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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.
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KE - Posted - 11/10/2009: 07:28:56
I'm an educated physical scientist (biophysical chemistry and chemical physics), but I'm weak on biological sciences. In particular I have gaps in my understanding of the principles and evidence for evolution. I have a basic understanding but would like to get a little deeper appreciation for how we arrived on the scene. I know there are well-educated folks here on that subject and I'd appreciate hearing from you.
What are some texts you could recommend based on personal study? Both conceptual/big picture as well as data. Light bedtime reading would be nice, but I'm open for some rigorous study as well. Thanks in advance.
heyjude - Posted - 11/10/2009: 07:41:35
The only thing if know about revolution is "what goes around comes around".
Jude
"Man can not live by bread alone, he must have peanut butter" - Kruger Bear
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain." - Kruger Bear
BConk - Posted - 11/10/2009: 07:42:00
Human evolution or just plain old vanilla evolution?
"Defender of the Sacred Cod"
Capio pisces, ergo sum
rinemb - Posted - 11/10/2009: 07:51:35
I would suggest, before this topic is locked, to read Darwin's "Origin of Species", for a historical perspective. And, read more on topic of "survival of fittest" concepts and accidental heridity concepts. Then there is much written on geological/paleontological evidence in the rock record. Some species can be scientifically traced quite well, and yes there are gaps here and there that allow reasonable counterpoints. And you can read the Old Testament. For lighter reading, there have been several good biographies written on Darwin and his works.
(As both a geologist and a Christian, I deal with this issue regularly, though I do not attempt to profess or condemn either polar positions.)
Brad
You may be man enough to take my woman, but you'll never get my banjo.
May not the incidence of success, nor the pretense of retirement-
Lessen the want of enlightenment.
BConk - Posted - 11/10/2009: 07:52:42
I can't really suggest any recent titles as far as human evolution - my own reading on the subject dates way back to several books by guys like Desmond Morris and the Leakeys in the 60's, 70's and 80's ...but for a VERY interesting read on human cultural evolution get a copy of "Guns, Germs & Steel - The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond.
I know it's not what you asked for - but I bet you'd enjoy it.
"Defender of the Sacred Cod"
Capio pisces, ergo sum
Edited by - BConk on 11/10/2009 07:57:38
MarkRough - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:00:37
Stephen Jay Gould is someone you might want to check out.
I especially enjoy Ever Since Darwin: Reflections In Natural History
http://www.amazon.com/Ever-Since-Da...p/0393308189
Mark
-----------------
Some days you're the dog. . . other days you're the hydrant.
clawfootcurt - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:01:12
The Genesis Flood, Morris/Whitcomb
Your talk talks, and your walk talks, but your walk talks louder than your talk talks!
dawgdoc - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:02:37
There are many different approaches to this. One is molecular evolution, ultimately what creates a modified phenotype. I find molecular biology inherently fairly boring (I know, I'm old school and out of date). I'm more interested in morphological evolution (e.g. why critters are shaped the way they are). This approach has been around much longer, obviously, since molecular data is pretty recent.
While I thought Steven J Gould was a rather odd duck, his lay person books on evolution are pretty good. He fouled up on some concepts, but he at least got people discussing the ideas. Good reads, but certainly not the be all of evolutionary concepts. I like Dawkins, but he can get a bit militant at times. Ernst Mayr is a real big name in the field for the past 60 years and his recent book is quite nice: 'What Evolution Is'. If you want a historical classic, Mayr's 1940s book 'Systematics and the Origin of Species'.
No reason for this topic to be locked; different ideas.
Moxley - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:13:11
Hi Ken,
The book I mentioned yesterday, 'One Heartbeat Away' explains evolution, or debunks it, better than any book I've ever read. I highly recommend you check it out. It's a quick read and you will gain much knowledge.
Thanks,
Doug
Louisiana Rose - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:19:01
I get most of my info on the discovery channels and National geographic
If you are gonna be out of date, do it right
KE - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:39:43
Looks like I'm off to the library!
Jude -- that went over my head; not sure I get it.
Brian -- general evolution; I'm just as much interested in plants as people. I read Germs, Guns and Steel the month it came out, and I think I'll give it another read-through.
Brad -- I'm fascinated by the geological record. After helping my son with eighth grade earth science, I realized how fascinating geology could be and how much I've missed. I think I've read, perhaps from you, that the answers are in the rock.
Curt -- I looked up your recommendation on Amazon. It's good to see all sides.
Scott -- I read the blurb from Amazon on Dawkins; sounds like an excellent resource, but with an attitude. I shall read it.
dawgdoc -- I used to devour Gould. One of my favorites was an essay on "Why No one Hits 400 Anymore" which dealt with improvements against an upper limit leading to a reduction in variability. I'm putting Mayr's new book on the top of the list.
