lbuhler - Posted - 11/05/2009:  07:39:20

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So I am a beginner claw hammer player. I can't seem to get enough volume out of my down stroke on a single string.
I was reading a book by Grandpa Jones - he said to use a finger pick - along your finger nail -
Does anyone have any advice in this area. I seem to get good volume on the bottom string, but the other 3 I can't seem to make them as crisp or as loud.
Ed

PF. - Posted - 11/05/2009:  07:52:33

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Getting a good strong stroke usually comes in time but a pick is one solution. I use them at jams with a lot of people.

R Buck - Posted - 11/05/2009:  08:04:48

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There are folks who need to use a pick over the fingernail. Especially if you have soft nails or chew them. Some of us have been at it so long we also use part of our finger so our cuticles look worn.

RobBob
Music; the best way to count time. It is a journey not a destination.
www.blueridgerounders.com

itockman - Posted - 11/05/2009:  08:51:10

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I had the same problem when I was starting out. I think it is more a matter of time and practice than anything else. It takes a little while to get to where you can strike the inner strings with both accuracy and force. I spent a lot of time worrying about my nails when I was beginning. This concern has evaporated as I have become more comfortable with frailing, and, as R Buck says, you tend to get calluses on your finger that can be hard as nail. As for picks, there have been (Kyle Creed) and are (Rick McCracken) some great players who have used them and gotten wonderful results.

Best,
Israel

-Israel

darryl k. - Posted - 11/05/2009:  08:59:30

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Check out the BHO page for jbalch . He shows how to make downpicking picks out of ping pong balls. These work really well, and have a nice natural sound, and are somewhat flexible....similiar to a fingernail. I used them quite a bit, but don't CH much any more or would get them back out.
darryl



The road less travelled....5 strings, a stick, a hoop, and a piece of hyde.

J.D. Miner Trio www.jdminer.com

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 11/05/2009:  09:09:01

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I took bluegrass classes and got used to finger picks before taking a few clawhammer classes so I've always used a clawhammer pick. So far I've been the only one in my classes who uses a clawhammer pick. My favorite by far is the perfect touch pic, here's a short review/comparison to the freedom pick I used for awhile;

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=150009

I occasionally practice without a pick to branch out a bit but could never get the same distinct sound or accuracy I get with a pick. Those perfect touch pics are light and comfortable and I usually forget that I'm wearing one.

John Piper

lbuhler - Posted - 11/05/2009:  10:35:03

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Thank you all! I will keep practicing -
Also, I know this is a loaded question - but here in Kentucky most of the guys call it Frailing - not clawhammer - what is the difference?

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/05/2009:  10:42:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by lbuhlerI know this is a loaded question - but here in Kentucky most of the guys call it Frailing - not clawhammer - what is the difference?

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Not much. the right hand stroke does the same sorts of stuff.

I have it sort of in my mind that frailing uses more brushes and chords whereas clawhammer sounds more notey, fewer brushes and a lot of Index-Thumb strokes on just the 1st and 5th strings. But it's more of an ear/style thing. I tend to do lots of brushes when I sing or back folks up and then lots of single string work with the 5th string going as much as possible when I play a break. Of course, doing rhythm/lead stuff in a song is a bluegrass/jazz approach and not an old-time approach so I don't really know what the heck I'm doing (which puts it in sync with the rest of my life).

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Chris Dean - Posted - 11/05/2009:  10:50:50

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I would work on what part of your arm is starting your stroke. Try starting from your shoulder and then focusing all of your energy from shoulders to your fingers tips, much like when conducting, or playing the piano.

~Chris

Christopher W. Dean

lbuhler - Posted - 11/05/2009:  11:33:30

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Chris,
That is interesting advice. Nobody has ever described it to me like that before.
I am really needing to practice - but practicing the wrong thing - well, I think that doesn't help. Maybe I really need to watch / ask some questions before I just start creating some bad habit. Most of the guys I watch tend to play a little stiff like (I don't know exactly how to explain it). I need to observe a little differently next time I see someone playing.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/05/2009:  13:17:24

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This is a matter of "Follow Through" - just like tennis, golf, batting and calling the girl the next day.

