banjer5 - Posted - 11/01/2009:  06:49:45

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I see comments about slow jams regularly and wonder if they are the real answer for banjo players. I think that they may be ok for a short while but may turn into a crutch if stayed with too long. Any thoughts?

Fast Freddy the engineer says: Throttle in RUN 8 and highball, then don't look back, something might be gainin' on ya. 73,s de K5BGZ

Chris Cooper - Posted - 11/01/2009:  07:13:11

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In my opinion there is no substitute in solo prctice time for a good old metronome, use it often and pay close attention to what it's telling you. Vary the speed often playing slowly, play quickly, play hellishly fast, play silly slow. Metronome practice is never wasted practice.

Happy Pickin'

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/01/2009:  07:32:12

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Slow jams definitely have a place, as a confidence builder, or (even for more advanced students) an opportunity to try new licks and techniques. I think that Pete Wernick' approach--getting players to become self-sufficient jammers--offers more benefits in the long run, though.

As a staff musician at Augusta's Bluegrass Week next summer, I think I'll be responsible for anchoring the daily slow jams. I'd like to see what I can do to get more of the slow jammers taking a more active role in the proceedings.

tombriarhopper - Posted - 11/01/2009:  07:54:58

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I used a slow jam (i.e., "Band in a Box" cassette tape on the slow side) to learn. Then I got the nerve to join in a jam...I wished that jam was a slow one, but it wasn't!

Tom Briarhopper
http://www.wbtbriarhoppers.blogspot.com
http://www.myspace.com/tomwarlick

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/01/2009:  08:11:53

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I think they are a waste of time. If you want to play with people, play with them. That's like saying we're going to play a game of 'slow tag.' You play tag at the level of the other players and if there are a bunch of pre-schoolers and you're the adult, you run slow and hide in easy to find places.

Most of the people at the jams want other people there which means they are friendly and helpful to newbies. Songs go at a lot of different speeds and frankly, you ought to be picking at speed within a month of starting banjo. If you aren't, I'll bet none of your songs sound like songs yet.

I think slow jams are more of a comfort factor and if they make you comfortable enough to show up and play with strangers, then they will help you musically.

However, I discourage people from organizing slow jams. Just organize jams. A slow jam that works well will eventually modify itself into a real jam OR it will hold back the participants from playing faster and learning how to learn more complex tunes.

In fact, I think the biggest impediment is the one most view as a plus: many slow jams will give you a list of allowed songs. That turns the jams into an open mike essentially. Everyone gets their break, but no one is learning how to learn new songs on the fly nor are they learning how to teach new songs on the fly. That means you still have a lot of skills unlearned that will only be learned at real jams.

Just go jam and if it doesn't work well, go again the next week. Jams run according to the people who show up, not according to the rules posted on web sites or according to the rules of the folks who showed up last week but aren't here this week.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/01/2009:  08:16:00

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I used to host a slow jam for upcoming pickers in my area and they all thought it was great. I would chose 5 or 6 songs that I thought beginners could do and would write down the chord sequence in both letters and Roman Numerals so they would get used to the Nashville Numbering System. I'd send the songs/chords home with them and ask them to try to pick out a simple break or find a tab that they could play for the next session.

We'd take a song and I'd play through it and sing it and then we'd get the beginners to play rhythm along with whoever was taking a break. We never pushed anyone to take a break but if they wanted to try, that was wonderful. Most of the people in the slow jams would stay there about 6 months and then they were ready to go to a "faster" jam. Many would also come back to the slow jam and help those who needed help. Worked out great and we got quite a few new jammers that way.

It was a very enjoyable couple of years. We eventually ran out of enough beginners for a slow jam and it came to a halt.

Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

Banjo Island - Posted - 11/01/2009:  09:01:44

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If slow jams are the answer, then what's the question?

It's horses for courses. Some people are quite happy to play along in these for ever, not be put on the spot, take a lead, go beyond their comfort zone, etc. And if that's what they aspire to, then that's absolutely no problem.

