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Mirek Patek - Posted - 11/06/2009: 00:43:10
Reading the topic http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/161717 about plain scan of tab from published book (which I fully agree is NOT ACCEPTABLE) raised the following question:
What is the minimal amount of modification of the tab made by someone else to be considered acceptable from the copyright point of view? (That means the tab is no longer copyrighted by the original creator.)
a) Crazy example of "putting the capo" to the tab to make it in A instead of in G - of course this is not enough.
b) Reworking the tab for different tuning (e.g. from gDGBD to gDGCD) - is the difference in one string enough, or it has to be more, e.g. from gDGBD to aDF#AD ?
c) My actual case - reworking the tab for different tuning of different banjo: from gDGBD to DGdg (another examples of tunings conversion are at my automated signature below). Am I still clearly breaking the copyright of someone else by doing so?
I am NOT raising this topic to get an excuse from asking for kind permission and giving proper credit to original creator of the tab, I just want to know if this is "just" ethical issue or still definitely also the copyright issue.
Thank you for your opinions.
Mirek
_________________________________________________________________
Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string):
Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo
Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo
http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatek
Handout for workshops at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944
Edited by - jazzylynne on 11/06/2009 09:46:16
banjotom2 - Posted - 11/06/2009: 04:32:05
Modification of ANY sort to a copyrighted song or tune would not excuse an individual from copyright infringement.
By the way, that's a very nice rendition of "Blackberry Blossom" in your YouTube video!
Very unusual technique....fingerstyle on an open-back, 4-string banjo...and it also sounds old-time-ish...clawhammer-y.
Excellent.
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http://www.banjotom2.com
"I don't put on...I put out!" Uncle Dave Macon
"Doc, I come from Alabamy with this 'danged thing' on my knee!", Gary Larson
"Them what picks together...sticks together!" (Original, BanjoTom2)
Edited by - banjotom2 on 11/06/2009 05:32:30
Mirek Patek - Posted - 11/06/2009: 05:49:42
quote:
Originally posted by banjotom2
Modification of ANY sort to a copyrighted song or tune would not excuse an individual from copyright infringement.
Well - and what about the modification of (copyrighted) arrangement of public domain song/tune? Mirek P.S. Thanks for your nice comment on my technique, Tom. _________________________________________________________________ Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string): Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatekHandout for workshops at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944
banjotom2 - Posted - 11/06/2009: 06:50:19
"Public Domain" means its not copyright protected.
You can do what you like with it, without fear of offending or breaking the law.
"The Marine's Hymn", is a melody and song written about American Marines (Military personnel) and is a 'public domain' tune/song.
I looked that up on Wikipedia.com recently when working on an arrangement of that tune.
Therefore, the U.S. military, or the Marines specifically, wouldn't have grounds to give you trouble.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.banjotom2.com
"I don't put on...I put out!" Uncle Dave Macon
"Doc, I come from Alabamy with this 'danged thing' on my knee!", Gary Larson
"Them what picks together...sticks together!" (Original, BanjoTom2)
banjotom2 - Posted - 11/06/2009: 06:55:43
"Blackberry Blossom" is a traditional type tune and is probably not copyright protected...
However, if a professional player/teacher/educator such as Janet Davis, who regulary publishes (legally) her arrangements of copyrighted and non-copyrighted material were to publish a specific arrangement of a 'public domain' tune or song...I would think her arrangement would be copyright protected.
I'm not a lawyer, however...so it is just a guess on my part.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.banjotom2.com
"I don't put on...I put out!" Uncle Dave Macon
"Doc, I come from Alabamy with this 'danged thing' on my knee!", Gary Larson
"Them what picks together...sticks together!" (Original, BanjoTom2)
jbaker7 - Posted - 11/06/2009: 07:49:42
Hi Mirek,
I see that you are talking about my post a few days ago.
"Hi Dutchman,
I know you mean well but your latest addition to the tab archives does exactly what is forbidden to do with regards to scanning any books for tabs such as you have with "Foggy Mt. Top". You will succeed in getting Eric's site into trouble with scanning published banjo books...Not a good practice...You even quote the exact page number... Jack Baker NYC"
I was only addressing the blatant scanning from a tab book and posting it here. I've seen your tabs and they are certainly your original arrangements and very nice ones at that. You have nothing to worry about.
I don't think Publishers would go after like you or people that put certain songs into Tabledit. But I do think they will not tolerate "direct stealing and scanning" from their books...
According to the Copyright Lawyers (private use attorneys) I teach, Copyright and Public Domain rules/laws have changed over the last few years and they really do not exist anymore and the rules are unclear at this point in time. They are much more concerned with the misuse of "Youtube videos" at this point.
Be well my friend and keep up your unique style of banjo playing...Jack Baker NYC
Jack R. Baker
http://www.frettedinstrumentsnyc.com
Edited by - jbaker7 on 11/06/2009 08:01:06
Mirek Patek - Posted - 11/06/2009: 08:18:09
quote:
Originally posted by jbaker7
I've seen your tabs and they are certainly your original tunes and very nice ones at that. You have nothing to worry about.
Jack, thank you for your answer. But please consider this scenario: I would take some 5-string banjo tab in TablEdit format and pass it through the AUTOMATED TablEdit conversion to my tuning (it is very easy in two steps - by changing the instrument tuning from gDGbd to gDGdg and then by changing the number of strings from 5 to 4 - try it on some of your tabs). Then I have some rough tab where all the notes from B string are shifted to G string - this is the issue I have to correct manually (and musically - to keep the important melody notes, but to change the drone or chord notes to d or g strings), but in case of down the neck Scruggsy tab the result is playable. [The Keithy melodic tabs are different story - during this automated conversion they change to single string - I do not know how to prevent it.] So, now when I openly disclosed that sometimes my part of manual/musical finetuning of the tab could be very limited and the TablEdit itself does big automated part of the job, what is your opinion? Thanks Mirek _________________________________________________________________ Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string): Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatekHandout for workshops at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/06/2009: 10:34:04
There is no definite answer. That's why the cases go to court and people ask about prior knowledge.
If you are taking someone else's work and modifying it and presenting it as your own without giving the original author credit, you are wrong. Legally, ethically and morally.
The legal issue is trying to prove it.
Counterexample. I have basic simple beginner forward roll tab of Bile Dem Cabbage Down posted on the web. Any bluegrass teacher asked to come up with a tab for that would probably write exactly what I wrote. That's legal. If they copied it off my page and printed it out and handed it to a student and said they wrote it, that's illegal (even though both pieces of paper contain the same exact writing).
That's why they want to know about prior exposure and state of mind and need to call in experts on musical styles for a lawsuit.
And the more technical a piece is (such as tablature), the harder it is to prove.
Every textbook has the same facts so the only difference is presentation.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
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