buccaneer - Posted - 11/09/2009:  18:11:51

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Hi Folks,

I'm a banjo innocent, and I'm curious about a particular banjo, and what sort of music it would have been used to make. Some background; my Great-Uncle William was a Belfast boy (age 19) when he was killed on the Somme; 1916. The last letter that went out to poor Willy mentions his banjo waiting for him to play when he gets home. Of course, he never did make it home, he's still buried in France. My question is this; the banjo is long gone, and so is anyone who would have known Willy. So, if there is anyone willing to take a few guesses as to what sort of banjo music would have been popular with the teenagers of the era, and what sort of banjo it would have been played on? I know; big order. The family's never been anything but working class (no coat of arms for us, we're working folk) and so the banjo wouldn't have been spectacular. Music Hall? Minstral shows? Irish folk ballads (probably a mix, knowing my family). And would the banjo have been four string, or were five string available? Tenor tuning? Speculate away, I'll love to read it.

Truth is, I'm curious if a modern banjo is available that might work as a substitute; I might want to honor my Grand-Uncle by learning the banjo and playing a few tunes for his shade.

Best to you all,
Kyle

Kyle

scruss - Posted - 11/09/2009:  18:32:05

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I'm taking a guess here, but with a name like William, he was probably Ulster-Scots. Maybe some Scots ballads.

Probably not a five string. They've always been pretty rare over on the right hand side of the Atlantic.

--
http://scruss.com/blog/ - Hug a wind turbine today!

deuceswilde - Posted - 11/09/2009:  19:41:23

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Go here and search for "Tarrant Bailey"

http://www.britishpathe.com/

Then go here and watch some of the videos.

http://classic-banjo.ning.com/

Then go here and get the sheet music to learn how to play it.

http://www.classicbanjo.com/

By 1916 there is a slight chance that it was a plectrum, but it might be a little early for the fad to really kick in.

-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

buccaneer - Posted - 11/09/2009:  20:00:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by scruss

I'm taking a guess here, but with a name like William, he was probably Ulster-Scots. Maybe some Scots ballads.

Nope, as Catholic as Catholic can be, actually (the family's always been mixed between Catholic and Protestant, as far back as the records go), but not his- Most of the boys in his division were Catholic as well, and his school was Catholic.


Probably not a five string. They've always been pretty rare over on the right hand side of the Atlantic.


Thanks! That's helpful; any idea why they were so rare? Was it price, or nobody thought to sell five-string yet in the 1890s-1900s?
--
http://scruss.com/blog/ - Hug a wind turbine today!

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Kyle

buccaneer - Posted - 11/09/2009:  20:09:57

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[quote]Originally posted by deuceswilde

Go here and search for "Tarrant Bailey"

http://www.britishpathe.com/

Then go here and watch some of the videos.


Yesssir, will do!

By 1916 there is a slight chance that it was a plectrum, but it might be a little early for the fad to really kick in.


So people didn't pick banjos much? They were a strumming instrument?

I can see I'm going to have to dig deeper...this is gonna be fun...


-Joel Hooks



Kyle

trapdoor2 - Posted - 11/10/2009:  07:24:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by buccaneer

So people didn't pick banjos much? They were a strumming instrument?

I can see I'm going to have to dig deeper...this is gonna be fun...

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I hope you enjoy your search!

You'll find that at the time they were 5-string and picked with the fingers (two fingers and thumb). I would think it would be more likely that he would have been playing a locally made instrument, perhaps even one that had been passed down for a generation or two.

The music he played was probably a mix of his local traditional stuff, music-hall and minstrel stuff. There were many publications out there but he may or may not have had access to them.

Any modern (or vintage) open-back 5-string banjo would be suitable. String it with nylon and learn to play it in the "classic" style (which is what we call it now). Joel gave you some great starting points.

If it were my grand-uncle, you can bet I'd be paying his grave-site a visit and playing him a popular (for the time) tune or two! Look into the songbooks over on the classic-banjo website (http://www.classicbanjo.com) and you'll find many popular songs of the period (esp. the Turner's books, they're full of music-hall stuff from the UK).

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

buccaneer - Posted - 11/10/2009:  08:41:03

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[quote]Originally posted by trapdoor2


If it were my grand-uncle, you can bet I'd be paying his grave-site a visit and playing him a popular (for the time) tune or two! Look into the songbooks over on the classic-banjo website (http://www.classicbanjo.com) and you'll find many popular songs of the period (esp. the Turner's books, they're full of music-hall stuff from the UK).