As a first taster for playing in public then sure, go for it, but to step up to the next level (whatever that may be) you always need to be pushing yourself and playing with the best you can find. You'll learn the skills that those people are employing, and that's not just the speed factor.

To be brutally honest, a lot of people at advertised slow jams won't be listening, watching, or playing a solid beat, etc etc. - all musical skills you won't learn by playing along with yourself or in a noisy free-for-all.

Some think that's snobbish, but it's not - it's just the reality of different environments.

Jer

gdoc - Posted - 11/01/2009:  09:13:58

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I got a chance to go to a festival this last year, first one in over 15 years. First time I saw a slow jam.

My first reacton was, "hey, this is great!". I didn't have a banjo with me, and I am beyond slow jamming anwyay, but I was impressed with how they ran the jam. No pressure, or very little anyway. LOTS of encourgment!

The people attending were having the time of their life, and isn't that what it's all about anyway? Much better to have a jam you can get your feet wet in, and get over the fear of playing with others than just standing around because "everyone else is too good and too fast".

Anything that helps is good. If they are having fun, what more can you want?

gdoc

The KIDD - Posted - 11/01/2009:  09:27:39

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Depends specifically on WHO's runnin the jam and its main goal and purpose. Some are no more than a social outlet for people who really dont wanna progress musically and will usually play the same 15 tunes the same way for 3 hrs every week. Some , including the one I put one every fall and winter, are designed to help those who wanna progress reach goals by breaking down parts of an arrangement, discussing theory, different modes of backup, and some basic 1-3-5 triad vocal harmony interaction. Can be apples and oranges. Choose wisely.
John

http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass

Eastbaygeorge - Posted - 11/01/2009:  10:11:45

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To minstrel mike: dunno who you are hanging out with, but people picking at speed after a month of playing is pretty rare in my world.

I run slow jams (and regular jams that end up slow) at the CBA music camp each summer. I think they are great for new pickers, and everyone seems to have a great time. Sometimes we'll even slow down the already slow tune so someone can play their first break ever in public. I've had people come up to me after the jam and describe it as a life-changing experience, after playing alone in a bedroom for months, to play with others and take a break.

Things like that make me return as a volunteer each summer.

Oh, and winter: CBA is having an indoor winter camp in February in Sonoma County, north of San Francisco. See CBAontheweb.org.

Eastbay George

BC Bill - Posted - 11/01/2009:  10:44:59

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Speed is as much a place to hide as anything else. Try playing that 'up the neck' break to 'Foggy Mtn. Breakdown' at 60 BPM, or slower, if you can't play it with ease and accuracy, and perfect timing, at that speed, you ain't ready to try and burn it up.

Bill

email me at lakesidestudio@shaw.ca

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Edited by - BC Bill on 11/01/2009 10:45:36

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/01/2009:  12:33:02

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This discussion relates directly to how people learn to play the banjo. If you've learned to play each song by working slowly through a fully-adorned banjo arrangement, it will take you much longer to play that song fast enough to join in when it's played at an average regular jam. So a slow jam may be your only alternative.

If, on the other hand, you learned to build each song one layer at a time -- the chords, rolls over chords, rolls over the chords with some melody notes added, etc. etc. -- there's probably an earlier, simpler version you can play up to speed (even if it's just vamping or rolling the chords). You can use that version at a regular jam a lot more quickly than you will ever play the full arrangement at the same speed. You will also have a better sense of the song's structure, and have an easier time adapting to the key the other regular jammers may want to play it in.

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Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/01/2009 12:35:38

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/01/2009:  14:15:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by gdoc
The people attending were having the time of their life, and isn't that what it's all about anyway?

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That's what 'jam' means to me.

Ironic aspect of reality is that it seems as if the jams that are full of people worried about playing the music correctly end up with worse music than those who are are worried about playing with those who show up, and that difference has nothing to do with the slowness or professionalness of the jam; instead it has everything to do with who shows up, especially those who decide to take charge.
=====================
As far as personal speed, if you can vamp 4/4 chords in time to regular singing songs, you can also roll in time to them and as Rich pointed out, you start by having the speed and the rhythm and then add complexity. Try it with no licks, just chords strummed and chords picked. You ought to be able to strum chords in time within half an hour and basic picking at reasonable speed will happen in less than a month.

