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skylands - Posted - 11/10/2009: 19:17:54
Recently, I've been checking out the Recording King line of banjos and am impressed with what I've seen and heard. Last Friday I was in Gettysburg, PA for a battlefield tour and stopped in at the Arrow Horse Bluegrass store downtown. I was immediately drawn to what I thought were two "Recording King" banjos on display but was shocked when I looked closely and found that they were labeled "Flint Hill". They are absolute dead ringers for the Recording King banjos.
The proprietor said that he couldn't source Recording King instruments because of some legal issue about which he knew nothing. He just said that Recording King was embroiled in some sort of legal action and their banjos had been relabeled Flint Hill until things were sorted out.
Does anyone know anything about the status of Recording King or the true origins of the banjos labeled "Flint Hill"?
Cheers - Mark Clifford
"Life is short; live it up." - Nikita Khrushchev
D.W. - Posted - 11/10/2009: 19:26:14
You will find your answers (or some of them) at this thread:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=161670
----------------------------------------------
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
- Fran, "Strictly Ballroom" (1992)
barry - Posted - 11/10/2009: 19:38:41
What a rip off of a Recording King. I can't believe any dealer would sell them. I just think it is wrong.
D.W. - Posted - 11/10/2009: 19:44:49
Long story short- The Flint Hill Banjos are NOT Recording King banjos- and if the guy at the Bluegrass store is trying to suggest to you that they are then you should be shopping for a banjo somewhere else.
----------------------------------------------
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
- Fran, "Strictly Ballroom" (1992)
beegee - Posted - 11/10/2009: 22:03:40
 
__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/10/2009: 22:04:26
We just don't know what's really going on. I'm all for buying banjos on their intrinsic merits. You have to do what's right for you. It will all come out in the wash.
Bill
1four5 - Posted - 11/11/2009: 02:06:06
What's with that gap between the nut and the truss rod cover on the RK?
Dean
Bass Lady - Posted - 11/11/2009: 03:51:40
Dean, it's just the binding.
Bobbi
Windy Strings
Gotoh Banjo Tuning Machines, G7th Capos for Banjo and Guitar
Banjo Instructional Materials, and Accessories
Bluegrass and Clawhammer banjo taught in Northern Virginia
www.windystrings.com
Gillis Cashman - Posted - 11/11/2009: 04:25:46
Tell me if I may be wrong the flinthill is a copy banjo of the RK? Are copy banjos not common of any make? I would think RK would be proud they are being copied.
R Buck - Posted - 11/11/2009: 05:47:37
I see lots of Asian banjos. They all look very similar as far as quality and appointments. They probably came out of the same factory with different names It happens all of the time.
RobBob
Music; the best way to count time. It is a journey not a destination.
www.blueridgerounders.com
Kevin B - Posted - 11/11/2009: 06:20:38
quote:
Originally posted by beegee
__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca
I like the length of the truss rod cover on the right. Kevin ( )=='=~ 'Possum, It's what's for dinner . . ."
lazyarcher - Posted - 11/11/2009: 09:32:42
RK wasn't copied--they were ripped off...out the back door..stolen inventory....
quote:
Originally posted by Gillis Cashman
Tell me if I may be wrong the flinthill is a copy banjo of the RK? Are copy banjos not common of any make? I would think RK would be proud they are being copied.
Dave Jack
lazyarcher - Posted - 11/11/2009: 09:33:38
They wern't proud of copies--they were angry because of theft.
quote:
Originally posted by Gillis Cashman
Tell me if I may be wrong the flinthill is a copy banjo of the RK? Are copy banjos not common of any make? I would think RK would be proud they are being copied.
Dave Jack
barry - Posted - 11/11/2009: 12:31:47
[quote]Originally posted by lazyarcher they were ripped off
RK wasn't copied--they were ripped off...out the back door..stolen inventory.... How could any dealer sell them knowing this is what I can't believe. If this is true I would sent them back it is not right.
Edited by - barry on 11/11/2009 12:37:37
Bradskey - Posted - 11/11/2009: 13:45:35
quote:
Originally posted by barry
How could any dealer sell them knowing this is what I can't believe. If this is true I would sent them back it is not right.