===Marc

Actually, I did visit his grave in 2005; the first family member to do so in 90 years or so. I laid flowers on his grave, talked a little to him as gaelige (Irish Gaelic), and a little Maltese (G' Grandmother was from Malta) just to let him know he wasn't forgotten. Maybe next time I'm back I'll play him a song. I really appreciate the input; but per a previous poster, they mentioned five-string was rare? Ultimately, it could have been either, I suppose. I appreciate the nylon strings idea- would a natural head also help? I'm also seeing alot about bridges; do they matter as much?

Kyle

trapdoor2 - Posted - 11/10/2009:  12:50:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by buccaneer

Actually, I did visit his grave in 2005; the first family member to do so in 90 years or so. I laid flowers on his grave, talked a little to him as gaelige (Irish Gaelic), and a little Maltese (G' Grandmother was from Malta) just to let him know he wasn't forgotten. Maybe next time I'm back I'll play him a song.

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Good on ya for giving him a visit!

quote:

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I really appreciate the input; but per a previous poster, they mentioned five-string was rare? Ultimately, it could have been either, I suppose. I appreciate the nylon strings idea- would a natural head also help? I'm also seeing alot about bridges; do they matter as much?

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I dunno about specific rarity of the 5-string in Ireland at the time...but the 4-string tenor which is ubiquitous to Ireland these days didn't really get popular until well after WWI.

One problem is basic lack of documentation for the area. The 5-string was introduced to the UK in the mid 19th C.; by the turn of the century it was a very popular instrument throughout the US and UK with hundreds of makers. I just don't know anything about how popular it was in Ireland just before the war.

Another issue with "guessing" what he played is that the UK produced many 'odd' versions of the banjo, some with extra strings (up to 9) and some with odd layouts. These oddities are quite rare in the US, but were common enough in the UK to have generated some teaching materials (see the Ellis "Thorough School" stuff for 7 and 9 string banjo on the classic-banjo site).

So...the dart I would throw is still on a basic 5-string banjo. In 1916 it would have been most likely to have had gut strings and certainly a calf-skin head. The bridge would most likely have been two-footed (though three, four and five footed ones existed). There is another possibility: a Zither-Banjo. These were very popular in the UK in the period and many travelling virtuosos used them to play the popular music of the time. Go to http://www.zither-banjo.org and explore for more information. These were more expensive than a standard open-back banjo, so if your G-uncle was working class, he might not have been able to afford a ZB.

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

buccaneer - Posted - 11/10/2009:  13:20:52

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Thanks so much. I'm thinking that it would have had to be an inexpensive banjo; I believe the boy was a stable-worker before he went off to war. Ireland seems to have lots of gaps in documentation for all sorts of things; mind you, when you're working as hard as those folks did it can't be easy to sit down and write out stuff for posterity...you're too busy trying to keep body and soul together so that you can eventually have posterity running about the place.

Nine-string banjos? Did they sound like a harpsichord? And why did the 4-string only become popular after the war? The more questions poked at, the more questions you get, it seems.

Best,

Kyle

trapdoor2 - Posted - 11/10/2009:  13:57:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by buccaneer

Thanks so much. I'm thinking that it would have had to be an inexpensive banjo; I believe the boy was a stable-worker before he went off to war. Ireland seems to have lots of gaps in documentation for all sorts of things; mind you, when you're working as hard as those folks did it can't be easy to sit down and write out stuff for posterity...you're too busy trying to keep body and soul together so that you can eventually have posterity running about the place.

Nine-string banjos? Did they sound like a harpsichord? And why did the 4-string only become popular after the war? The more questions poked at, the more questions you get, it seems.

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Yes, this could go on forever! Historically, 4-string banjos appear to have been introduced in the 1890's (Farris' "banjolin") without much success. However, a sea-change in popular music was in the offing in the 'teens and a plectrum (flatpick) based style started to become increasingly popular. The short string on a 5-string banjo is simply in the way with this "strum" style of playing...so it was deleted (If you want more info, go talk to 'Beezaboy' about this, he is hard on the trail of the earliest tenor banjos).

So, the change in playing style was probably driven by "dance band" music which required more volume than a fingerpicked banjo could produce. The banjo changed to suit the style and the 4-string (w/steel strings) solved that problem...until PA systems became common (1930's).

There's a lot more to the history of the banjo...I'll let you explore the rest on your own!

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

whyteman - Posted - 11/10/2009:  15:33:20

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Can't be sure about the banjo, but I 'll guess it was a four string plectrum.

If he was RC, was he referred to as "Liam" for short?

While not a Trad. song, your story sounds chillingly like Eric Bogle's haunting ballad "Willie McBride" a.k.a. "Green Fields of France" made very popular in the 1970s by Liam Clancy. Your uncle would appreciate that song.

Don.

