Gibson. I think I was at the shop for almost 2 hours. Well, I fell head over heels in love with a very expensive banjo (I'm sure you can guess it was the Gibson), then came to my senses and bought one I could afford and that sounded amazing. ;) I am definitely head over heels in LIKE with this one. It cost the same as the starter banjos, sounded so much better and almost as good as the Sierra, which cost over a grand more. I bought the Flinthill FHB-280. It is so beautiful to look at and so sweet to listen to. My heart went pitter-patter when he played it and I could afford it. :) I can't wait to go get it this week!
Now I just need a Banjo teacher! Hopefully the teacher won't be a Flinthill hater.
Carita

BvilleDon - Posted - 11/22/2009:  23:42:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by grich

When I lose my sense of humor I'll get out of the music industry , I just haven't had time do many cartoons in the past few weeks .... not to worry they will be back !

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The way things are, I would think CARTOONS would be optional and a THICK SKIN would be manditory! Glad you still have your sense of humor, even if there is no time for cartoons right now.

silvioferretti - Posted - 11/23/2009:  00:13:55

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Hey Carita, welcome to the HO. You say "My intent was to get a good American made starter banjo." and you got a Flinthill? Hmm... the road to hell seems to be paved with good intentions, but in your case I can but commend you and your pro banjo player friend for straying from your initial intent and choosing a good Asian-made banjo, which is not just a starter banjo at all! So I believe you are on the road to enjoying playing the banjo, which might be the road to hell in fact, but not for most people here on the HO!