I would tend to agree with you Barry. But I'm sure with most its just business -- that's the way of the world. For my part I just encourage people to buy the real deal, its in their best interest anyway and the bargains are out there right now. Anyway, I'm still enjoying my RK-87 #3 you setup for me. After almost 3 years it just keeps getting better, doubt I'm ever gonna let it go 
Flatbottom - Posted - 11/11/2009: 14:32:19
I am from that area and I was at Arrow Horse a few weeks ago and the owner told me that Recording King was going bankrupt and he was going to be receiving a few banjos that would not have the Recording King label on them. He also said they would be sold at very a discounted price. I didn't believe it was an authentic banjo when he told me. I am surprised he got them since he normally pushes Deering as a "real" banjo. The guy just rubs me the wrong way.
Edited by - Flatbottom on 11/11/2009 14:33:54
steve davis - Posted - 11/11/2009: 14:38:39
I like the looks of the Flint Hill peghead better.
prewartb3 - Posted - 11/11/2009: 15:10:28
quote:
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 14:32:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am from that area and I was at Arrow Horse a few weeks ago and the owner told me that Recording King was going bankrupt and he was going to be receiving a few banjos that would not have the Recording King label on them. He also said they would be sold at very a discounted price. I didn't believe it was an authentic banjo when he told me. I am surprised he got them since he normally pushes Deering as a "real" banjo. The guy just rubs me the wrong way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Flatbottom on 11/11/2009 14:33:54
You don't want to see that happen to any company. I hope that is a rumor. Plus rumors like that don't do any company good. I hope they settle the problem and get back on their feet. PrewarTB3
chrome - Posted - 11/11/2009: 15:37:34
I personally don't think that legit companies would put their businesses on the line if they knew they were selling stolen products and putting it on the internet. I think the cows have come home.
steve davis - Posted - 11/11/2009: 15:39:05
Super deal.
PyrPups - Posted - 11/11/2009: 15:45:07
Probably using Prucha hardware to get the price down so low....
lazyarcher - Posted - 11/11/2009: 16:36:02
Sorry...wrong answer.
quote:
Originally posted by chrome
I personally don't think that legit companies would put their businesses on the line if they knew they were selling stolen products and putting it on the internet. I think the cows have come home.
Dave Jack
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/11/2009: 18:38:37
Always gotta wonder why a company would choose to put their "logo" on a small rectangular inlay unless they were anticipating selling the same instrument under other brand names.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
Bradskey - Posted - 11/11/2009: 19:02:14
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Always gotta wonder why a company would choose to put their "logo" on a small rectangular inlay unless they were anticipating selling the same instrument under other brand names.
In RK's case its original vintage style... http://www.earnestbanjo.com/Recordi...n_9779-1.htm
Edited by - Bradskey on 11/12/2009 07:27:46
barry - Posted - 11/11/2009: 19:06:16
What a shame.
skylands - Posted - 11/11/2009: 20:21:09
It's amazing how fast these Flinthill bargain banjos are showing up at dealers. And no wonder! They're a sure-fire profit center for the retailer. Greg Rich and company may have had a great idea in reinventing the old Montgomery Ward RK label but, beware the Chinese factories. Obviously some unscrupulous individuals recognized a good thing, ripped-off Recording King's designs, and are very possibly getting the cloned instruments from the very same factory! I spent a couple of years working for a stringed instrument importer back in the 80's when the Koreans were just getting into the act and I learned a thing or two about the Asian factories. Currently, in China, it's like the Wild West gone Far East. Copyright, patents, intellectual property, et al. Forget it. Recording King could well go under just due to the legal expenses incurred trying to stop these thieves.
In conclusion, the guys at www.banjo.com are advertising the Flinthill as being from the folks at Gold Star Banjos. If that's true, I've got a whole new view of their business ethics. I also feel that the line I was given by that banjo dealer in Gettysburg last week was 100% bulls**t. (see my original post at the top of this thread) He's just trying to make a buck like the rest of us but he didn't need to fabricate a story about
Recording King's financial woes to justify selling the Flinthill.