When you play that bottom string (called the Top string in fretted instruments because the pitch is higher) you always follow through. But when you play the 3 inner strings you are unconsciously worried about hitting the next string and pull your stroke. Effectively you finger bounces off the string you hit and might even re-strike it. YOu lose volume.

To correct this - practice slowly and carefully, pushing your frailing finger "through" the string you want to play until it comes to rest against the next string. Make sure your angle of attack allows a clear crisp sound with every stroke.

I usually suggest you brace your thumb against the 5th string when you practice this stroke. You just want to think about one thing at a time and right now that is getting a solid crisp clear clean clang out of the string you want to sound. Don't fret, don't play a melody, just work the frail finger across those inner strings. Once you feel you have dit down, try doing it without hitting the next string, but still doing your follow through. It might seem like you are going backwards at first but it works.

My book "Rocket Science Banjo" is full of information like this and it is free. See the website below and download your free copy.



http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

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Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 11/05/2009 13:23:33

bublnsqueak - Posted - 11/05/2009:  14:11:33

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I am at the same point as Ibuhler. The 'top' string is loud and clear but I can't really distingiush the single lower notes from the strum.

My nail is good and strong.

I guess it is most probably my technique. If I concentrate on striking the string and soften the strum the sound improves (still not good though). However, I am using a very cheap banjo without a tone ring. I wondered if the middle/lower notes are more distinct on a better quality banjo?

Thanks in advance
Paul

deuceswilde - Posted - 11/05/2009:  14:27:46

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Come on folks, they are not "picks," they are thimbles.


On the other end, what kind of banjo and setup? Sometimes attempting to get a "old time" sound will work against volume.

-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

Chris Dean - Posted - 11/05/2009:  14:50:07

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lbuhler,


Sorry, i didn't get to explain things a little more, my next class was coming in when i was finishing my last response.

Practicing the correct thing is definitely key. It is something many call woodshedding. Analyze what you are needing to work on and break it down the the smallest factor. After that, gradually put it "back together". Also, make sure you are practicing as "fast" as you need to, in order to play each part perfectly. Then, speed you tempo up.

As for the arm, mine always looks "strict", or almost locked into place. Also, it looks as if my stroke starts in my forearm and wrist. However, that is just where the arm action is released. Most of the muscles in my lower arm are pretty relaxed and my shoulder is initiating the stroke. This helps my arm "chops" when I am playing. Also, if you are too tense while playing it can lead to tendonitis, which is something you want to avoid.

As for the stroke, start small. Without your banjo hold your right arm as if the banjo was right in front of you. Then imagine that there are drop of water on your knuckles. Then try to just jolt you hand as if you wanted to flick the "water" off. When doing this make sure that your movement is started from the shoulder and that it follows through to the tip of your fingers....much like the way a bird initiates its wing during flight. After that apply the some motion but add the upward and downward motion in the stroke. As oldwoodchuckb mentioned, make sure you follow through. You want to push through the string, much like aiming past the finish line at the end of a run. If you don;t aim past, you'll slow down before you get to the end.

I like to throw analogies in when I teach. I hope this helps and that I didn't get way off base.







Paul,

As for the top string, versus other strings.

Try isolating the strings that you are giving you trouble. Start the "bum from the "bum dit-ty" on the strings that are giving you the most trouble. Spend some time on each string and practice very slowly. First pay attention to logistic and getting your fingers used to starting on different strings. Then, once you are comfortable being working on your stroke on those strings.

Listening and watching is also a valuable tool to help you get better at technique, tone, and phrasing. I could write allot on this. Simply, listen and watch as much as you can.

I hope this helps!

Sorry for the book. lol! :)

~Chris

Christopher W. Dean

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Edited by - Chris Dean on 11/05/2009 14:52:30

Paul Roberts - Posted - 11/05/2009:  14:54:53

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Yeah, a pick is just fine.