The hotshot fancy Scruggs' licks will take longer to get up to speed. There is no reason to start with them. Earl didn't.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 11/01/2009 14:18:10

Glenn Tate - Posted - 11/01/2009:  15:00:00

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Sometimes slow jams have their place. If I want to see someone I haven't seen in a while, or I want to help people who are learning, I will go to a slow jam as a helper, and I can be satisfied with that, if that was my purpose. I did that a few weeks ago.

However, for my own personal satisfaction and enjoyment, I prefer to pick with people who are up to speed pickers. I prefer to pick with people who know how to tune their instrument, and know when it is out of tune. I also I prefer a small jam group with a limited number of duplicate instruments. I like an informal format, with visiting and every now and then, someone saying, "Hey, let's do ??????.” I don't like the "It's your turn, what are you going to do?"

So, I like both types, depending on why I am going. I love helping, but sometimes I like playing faster, trickier numbers that won’t be done in the slow jam atmosphere.

I think it would be best for beginners who want to eventually become accomplished musicians, to strive to get out of the "slow jam forever" mentality as soon as possible. It is hard to really progress as a musician if all you do is play slow, easy tunes. However, if all you want to do is visit and socialize, then slow jams are for you.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

Glenn

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Edited by - Glenn Tate on 11/01/2009 15:11:50

Pete Wernick - Posted - 11/01/2009:  16:02:23

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Since the questions are:
<<wonder
1. if they are the real answer for banjo players. I think that they may be ok for a short while but
2. may turn into a crutch if stayed with too long. Any thoughts?>>

I'd say,

1. "the real answer"? Depends on the goal of the player. For most players, I'd reckon the biggest goal is to be able to participate in jamming. Right along with that goes "contribute to jamming, and do well when featured". There are other goals that players have but that covers a lot of what motivates players.

In which case, a slow jam is a great thing at a certain point of the journey. First to find a way to participate (being able to chord smoothly and play simple rhythm doesn't take too long to learn). When ready to take leads, take leads at gentle speeds. When it's starting to get "too easy" or maybe the jam is overpopulated, it's cool to move on. But slow jams can be a great experience and a platform to grow, as Ira mentioned.

2. Some folks never try to get beyond slow jamming. You can call it a crutch, but it's OK with me as long as they're having fun. To each his/her own.


Pete Wernick

DrBanjo.com

banjoak - Posted - 11/02/2009:  01:08:58

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There is definitely downsides to slow jams. One is that often it is hard to practice your rhythmic cohesion when too many others are off. If you can play with a solid group it makes it easier. The slower tempo can change the context of the tune/song. I often also see folks get lulled into slower moderate tempo, that and the shifted context becoming the more the paradigm for the tunes/songs.

When I think about it, every good player I know played in jams that were above their level, that kept the tunes in the right context. It challenged them to rise to the level. Generally they achieved this by doing what Rich suggested - layering.

I echo this advise; if you want to get good, play with people that are better than you; the best you can find who will put up with you.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 11/02/2009:  05:17:34

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??? Maybe a slow group class would be a better term than saying jam.. I see several different viewpoints coming from the definition of a jam.. Seems like theres a pretty big difference between practicing and learning/teaching (slow group) and making or playing music with others (jam) which most of us think of when we hear the word..

KL

wkb28791 - Posted - 11/02/2009:  06:19:37

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If I don't know the songs, even a slow jam is to fast. I need some kind of playing with others. The few times that I did get to play a song with others, I found that the other musicians distracted me and I'd loose my place.

I think a slow jam might be a good place to learn songs and get use to others playing along.

Regards,
wkb28791



"If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it-----Now quiet! they're about to announce the lottery numbers!"

Homer Simpson

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/02/2009:  06:50:33

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I echo the idea of playing with folks who are better than you but it's not the only path.