Rant complete,
Mark Clifford
"Life is short; live it up." - Nikita Khrushchev
chissakid - Posted - 11/11/2009: 20:46:08
Good grief. Mark, if you're drawing conclusions from the misinformation that's been posted on this forum, then no wonder you're disillusioned. You're questioning our ethics publicly without even calling to find out what's going on. Call us in the morning and we'll tell you why we're selling Flinthill banjos.
quote:
Originally posted by skylands
It's amazing how fast these Flinthill bargain banjos are showing up at dealers. And no wonder! They're a sure-fire profit center for the retailer. Greg Rich and company may have had a great idea in reinventing the old Montgomery Ward RK label but, beware the Chinese factories. Obviously some unscrupulous individuals recognized a good thing, ripped-off Recording King's designs, and are very possibly getting the cloned instruments from the very same factory! I spent a couple of years working for a stringed instrument importer back in the 80's when the Koreans were just getting into the act and I learned a thing or two about the Asian factories. Currently, in China, it's like the Wild West gone Far East. Copyright, patents, intellectual property, et al. Forget it. Recording King could well go under just due to the legal expenses incurred trying to stop these thieves.
In conclusion, the guys at www.banjo.com are advertising the Flinthill as being from the folks at Gold Star Banjos. If that's true, I've got a whole new view of their business ethics. I also feel that the line I was given by that banjo dealer in Gettysburg last week was 100% bulls**t. (see my original post at the top of this thread) He's just trying to make a buck like the rest of us but he didn't need to fabricate a story about
Recording King's financial woes to justify selling the Flinthill.
Rant complete,
Mark Clifford
"Life is short; live it up." - Nikita Khrushchev
Good pickin', John Drummond
Bradskey - Posted - 11/11/2009: 21:15:16
Hey I personally don't want to impugn banjo.com, or even Elderly, etc, I like and respect them a lot. Although yeah, your Gettysburg dealer was BS'ing, but overall the dealers aren't the villains. Just making an observation on Saga, with their dealer/distribution network, doing there level best to get these counterfeits showing up everywhere (someone even mentioned QVC for crying out loud) and potentially hurting RK's sales with banjos that apparently cost them pennies on the dollar. Gold Stars and RK's competing for the same buyers is fair competition. This... hardly.
skylands - Posted - 11/11/2009: 21:17:31
John,
My public apologies. I'm not questioning the ethics of www.banjo.com. My poorly constructed sentence would imply that but I was referring to Gold Star as an importer of Chinese instruments. Perhaps everything is legit here so I'll apologize in advance to Gold Star and just keep my mouth shut. I would very much like to know what's going on with RK and Flinthill and I may call you in the morning for your insider viewpoint on the "misinformation" being proliferated in this forum. Thanks - MC quote:
Originally posted by chissakid
Good grief. Mark, if you're drawing conclusions from the misinformation that's been posted on this forum, then no wonder you're disillusioned. You're questioning our ethics publicly without even calling to find out what's going on. Call us in the morning and we'll tell you why we're selling Flinthill banjos.
[quote]Originally posted by skylands
It's amazing how fast these Flinthill bargain banjos are showing up at dealers. And no wonder! They're a sure-fire profit center for the retailer. Greg Rich and company may have had a great idea in reinventing the old Montgomery Ward RK label but, beware the Chinese factories. Obviously some unscrupulous individuals recognized a good thing, ripped-off Recording King's designs, and are very possibly getting the cloned instruments from the very same factory! I spent a couple of years working for a stringed instrument importer back in the 80's when the Koreans were just getting into the act and I learned a thing or two about the Asian factories. Currently, in China, it's like the Wild West gone Far East. Copyright, patents, intellectual property, et al. Forget it. Recording King could well go under just due to the legal expenses incurred trying to stop these thieves.
In conclusion, the guys at www.banjo.com are advertising the Flinthill as being from the folks at Gold Star Banjos. If that's true, I've got a whole new view of their business ethics. I also feel that the line I was given by that banjo dealer in Gettysburg last week was 100% bulls**t. (see my original post at the top of this thread) He's just trying to make a buck like the rest of us but he didn't need to fabricate a story about
Recording King's financial woes to justify selling the Flinthill.
Rant complete,
Mark Clifford
"Life is short; live it up." - Nikita Khrushchev
sugarinthegourd - Posted - 11/11/2009: 21:30:07
The Flinthills banjos are imported by Saga, which also imports Gold Star, Blueridge and a ton of other made-in-Asia brands.