Paul

http://www.banjocrazy.com/ Gold Tone banjos - lowest price

http://www.youtube.com/user/strumstering my YouTube channel

lbuhler - Posted - 11/05/2009:  19:04:50

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Old Woodchuck,
Thank you so much for this information. And THANK YOU for the link! I really think this is going to help. I am trying to get east and listen to more old time banjo players. Most of the guys west of Lexington, Ky play scruggs style - go east and I find this claw hammer / frailing. I just love the sound of it so much.
Again, thank you so much.
Ed Buhler

lbuhler - Posted - 11/05/2009:  19:10:12

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Chris,
Again, thank you so very much! You guys have all been great. So, tonight - I took a plastic Earny Ball finger pick, turned it over, clipped it off with some fingernail clippers - IT WORKED! Much, much more volume. Of course my wife would argue "Why do you need more volume?". She just doesn't understand the love between a guy and his banjo.....
Ed Buhler

bublnsqueak - Posted - 11/05/2009:  23:06:39

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Thankyou All,

Lots of food for thought (and practice, spending etc) there.

Thanks Again
Paul

majikgator - Posted - 11/06/2009:  05:52:45

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at very firat i tried using ny index finger and i couldn't get any volume out of it, i switched to my middle finger the problen went away, i just cant down pick with my index finger, i can pick up with it all day and all night but not down, i'm sure i am unusual but that was my experience, i can sort of half way use my index now but would never try it in public and you do have to move right through the string not stop at it once you make contact, as if you are strumming that single string. i have always used Frailing and Clawhammer interchnageably, but i like the sound of the word frailing better and it was the first description i heard of this kind of playing, as i recall it was from a Ken Perlman book a long long time ago so i stay out of those discussions trying to distinguish clawhammer from frailing.

jk

farmer bob - Posted - 11/07/2009:  07:10:08

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Ed, I use a plastic Alaska pick on my middle finger... Bob.

whyteman - Posted - 11/07/2009:  07:19:24

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Ihbuhler,

You might find this a bit kinky, but a lot of us go to a nail salon and get an acrylic overlay on our frail(ing) finger nail. Not a fake glue on nail mind you, but the powdery permanent stuff that is, well, hard as nails.

I have a fairly "light touch" on the banjo, but with acrylic nail combined with my Reiter banjo(s) i get good volume. The fake nail takes about a half hour to "wear in", and then it sounds very natural.

The nail ladye charges me whopping $3.00 for one finger nail. Don't forget to tip her.

Don.

Haul off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve.

lbuhler - Posted - 11/07/2009:  08:23:25

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Don,
Nothing wrong with a grown man going to a nail salon in Eastern Ketucky, I am sure my friends won't find anything to make fun of me over that! I am already the butt of all the banjo and dulcimer jokes, not to mention I am short and fat. I don't see how a nail salon around all my beard wearing, burly music buddies would get on to me about. HA HA - I will try it. The pick that I am using this last two days is a plastic Earnie Ball that I cut the end off of and flipped over. It sounds okay, but keeps slipping down as I play. This sounds much more permanent. My nails are just, well, gone. I have beaten the end of it off and the cuticle is getting pretty damaged from the string. Sounds like you might be on to something here.

dbrooks - Posted - 11/07/2009:  08:39:27

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Ed, you've gotten good advice here. Better volume does come with practice and experience. Advice that I find helpful as reminders also.

As for clawhammer picks, I have tried the ping pong pick and the modified brass Acri pick that John Balch describes on his web site. I have settled on the Fred Kelly Freedom Pick for playing in the weekly contra dance band. It sounds like a strong fingernail to me, and I can get volume without feeling I have to drive the strings very hard. At home and in small jams, I just use my fingernail (middle finger) on my banjos (one with Nylgut strings one with steel strings).

David

bublnsqueak - Posted - 11/08/2009:  23:48:40

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I seem to have gotten past this problem.

The answer seems to have come in three parts:

Banjo setup - lots of head tightening

Volume - My expectations of volume were too high, playing softer means I am not trying to hit the notes too hard, which adds tension and destroys accuracy.

?action? - I am very new at this. Just learning Cripple Creek. As I pick up a little speed I find my hand is doing things that I have never practised. It does seem to be behaving in line with the advice above. But its doing it on its own.