Doug -- if it's in the library (and I assume it must be), I'll check it out.
Rose -- those are good channels, but I like to read.
Thanks to all! Any more?
twayneking - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:47:30
I used to leave my underwear and socks lying on the floor. My wife kept smacking me up beside the head and nagging me to pick them up.
Then I evolved!
I'm just sayin'
Tom King
Check my latest blog entry, "Schrodinger's Lawn".
Just click on my avatar...
Edited by - twayneking on 11/10/2009 11:01:09
xplainer - Posted - 11/10/2009: 08:48:48
Wow. Ten post and it's not locked yet.
Good for the BHO.
The only issue I have is that because of the rules, I can't argue the other possibility (which is where I stand). We can only discuss one side of the question.
None the less, I will stay clear and not get your thread locked.
And so should the other like minded people. 
-Jimmy
dawgdoc - Posted - 11/10/2009: 09:04:19
KE, not really an evolutionary treatise, but something you should consider: Steven Vogel's 'Cat's Paws and Catapults'. I'm actually teaching a senior seminar on this book next semester. It discusses human inventions and how animals figured most of these inventions out a long time ago. It's a fascinating read on the structure of biological design. As a physical scientist, you'd eat this up.
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/10/2009: 09:08:26
Sociobiology by E.O. Wilson puts evolution into perspective of social behaviors.
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins is another one focused on how dna expresses itself via life.
I cannot say anything else useful or enlightening about any of these books without getting the thread locked.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
KE - Posted - 11/10/2009: 09:24:42
Tom -- you're saying your wife is an evolutionary pressure? I can totally relate.
Jimmy -- thanks, I'm not looking for a debate, or even for opinions. They are already in abundance; I'm looking for information.
dawgdoc -- 'structure of biological design' My thesis dealt with self-assembly of biological membranes, in particular light-harvesting chlorophyll a in thylakoid membranes. Vogel's book is def. on the list. Thanks!
Mike -- Sociobiology is what started me thinking about the subject this morning, after reading in the Washington Post of a new book on empathy in animals. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sh...politic.html
Thanks again!
dawgdoc - Posted - 11/10/2009: 09:38:36
quote:
Mike -- Sociobiology is what started me thinking about the subject this morning, after reading in the Washington Post of a new book on empathy in animals. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sh...politic.html
Interesting article. If a single wolf can't bring down a large animal and it takes a pack, is that empathy or simply cooperation so everybody wins? I'm not convinced, but I'll have to go talk to my psych friends who study such things and get into a friendly argument as usual.
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/10/2009: 09:42:21
I'm in the midst of reading Ants (it's a long book) also by Wilson.
Ants are sort of a single organism.
In some species, the workers cannot digest the food they bring to the larva. Instead, they feed off larva milk like the queen like the queen does. Many colonies have multiple queens and there is correlation between behavior and how related the workers and queens are related to each other.
If anyone knows any reading on investigations into when multicellular organisms first started reproducing as a multi-cellular 'thing,' please let me know.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
JackJack - Posted - 11/10/2009: 10:04:00
I'm seriously thinking of switching to clawhammer.
Is that evolution or devolution? 
KE - Posted - 11/10/2009: 10:16:47
That may be convolution.
MarkRough - Posted - 11/10/2009: 10:35:49
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
I'm in the midst of reading Ants (it's a long book) also by Wilson.
Ants are sort of a single organism.
In some species, the workers cannot digest the food they bring to the larva. Instead, they feed off larva milk like the queen like the queen does. Many colonies have multiple queens and there is correlation between behavior and how related the workers and queens are related to each other.
If anyone knows any reading on investigations into when multicellular organisms first started reproducing as a multi-cellular 'thing,' please let me know.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
THAT is an awesome book! ----------------- Some days you're the dog. . . other days you're the hydrant.
gshall - Posted - 11/10/2009: 10:53:22
Wow, you're not asking much.
I've found Stephen Jay Gould to be rather erudite and long winded - a hard read. Origin of the Species is a good start, but a lot has been learned in the last 100 years. Ian Tattersal is a good read if you're interested in primate evolution (with an emphasis on Neanderthal).
One of the things that makes this a difficult subject is that there are so many parameters involved, and each theory addresses a couple of them (at most), so there is no comprehensive Theory. Evolution is "just a theory" the way gravity is "just a theory." There are theories of gravity (Einstein and Newton's in particular), and there's also a fact of gravity. There are many non-comprehensive theories of evolution, and there is a fact (that isn't entirely explainable by theories) of evolution.
Do a Google search on The Discovery Book Club and The Scientific American Book Club. They each should have a good selection of books to review.
I could be some 50 year old dude sitting around in stained shorts resting my pizza on my beer belly, except I'm too old.