The explanation that makes the most sense is the one we all heard initially: TML (Rekording King) got Chinese factory to tool up to make banjos based on projected sales figures of x thousand per month. TML now has a lot of inventory, as do their dealers, so Chinese factory says, WTF, and asks what they're supposed to do with all the banjos they're cranking out and all the parts they've got waiting to be assembled. TML ain't buying 'em as fast as they said they would, so Chinese factory takes them to NAMM or IMBA and shops them around. They make Saga an offer Saga can't refuse so Saga says, OK, we'll buy them at your ridiculously low price, put our Flinthill brand name on the peghead and send us a container or two.
Meanwhile, an as-new RK80 just went for $560 on eBay, I got a quote from Music123 for $880 for an RK80 w/ case and free shipping or $925 (!) for an RK60 deco King w/ case and free shipping...if the demand for these banjos isn't there and TML and the retailers are holding adequate or even excess inventory, what's a poor Chinese factory manager supposed to do?
Note that Kel Kroyden, Deering, Stelling, Huber, etc. don't find themselves in a jam like this. It's one of the big dangers of making yourself a middleman, especially one who's reliant on factories in China which are generally state-owned and where US IP laws are practically unenforceable.
Edited by - sugarinthegourd on 11/11/2009 21:38:50
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/11/2009: 22:26:10
The originals were also designed to be quickly converted. It is a quick and efficient way to keep product going out "to the trade." Branding can be changed in a matter of minutes, yet it looks much more permanent than a paper sticker.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
Bradskey - Posted - 11/11/2009: 22:52:57
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
The originals were also designed to be quickly converted. It is a quick and efficient way to keep product going out "to the trade." Branding can be changed in a matter of minutes, yet it looks much more permanent than a paper sticker.
Well, its a theory. There is the fairly obscure "Studio King" brand using the same block inlay to lend it credence, and may have been some other labels lost to history. Regardless, that was 70+ years ago. Being able to easily re-badge their house brand banjos (RK, KK, Kalamazoo, etc) was Gibson's idea (at that time). The point is, the modern RK logo block was not designed with the intention to be re-labeled. Whatever it may look like, I think its clear it's simply a reproduction of the original. The boutique Asian banjos seem to support a myriad of labels in all scripts and fonts without requiring a block of MOP.
barry - Posted - 11/12/2009: 04:01:19
You're questioning our ethics publicly..... John you don't want to go there, do you?
steve davis - Posted - 11/12/2009: 04:21:28
Who cares why...just take advantage of a good deal.
vtyankee5 - Posted - 11/12/2009: 04:27:05
Hey Brad can you make the pictures smaller. The screen won't fit on my 52"TV.  Thanks
Here's some of the history of the name Studio King.
July 23rd 1996 Gibson applied for the trademark name Studio King
October 21, 1996 Greg Rich dba King Banjo Co applied for the trademark name Studio King
February 10th 1998 Gibson was awarded trademark name Studio King registartion #75138574
January 19th 1999 Greg Rich dba King Banjo Co abandoned the trademark application for Studio King registration #75184628
September 6th 2007 Gibson renewed the trademark name Studio King registration #75138574
The latest recorded activity on trademark Studio King by Gibson was recorded February 5th 2009
Prior to any of the above dates of application there are no records of legal ownership.
I'm not sure if this subject should be a whole new thread or not?
Retropicker - Posted - 11/12/2009: 04:44:39
quote:
Originally posted by chissakid
Good grief. Mark, if you're drawing conclusions from the misinformation that's been posted on this forum, then no wonder you're disillusioned. You're questioning our ethics publicly without even calling to find out what's going on. Call us in the morning and we'll tell you why we're selling Flinthill banjos.
Good pickin',
John Drummond
Here's a concept. Why not just post the answer and put an end to all the theories instead of having to call for the secret answer? The result is someone posting "I heard that....". We know Banjo.com, Elderly, etc are reputable firms that won't buy hot banjos. At least I like to think that. The people that "know" aint talkin' and jump on anything they deem not true. RK still has my loyalty though. They done good. ____Keep the hay in Bluegrass__________________________
Edited by - Retropicker on 11/12/2009 04:45:34
Brian - Posted - 11/12/2009: 05:10:32
what he said...
