Phil - MO - Posted - 11/04/2009:  20:25:59

I attended my third official jam last (Tues.) night.  Starting to get a feel for chord changes and what chord to use in the songs they play.  Even took a lead a couple of times. Now if I could just get over stage fright and a feeling of goofing up.
4 players from Salem, MO showed up. (home town of the recent hall of fame Dillards I listened to at square dances when I was a teenager in the Dent county courthouse in the 50's).  You could tell these four had played together a long time yet were tolerant of somebody like me with limited experience and offered encouragement. Enjoyed being around them.
Anyway I noticed the banjo picker in the group only used his middle finger to pick but really sounded outstanding both in lead and backup and could play along with any song done whether he knew it or not and made it look so easy. I noticed that he had picks on all three fingers but curled the thumb and first finger in a circle and just used his middle finger and picked up and down playing all strings sounding like what I would call two finger style.  As we broke up for the evening I was talking to the mandolin player in the group and he said the banjo player had a corperal(sp) tunnel syndrome operation done on his right hand and had to play this way.  I don't know how he kept the pick on his middle finger when he picked up and then immediately down with the back side of the pick unless I was missing something.  He sure knew what he was doing and I would love to hear him when he could use all three fingers.  I just thought as I typed this, maybe he was holding the pick on his first finger with his thumb and using it on the down stroke.  Maybe he was playing two finger style but with the index on the down stroke and middle finger coming up.  I watched him for two hours and thought he was only using the middle finger. I wish I had asked him how he was playing but didn't get the chance.  I wish I was half as good.  Maybe he will show up again some time.  I still think he was only using his middle finger but he was playing all the strings and all over the neck and was one of the best sounding banjo players I ever saw.

Phil - MO

banjotom2 - Posted - 11/20/2009:  04:59:38

That's interesting.

I saw a fellow at a music store I used to work at going at it high speed in what sounded like clawhammer...I heard him before I saw him...when my eyes finally caught a glimpse of what he was doing, he only used his thumb and one of his fingers..dion't recall which one...he wasn't wearing picks...but he could pick with blinding speed and it wasn't strumming. He was playing distinct melodies.

I did ask him what he was doing, and he said it was 2-finger style clawhammer.

At that moment, I remembered reading in the Black Earl Scruggs book, that Earl himself played a 2-finger style before figuring out how to use the third finger....

So, I assume it's a valid style somewhere...and still practiced by those who know of it.

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/20/2009:  05:40:46

You can actually strum up and down and get melodies on the inside strings.
Takes exactly the same kind of accuracy as frailing.

I find I can frail faster and for longer than I can fingerpick. I suspect exercise has something to do with it, but playing for square dances will inspire pickers to come up with easy stuff you can do fast for long periods of time. What's funny is that when you hear it, it sounds complicated but the inspiration for it was to find the simplest way to play the melody. Because it's so fast, you can't see what's going on and the player often isn't even aware of that all he's doing. (You don't have time to focus on the particulars).

majikgator - Posted - 11/20/2009:  06:06:50

Doc Watson only uses two finger for all his banjo playing styles as well as his guitar fingerpicking, well and i guess two to hold the flatpick when he does that as well, he demonstartes his banjo playing techniques in one of MIke Seegers banjo DVDs, i don't remember whcih right now.

chip arnold - Posted - 11/20/2009:  06:53:04

Phil-MO, I don't know where your post has been to not get a response until today. Anyway, I'd love to have watched this guy play. There are a lot of old time finger picking styles. 2-finger style is played with one finger and the thumb. It and old time 3-finger (pre Scruggs) styles are still pretty common and seem to be gaining in popularity. I play 2-finger style and you can hear some of it on my homepage.

tomberghan - Posted - 11/20/2009:  08:27:31

Hi Phil,
That sounds like a great technique . . . to down-pick one moment and up-pick the next wearing picks. Now combining up-picking and down-picking is nothing new. Lots of players have been doing that without picks (like the famous Mike Seeger) but the weird part of your description is the finger picks!

It is easy enough with bare fingers if the finger nail is short enough. If the nail is too long, then the nail tends to catch on the string when up-picking (why finger picks curve in the opposite direction from that of the finger nail)

The problem "most" people would have wearing a pick is that the pick would catch and get stuck . . . the string winding up in-between the finger and the pick . . . no matter which direction the pick is worn. But somehow he made it work.

Some Possibilities:
1. He would angle his hand, hitting the string(s) from something like a 40 degree angle versus a 90 degree angle (somebody call a Geometrist please) – that way the pick slides off the string rather than “plucking” the string. (Or, “glances" off of the string if you prefer) Then, he could move in either direction. To facilitate this technique the pick would probably have to be worn close to the tip of the finger.
2. The pick was formed around the tip of his finger (bent around the end of his finger), and, he had accuracy such that he could go either direction with his finger and not getting the pick caught.
3. He was using some special pick - like a sewing thimble that could go in either direction.
4. He didn't wear a pick on that finger. (But say you clearly saw that he did)

I think it must be number 1 or a combination of 1 & 2.

You have to go find this guy or get his number and call him. Ask him what the trick is. We'd all like to know!