Jerry
dat - Posted - 11/10/2009: 10:55:39
this is the closest thing I can think of, dust evolving into man
"And The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"
noli illegitimi carborundum
everybody needs at least one gun for every year old that they are, having a few extras don't hurt
Louisiana Rose - Posted - 11/10/2009: 11:00:39
I love to read too KE, but i don't have as much time as I would like these days and I can watch the documentaries while I am doing ironing and housework
If you are gonna be out of date, do it right
twayneking - Posted - 11/10/2009: 11:05:10
EVOLUTIONARY PRESSURE
I'm just sayin'
Tom King
Check my latest blog entry, "Schrodinger's Lawn".
Just click on my avatar...
Adam Kiesling - Posted - 11/10/2009: 12:14:57
I found "Song of the Dodo" to be a great read.
http://tinyurl.com/y9rlq8o
It's more about the idea of why some populations go extinct, but there are some nice parts about Alfred Wallace (a contemporary of Darwin).
Thanks for some of the other suggestions.
Adam
spoonfed - Posted - 11/10/2009: 13:00:13
Bill Brysons short history of almost everything (I think that is almost the correct title) is, as always with this author, a good informative read, moreover its amusing and very well researched, I think he is becoming one of my favourite authors too.
spoonfed
Richard Dress - Posted - 11/10/2009: 14:26:50
KE, since you have a scientific bent, it might simplify the issue if you take evolution as a given--I believe everyone understands that species change over time, just look at dogs and cows. The hypothesis being tested is 'natural selection'.
bikebum - Posted - 11/10/2009: 14:50:35
Something mutates. The mutation 'sticks'. That mutation mutates. etc. etc. etc.
10gauge - Posted - 11/10/2009: 14:57:50
I've read a lot of great articles in Scientific American.
Jonathan O'bug
Brian T - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:11:57
Darwin came home with literally a boatload of evidence for Natural Selection. The survivorship (to breed more) of those best suited to the environmental circumstance of the day. He sat on it. A.R. Wallace came to the same conclusion. He supported Darwin, who, at the urging of the Huxleys, dusted off a huge essay and published The Origin of Species.
Darwin proposed that new species mught appear if Natural Selection went on for long enough. In that day and time, he had no evidence for the availability of what we now call geologically long periods of time. In the interpretation made by the Archbishop James Usher, Creation occurred in 4004BC. This is & was Usher's determination, no-one else's.
Along come the geologists who were able to demonstrate the rates of erosion of rocks and such in the landscape (Lyell, et al). They showed that the processes must have been going slowly, but nonstop, for tens of thousands of years if not longer. This was the key bit which gave Darwin some hint that extremely long periods of time were in process. Gradual reproductive isolation and changing physical climates could (would? he was never certain) yield far different organisms from those of their ancestors.
Count how many times Darwin actually uses the word "evolution" in "On The Origin Of Species." Here's a hint: it's used less than twice.
Although I experience some relief now retired from 31 years of teaching university biology courses, I can't for the life of me remember the name of the major author of the first-year Biology/Science Majors biology textbook. Good treatment of this subject.
Actually, such a process is happening with dramatic speed to stickleback fish living in lakes on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Very carefully documented fo r years.
We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot
beeliner - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by dat
this is the closest thing I can think of, dust evolving into man
"And The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"
noli illegitimi carborundum
everybody needs at least one gun for every year old that they are, having a few extras don't hurt
Dat, I was thinking on the "dust" thing myself ! Evolution, No way. beeliner. Revis Martin. When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7 [KJV]
KE - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:22:05
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.
jbanjoist - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:27:12
All you need to know about evolution in one word.
Theory.
My theory about this asking for info on evolution is it's a protest of someone asking for info on an online bible study.
Same as evolution though.
Theory.
countdown to lock anyone?
Jbanjoist
I'm a NECHVILLIAN!
EDUMACATE YOSEF!
You don't know until you KNOW.
Edited by - jbanjoist on 11/10/2009 15:39:56
gshall - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:50:49
Newton had a THEORY of gravity. Along came Einstein with a different THEORY of gravity. Until the evidence came in and we knew that Einstein's theory was a little more accurate than Newton's WE STILL HAD GRAVITY. Even though we haven't settled on a single comprehensive THEORY of evolution, the FACT of evolution still remains.
It's a field worthy of study. More power to all curious minds!
I could be some 50 year old dude sitting around in stained shorts resting my pizza on my beer belly, except I'm too old.
Jerry
Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:55:18
Interesting, in the fact that now they have found 3 divergent lines of man instead of the two commonly accepted for years..
KL
banjo_brad - Posted - 11/10/2009: 15:55:38
Okay, Mods-
This statement: The book I mentioned yesterday, 'One Heartbeat Away' explains evolution, or debunks it
and this one: I was thinking on the "dust" thing myself ! Evolution, No way.
and this one: All you need to know about evolution in one word.
Theory.