Brian
grich - Posted - 11/12/2009: 05:55:51
Retropicker
I'd love to tell you the answers to all your questions but then I'd have to kill you ... it won't be to much longer and then we we all know the outcome of this Saga ... no pun intended
obxpix - Posted - 11/12/2009: 06:08:24
I second that!!!! Why not just tell us why you're selling them on here so we all don't have to call you in the morning???? If it's legit (and I'm sure it is) why can't it be publicly known?
quote:
Originally posted by Retropicker
quote:
Originally posted by chissakid
Good grief. Mark, if you're drawing conclusions from the misinformation that's been posted on this forum, then no wonder you're disillusioned. You're questioning our ethics publicly without even calling to find out what's going on. Call us in the morning and we'll tell you why we're selling Flinthill banjos.
Good pickin',
John Drummond
Here's a concept. Why not just post the answer and put an end to all the theories instead of having to call for the secret answer? The result is someone posting "I heard that....". We know Banjo.com, Elderly, etc are reputable firms that won't buy hot banjos. At least I like to think that.
The people that "know" aint talkin' and jump on anything they deem not true.
RK still has my loyalty though. They done good.
____Keep the hay in Bluegrass__________________________
*********************************** MILLS/SKAGGS 2012 ***********************************
Bradskey - Posted - 11/12/2009: 07:32:38
quote:
Originally posted by vtyankee5
Hey Brad can you make the pictures smaller. The screen won't fit on my 52"TV. Thanks
Yeah, sorry. Was a hi-res from Earnest's web site, I uploaded a re-sized copy for ya' Interesting stuff about Studio King, that anybody was actually bothering to register it in the 90s. Never knew or heard much about it, except that it was a pre-war house brand (for who I have no idea).
sugarinthegourd - Posted - 11/12/2009: 07:49:50
quote:
Originally posted by Retropicker
We know Banjo.com, Elderly, etc are reputable firms that won't buy hot banjos.
They're also Recording King dealers! Another reason the story posted here by TML makes less sense than the more reasonable rebranded-by-factory explanation. Do you think if Gibson dealers started selling identical knockoffs built with materials stolen from the Gibson factory, that Gibson would allow them to continue as Gibson dealers?
rjanecek - Posted - 11/12/2009: 09:06:28
lol
God Bless America
Rick
Goldstarman - Posted - 11/12/2009: 09:26:13
My Wife is a dealer for Saga and was told that these banjos were ordered and not paid for, then sold to Saga, they were going to be sold to someone so Saga bought them...If thatst he case then I dont see the problem?
"Aint" aint a word
Cabin_Hill - Posted - 11/12/2009: 10:15:29
quote:
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 09:26:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Wife is a dealer for Saga and was told that these banjos were ordered and not paid for, then sold to Saga, they were going to be sold to someone so Saga bought them...If thatst he case then I dont see the problem?
"Aint" aint a word
That's going to leave a mark. 
grich - Posted - 11/12/2009: 10:29:21
Let me see if I have this right so far
1. We built a factory to build Recording King Banjos & Guitars in China
2. We hired all the labor , paid for all the tooling , parts and trained these employees and everything else needed to produce these instruments.
3. We then decided in our own factory to over build our own product so that we couldn't pay for it !
4. Then in a surprise move we filed a lawsuit against our own factory ..... why you ask ? so the plant manager could then steal an undetermined amount of inventory ! BRILLIANT IDEA .... Greg please tell us more !
5. Lets not stop there fellers why don't we file a lawsuit in China against the plant manager for theft of parts and money which is now in the court system. OOPS bet he never mentioned that in the sales pitch !
6. Here's the best part ... we get the guy we filed 2 lawsuits against to sell these parts / banjos because who's going to really check if this guys story is the truth or a pile of S$%# ! After all who are you going to believe a guys selling stolen banjos with pending lawsuits or some poor guy who fell victim to a big company and he just need some quick cash !
7. Now that they have been sold to dealers we might as well let them copy our website description of Recording King Banjos almost word for word. I'm almost certain that's a common thing to do when your selling the same product as your competition !
What to do ..... what to do ........
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