Edited by - tomberghan on 11/20/2009 08:43:14

tubaphonethumper - Posted - 11/20/2009:  10:10:20

Hi banjo gang,
I use2 fingers. My thumb grabs the melody (bum part) and whatever finger is handy does the ditty- part usually. I wear picks. Thank goodness for Fred Kelly. I use a slick pick on my thumb, and 2 freedom picks--one on my index and one on my ring. I don't use my middle finger at all because I have no control over it. Sometimes I use my pinky to brush with. I don't think of which finger I am using. I just think of what sound I want to achieve and let my fingers do their own business. I could never consciously teach someone how to play the way I do the way I do. My wrist is damaged. The tendons and muscles don't move my fingers the way they used to. I don't let that bother me. I just frail/pick how I can. The reason I use picks is because if I didn't, my banjo playing would cause my frailing wrist to hurt so bad that I couldn't play at all.
I need to play to keep my sanity.
So that is how I do it.
Happy plunking to you all.
Edna Mae

majikgator - Posted - 11/22/2009:  11:36:48

Tomberghan - Mike Seeger also does up and down strokes WITH a finger pick on guitar and very well on his Carter Family guiar DVD, i need one of those picks(and obvioulsly talent) , it's not a Fred (too thick for me) Kelly but some sort of pick, my guess is he just shaped a fairly normal pick perfectly for him, the man was genius. If anybody has this video and a lot better eyes than me maybe they could shed some light on this as he gets tremedously good volune and clarity on the guitar there and i am sure it could be applied to banjo, may even make me try a pick again.

Edited by - majikgator on 11/22/2009 11:42:35

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 11/22/2009:  17:18:01

Phil-Mo, your homework assignment is to return to that jam and talk to him and get more details.Enquiring minds want to know. And no cracks about the dog ate your homework! As his surgery heals, will he return to 3 fingers again? I had carpal tunnel surgery on my left hand about 15 years ago, and in a matter of weeks was back to normal functions. But that was the left hand, not the right.
Paul

Phil - MO - Posted - 11/25/2009:  09:34:52

I've been to two jams since and they haven't shown up. I'll ask around to see if I can get any info from the other players. I'm usually the only banjo player there, but evidently these four friends play as a regular group and I might find some other jam they attend. Wish I hadn't been so intimidated and asked him while he was there.

blindjesse - Posted - 12/01/2009:  23:01:30

Here's Fred Coon playing (mostly) with one finger - it's obvious where he's using his thumb; for the rest, it's just middle finger up and down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcdqZzh_524

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 12/01/2009:  23:59:34

If yu don't know about Roscoe Holcomb - get to know his sound immediately.

Also when it comes to up picking do your best to catch every post by Chip Arnold - and perhaps even go to his camp at the Campbell school this upcoming spring

tron.miller - Posted - 12/02/2009:  06:17:31

Does anyone know more about Fred Coon's technique? Has anyone seen him play in person?

thanks,
Phil

chip arnold - Posted - 12/02/2009:  06:41:18

Phil, Here's a link to Mr Coon's Youtube page: http://www.youtube.com/user/fredcoonbanjo

He explains that he plays mostly a "one finger style" but it's what others would call 2-finger in that the thumb is involved too. He also says (as you can see in his videos) that he mixes down strokes with up strokes. I notice that sometimes he has his hand in the air and sometimes his trailing fingers are resting on the head. He uses no drop thumb but gets a lot of notes with left hand devices. His playing is really nice.

tron.miller - Posted - 12/02/2009:  14:58:32

Chip,

thanks...I've had an interest for a couple of years in finding a "no-thumb" technique and this is as close as I've seen. My own attempts have been uninspiring (though it could be that I just haven't devoted enough time to developing something myself).

Unfortunately my computer is so old the frame rate is jerky and I cannot easily discern specifically what Mr. Coon is doing with his right hand (so I can copy it!). I'm wondering if there is a basic module in there (like bumditty) that I can grab, learn and then add on to.

thanks again!

chip arnold - Posted - 12/02/2009:  15:26:46

Well his playing does use the thumb on the 5th string on the "ty" of bum-ditty and it sounds like he might sometimes double thumb too (bum-pa-dit-ty) so that his thumb plays the 5th on pa and ty. So the only real difference between his playing and some other 2-finger or clawhammer (a 2-finger style) players is that he just doesn't use any drop thumb. Marvin Gaster is another 2-finger player who uses no drop thumb. I don't know why you'd want to play without using your thumb but you can do a lot with the one finger whether down or up-picking if you fill the holes with left hand work. Seems sorta' counter productive though unless you have a physical thing that makes your thumb unusable.

janolov - Posted - 12/02/2009:  23:10:57

Isn't his playing a little like using the finger as flat pick? Up-down-up-down (or is it down-up-down-up?) in the "bum-pa-dit-ty"?

clawforlife - Posted - 12/03/2009:  06:47:22

when i first started playing i didnt have internet or books i tried to figure out the clawhammer sound as best i counld and ended up with an up-pick on the Bum. which ive been told is seeger style, but i pick with me middle finger and strum with my index or both and drop thumb, is this seeger style or something else? as i notice seeger strums with his middle and picks with his index

chip arnold - Posted - 12/03/2009:  07:05:35

I'd call it Seeger style but the style goes back way before Pete put it in his book. The drop thumb part is more unusual and I don't remember if Seeger dropped his thumb in that style.