Haul off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve.

buccaneer - Posted - 11/10/2009:  16:47:26

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If he was RC, was he referred to as "Liam" for short?

While not a Trad. song, your story sounds chillingly like Eric Bogle's haunting ballad "Willie McBride" a.k.a. "Green Fields of France" made very popular in the 1970s by Liam Clancy. Your uncle would appreciate that song.

Don.

Haul off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve.
[/quote]

Hi Don,

You'd be surprised at how popular the name 'William' was in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th Century (*I* was); and interestingly, most diminutives are "Willy" over 'Liam'; I imagine because 'Liam' is more, shall we say, rural sounding than "Willy", and in the class-conscious days of Victoria and her kid Edward and then George... well... As for the similarity to the Green Fields of France, sadly, 19-year old casualties in the north of France (Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish or German) were very common indeed. I know the song very well, and the similarity amazes me too. Casualty numbers at the Somme were hideously large. Willy Finlay (my g' Uncle) was a pretty typical soldier of the time, and shared the fate of all too many of his generation. Fantastic song, though. Wow, that was mostly off topic, eh?

Kyle

Julian44_4 - Posted - 11/11/2009:  03:59:26

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Welcome to the new resource site for the Irish banjo!

Here you'll find everything you ever wanted to know about the banjo in Irish (and other European) traditional music, artist portraits, discography, a presentation of the different banjo types, how to play, maintain and buy a banjo, links, a message board etc. etc. etc.

Most think of the Irish tuned tenor banjo played the way Barney McKenna of Dubliners fame plays it when they talk about Irish banjo. That style is the main focus of this site, but I also want to show that there are other banjo styles (and banjo types) apropriate for Celtic music, and also the opposite: the low ("Irish") tuned tenor banjo can be used very effectively in many other music styles as well.

Since classic Irish tenor banjo technique and playing style is virtually identical to Irish octave mandola, and very similar to how they play the mandolin, the mandola, the Irish cittern and the Irish bouzouki, most of the content here is useful for these instruments too, and at least one part os the site (the accompaniment section) is also very relevant for the guitar and virtually all other stringed instruments.

My name is Frank Nordberg and I'm a guitarist/banjoist/multiinstrumentalist from Northern Norway. I know it's kind kind of strange for a Norwegian to build a site like this, but somebody have to do it, and nobody else would. ;-)

Hope you enjoy my humble site!

http://www.irish-banjo.com/index.html


David

diarmaid - Posted - 11/11/2009:  15:49:12

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Kyle the windsor banjos were probably the most brand popular played in britain and ireland (1916 was before the partition of ireland as im sure youre well aware). its hard to say with any certainty, what type (5 string/zither/tenor/plectrum) of banjo he played, my guess would be a british 5 string open back or zither banjo, though thats completely guesswork as the tenors hadnt become really popular in the states until probably the 1920's....because of their affordable price and wide availability...a windsor banjo is the most likely brand, though theres a range of other possibilities many of them are on this website http://www.whitetreeaz.com/vintage/brit1.htm

i think all the available war records have been made available for free online very recently here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

as far as the type of music, possibly irish and/or scottish folk music, possibly classical, or minstrel style music, depending more than anything on what he/his family listened to and liked.


by the way, if you look around with alternative spellings for Finlay, ie Finley O'Finley etc im sure you'll uncover a/many coats of arms, though some of the websites like house of names etc are not always accurate (they are in fact are very dubious in some cases).

Paul Roberts - Posted - 11/13/2009:  10:14:08

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buccaneer wrote, "The last letter that went out to poor Willy mentions his banjo waiting for him to play when he gets home. Of course, he never did make it home, he's still buried in France."

... first time I've ever cried, reading a post ...

Paul

http://www.banjocrazy.com/ Gold Tone Banjos - Lowest Prices

http://www.youtube.com/user/strumstering Paul's YouTube Channel

buccaneer - Posted - 11/15/2009:  20:07:48

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Yikes.

Spent the weekend pouring through banjo materials and walking through music shops. Goodness Gracious (to use an auntism) there is a great huge ugly amount of banjo-lit out there for bluegrass and Celtic (hard C, not soft, people-soft 'c' is a sports team), but not a lot of even 1920s material outside the web. Not too many banjos in my area (Minnesota) for sale, and even fewer (read, none) in the used shops. But that's okay, it can wait, and there's e-bay as well, for risk. Thanks so much for the Zither and Windsor recommendations; it's given me a fair bit to think about. The other thing is instruction in banjo; so far I've seen bluegrass, clawhammer and so on, so now I only have to figure out what to start learning on so that I can play something William would've recognised. I have to say though, it's been fun so far, and I can see the lad smiling at me across the years.

Kyle