Have evolved this post into an argument and it should be locked. The other one asking about bible study should also be locked. It was my impression that the only religious topics allowed on the Hangout were requests for prayer and short quotations in signatures, although I don't agree with the second one (and see no sense in the first).
Brad
------------------
www.PricklyPearMusic.net
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/5/ My ezFolk page
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/3371/ Tucson Old Time Music Circle page on ezFolk
http://www.totmc.org Tucson Old Time Music Circle Homepage
BConk - Posted - 11/10/2009: 16:05:58
quote:
Originally posted by banjo_brad
Okay, Mods-
This statement: The book I mentioned yesterday, 'One Heartbeat Away' explains evolution, or debunks it
and this one: I was thinking on the "dust" thing myself ! Evolution, No way.
and this one: All you need to know about evolution in one word.
Theory.
Have evolved this post into an argument and it should be locked. The other one asking about bible study should also be locked. It was my impression that the only religious topics allowed on the Hangout were requests for prayer and short quotations in signatures, although I don't agree with the second one (and see no sense in the first).
Brad
------------------
www.PricklyPearMusic.net
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/5/ My ezFolk page
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/3371/ Tucson Old Time Music Circle page on ezFolk
http://www.totmc.org Tucson Old Time Music Circle Homepage
I disagree Brad - to lock this because of the posts made in violation by a handful would only teach the violators that they can get threads locked in the future by breaking the rules. There's no rule against discussing the science of evolution - there is a rule against discussing the religious ramifications of evolution and the faith based counter arguments against evolution. To be fair - rather than lock the thread the Mods should, IMO, go back and delete the errant posts that bring religious debate into a question of science. "Defender of the Sacred Cod" Capio pisces, ergo sum
Edited by - BConk on 11/10/2009 16:07:40
J-Walk - Posted - 11/10/2009: 16:06:14
The word "theory" is often used by non-scientists to mean a "hunch" or a "wild guess." A good site that clarifies what that word really means is:
http://www.notjustatheory.com/
banjerman - Posted - 11/10/2009: 16:08:08
There is currently a paradign shift in this area due to the mapping of the human geneome. The study shows there are only like 24 gene differences between mice and men. Especially troubling for science are the frequency of random mutations vs previous beliefs of the speed of human evolution. In other words...the genome mutation occurance and previous timelines in human evolution are way off. There are checks and balances(chemical) built into the genome that does not allow for rapid or profound changes. The books will be rewritten in 5 more years!
gshall - Posted - 11/10/2009: 16:12:30
Some good points both pro and con for locking the thread. I'm glad I'm not a mod.
This is, however, a BANJO hangout...
I could be some 50 year old dude sitting around in stained shorts resting my pizza on my beer belly, except I'm too old.
Jerry
banjofanatico - Posted - 11/10/2009: 16:15:45
No one's ever shown a mutation that led to some kind of evolution. When human beings mutate, it's called deformity, and most people don't call it evolution. Same thing with animals. Animals don't morph into other animals. The whole theory makes no sense.
David
KE - Posted - 11/10/2009: 16:24:34
I suppose someone could succeed in getting this or any other thread locked if that is their wish. Unfortunately that would in effect be someone taking it on themselves to censor the exchange of good information by others. Please don't -- There are several people who would like to continue. Besides it would set a bad precedent.
Banjerman -- that's interesting information. Books <should> be rewritten every five years if we're learning anything!
Brian -- thanks for the primer. I wish I could start over again and go back to university.
I've got a library hold on several books; it's getting to be a long list and I appreciate it.
beeliner - Posted - 11/10/2009: 17:34:38
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
KE, since you have a scientific bent, it might simplify the issue if you take evolution as a given--I believe everyone understands that species change over time, just look at dogs and cows. The hypothesis being tested is 'natural selection'.
Dogs and cows only change by breeding. If you breed an Angus cow to an Angus bull you will get an Angus calf. Angus will stay Angus as long as Angus cows are bred to Angus bulls. The same holds true with all animals. beeliner. Revis Martin. When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7 [KJV]
banjo_brad - Posted - 11/10/2009: 17:44:12
quote:
There are several people who would like to continue.
In which case, I think it should be taken off-forum and discussed in private via e-mail between the participants. Sorry, I am a moderator on another site, and if either of these topics had appeared there, I would have locked them upon first seeing them. I believe they are in violation of the rules and spirit of the Hangout. Brad ------------------ www.PricklyPearMusic.nethttp://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/5/ My ezFolk page http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/3371/ Tucson Old Time Music Circle page on ezFolk http://www.totmc.org Tucson Old Time Music Circle Homepage
J-Walk - Posted - 11/10/2009: 17:45:42
Good point, beeliner. I never thought about it like that before. I guess that pretty much disproves evolution. Why can't the scientists understand that? Page: 1 2 3 4 5
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