I've also seen folks put together garage bands of equally incompetent beginners and they all get better together by playing together. That often is the way good slow jams are put together by teachers and is also when they will help you the most.

Playing with others is the best way to learn to play well with others. Besides jamming, finding one or two others who like the same music and want to play around regularly with it can often provide the same benefits as jamming with pros.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 11/02/2009 12:08:02

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/02/2009:  07:27:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by wkb28791

If I don't know the songs, even a slow jam is to fast. I need some kind of playing with others. The few times that I did get to play a song with others, I found that the other musicians distracted me and I'd loose my place.

I think a slow jam might be a good place to learn songs and get use to others playing along.

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Don't worry about learning the songs. Focus only on recognizing the chord progression. That's step 1. If you can do that, you can function in a jam. If you know just the chords you can contribute to the overall sound which, after all, is your principal objective.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/02/2009:  08:55:17

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Its all relative to your goals with the banjo. Its not an ironclad "slow jams are bad/slow jams are great' situation. Different people have differing goals with the banjo. Some want to just pick easy songs, or take no breaks, relax and have FUN. Some aspire to loftier goals like jamming with anyone, taking breaks,etc. Some want to eventually go professional and they need/want to play with more advanced players in unstructured jams, to challenge themselves and push to get better. Who's right or wrong ? Music is what you make of it, and if you desire a slow jam and are happy with that, kudos to you. If you are bored with that and desire more, go for that. Sometimes we make these 'musical decisions' base on pressure or comments from posters on these forums. Do what feels right for you, end of story.





Oh, and here's a good definition I saw for "Jam", listed on the web:

jam session is a musical act where musicians gather and play (or simply "jam") without extensive preparation or predefined arrangements; improvisation.

Jam sessions are often used to develop new material, find suitable arrangements, or simply as a social gathering and communal practice session. Jam sessions may be based upon existing songs or forms, may be loosely based on an agreed chord progression or chart suggested by one participant, or may be wholly improvisational. Jam sessions can range from very loose gatherings of amateurs to sophisticated improvised recording sessions intended to be edited and released to the public


I dont see anywhere in this that goes against the mantra of 'slowjam'........Again, we tend to get stogidy, in our interpretaions of 'jam'.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/02/2009 09:00:29

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/02/2009:  12:05:09

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I reread the original question (love all the responses) and think slow jams can become a crutch, but not necessarily. (If your leg is broken, a crutch is necessary but the doctor said my mother-in-law was becoming too dependent on her cane and would not regain her sense of balance unless she walked without the cane regularly).

Reason I like regular jams is because I think anyone can get up to speed easily. Best example was a college kid banjoist who wanted to play Salt Creek at our jam. He started it agonizingly slow and folks were rolling their eyes so I skipped the break around the circle to a few experts who were willing to try it that slow and then sent it back to him to take it home and then I kicked it off at a reasonably quick speed and took it around the circle.

At the end, he asked me and I said it really does go that fast or a lot faster even.

Next week, he was back playing it at speed.

If I hadn't told him it goes faster, he may not even have tried it. We can argue incessantly about the proper speed to play things at, but if the people around you are holding you back instead of helping you forward, then they aren't being much help.

Of course, that is a function of the people who surround you and not necessarily a function of the speed of the music.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 11/02/2009 13:04:21

dpeters - Posted - 11/02/2009:  14:46:08

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Totally depends on what you want to achieve I would think... If a group of begginers is made to feel more confident in their playing by slow jamming then I'm guessing this would help them quickly move on to joining in with regular jam sessions. I'm not sure why anyone would choose to attend a slow jam if their capable of playing up to speed?

Can everyone get up to speed easily? The average learner with average ability may well be able to, but that's not everyone. It's very true that pickin with players better than ones self is a very valuable learning curve, but I've seen plenty of people get a real buzz from slow jamming with others, gaining the confidence to move forward in their playing. I've also seen players who have kept to themselves untill they felt they had developed enough to play at a regular jam, only to realize that picking with others is a skill in itself and keeping up with the speed is a very small part of making music with a group of people.