So thank you from both me and my hand :-)
Paul

Matt Buckley - Posted - 11/09/2009:  04:37:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by majikgator

at very firat i tried using ny index finger and i couldn't get any volume out of it, i switched to my middle finger the problen went away ...

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My experience as well.

Experiment with which finger, index or middle, produces more strength. The difference in volume between my index and middle finger was astonishing. Also, although others here have focused on picks, perhaps rightly, my idea would be to focus more, and in great detail, in the mechanics of your stroke.

Cheers, Matt

vernob - Posted - 11/09/2009:  06:38:11

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I get more volume when I use my middle finger. That nail is harder. I mostly play with my index finger though. When I want more volume with that finger, I use a brass Acri pick that I modified per John Balch. I like the tone it produces as well as the volume. Check John's site for the instrux on that pick.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

Chammer - Posted - 11/09/2009:  07:08:02

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Try using your index finger, instead of the middle one.

Andy

whyteman - Posted - 11/10/2009:  15:25:52

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East Kentucky seems open to acrylic nails.

I went to the old time festival in Morehead (Rowan County is on the edge of the Cumberlands) and there were several macho mountain boys with acrylic nails and plenty of volume.

Don.

Haul off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve.

majikgator - Posted - 11/11/2009:  15:59:52

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i don't like picks and seem to get good volume without one, picks especially for clawhammer seem awkward to me and i can't get as wide a variety of sound with them either but at a class i took with Adam Hurt he showed everybody what i guess he considered a pick a little less obtrusive and i found i agree, it's the ernie ball picky pick and has a very narrow "pick" i've pretty much tried all of them too and even though it's pretty cheap i dislike it the least .

jk

stevebo - Posted - 11/11/2009:  19:30:49

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Ive been using a finger pick made out of a pingpong ball (there are lots of links to the site, just do a search for homemade finger picks) Ive found the sound to be louder and clearer than if i used my finger nail---------and its easier to play , I love it!

billyshake - Posted - 11/11/2009:  23:02:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by stevebo

Ive been using a finger pick made out of a pingpong ball (there are lots of links to the site, just do a search for homemade finger picks) Ive found the sound to be louder and clearer than if i used my finger nail---------and its easier to play , I love it!

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I am definitely going to give the ping pong pick a try -- I have the pattern printed out. Does the pick bend at the very tip really easy or break after a short while?

I've been using a "Frankenstein Frailing Pick" which I fashioned out of a ProPik F-Tone. It's been working really well for me. I've chosen not to grow the nail long because -- bear with me, here -- due to location, I have to eat with my right hand and it's gross to get food in there or to have grime lodged in the nail prior to eating (I haven't even SEEN a fork in over a year). I'm going to buy a couple real clawhammer pix the next time I'm in the States, but I'm quite happy with this for now.

It might look here like the nail would cause a clicking noise, but because the pick is turned to my right a little to land even on the strings, it covers the nail just enough that it's flush and makes a good tone. I can, though, turn the pick a bit to my left and then the nail sticks out just a little through the hole in the pick and makes kind of a pseudo-cluck noise that I actually enjoy. As I learn, I'm discovering what most of you already know: there are SO many great little noises that come out of clawhammer style. I love it.


____________________________
billyshake: The #1 Banjo Player on the Sub-Continent!
(of course, that's assuming I'm the ONLY banjo player on the sub-continent)

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Edited by - billyshake on 11/11/2009 23:05:16

deuceswilde - Posted - 11/12/2009:  05:03:17

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How about a mizrab?

-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

stevebo - Posted - 11/12/2009:  16:45:17

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The ping pong ball pick is really durable, and doesnt bend much at the tip, due to the curve of the ball----------ive been really impressed with it! (and you cant beat the price!) Also, you can trim the pick with a fingernail clippers, just like a fingernail. One thing I found is by turning the picktoward the bottom of the banjo, when it strikes the strings, the pick hits them at more of a right angle than if I was using my fingernail. I find that it makes clawhammer easier, and it sounds better! Good luck!