I think all types of jam session have their place...

Dave

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 11/03/2009:  02:08:21

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Hi Fred

I note you describe yourself as being Purty Good so I am a bit puzzled as to why you asked the question.

For someone trying to raise their skill level from beginner to say novice then the answer is yes they are a useful tool. As is practicing slowly and cleanly with the metronome.

Is practicing solo with a metronome the end goal of all banjo pickers?

Of course it's not. Like the Slow Jam it's an aid to help you become a better player.

If I be a warrior would I use only one weapon from my armoury to fight my enemy or would I use every tool that was available to me?

Regards Tam

Picking a Fender FB 58 and PROUD to describe myself as a Student of the Murphy Method

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 11/03/2009:  02:39:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

I reread the original question (love all the responses) and think slow jams can become a crutch, but not necessarily. (If your leg is broken, a crutch is necessary but the doctor said my mother-in-law was becoming too dependent on her cane and would not regain her sense of balance unless she walked without the cane regularly).

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Hi Mike

You seem to be quite an intelligent person and it puzzles me why you take this negative approach. I also see that you post a lot of messages so you are very active on the Hangout. You haven't completed your profile so we have no way of knowing what your skill level is or indeed if the advice you give is good or bad. It's also rather sad to see you don't have a single friend in the HO not even Frailin who's everybodys friend.

I am not trying to be judgement here it's simply an observation.

If you like reading can I suggest a good book that may help you win some friends.

Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle

Regards Tam

Picking a Fender FB 58 and PROUD to describe myself as a Student of the Murphy Method

TopCat - Posted - 11/03/2009:  04:59:57

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Uh-oh.........where's the popcorn smiley?

[sits back and waits for the fireworks]

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/03/2009:  06:40:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tam_Zeb
You [Mike] seem to be quite an intelligent person and it puzzles me why you take this negative approach....I am not trying to be judgement here it's simply an observation.

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Tam, I fail to see how this phrase is negative: "I think slow jams can become a crutch, but not necessarily."

Everything has pros and cons and the more you know about both, the better decisions you can make (and according to the rules, every post is supposed to take that position).

From where I sit, you are being judgmental because you only see the text you agree with and ignore the rest of what I write in the same sentence.

I could tell you to read my bio to find out why I have no friends here but I doubt you'd read all the words so the only reason I mention it is for the others who might be curious.


Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 11/03/2009 06:42:08

John Allison - Posted - 11/03/2009:  07:07:12

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This year we are going to try adding a Jam class to the local Adult Education music curriculum. Myself and a local guitar instructor are working out a class scenario with the help of Pete Wernick's jam DVDs. We are beginning with a structured slow jam much in the same manner as described by Sherry, "Texasbanjo". A lot of our attendees will be the product of classes taught at the Adult Ed Center (banjo and guitar) and, as such, dictate the necessity of the slow jam. Note to those who feel that a slow jam is a waste of time or detrimental to the learning process, a good moderator can increase the playing speed, at least to some extent, without the players ever knowing that this has happened. I have seen it happen time-and-again at banjo camps.

Froggie
"Courage is Fear that has said its prayers.

250gibson - Posted - 11/03/2009:  08:08:24

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My two cents:

A slow jam or what I call a "teaching jam" that is like a "class" ie: with a leader that teaches chord progressions, picks song choice and key, controls flow and tempo, etc. can be detrimental. Yes it gives you the opportunity to play with others in a controlled setting, however it never prepares you for the real jamming that you are in "class" to learn. When jammers that have progressed as far as the slow (teaching) jam will take them decide to move to a jam that is not considered a slow jam they are often not able to participate, because the slow jam did not teach them how to actually jam. Example: when they join the "big boy" jam, a key to a certain tune may not match the key that the slow jam did it in. Therefore, the gradutate slow jammer, has no clue, because the keys written on the paper that they brought do not match, and they never learned to transpose or read a guitar player, because they never needed to. The slow jam was always done in the same key. Also, a slow jammer usually has problems learning new songs on the fly, because they don't have the chords written out and cannot read a guitar player. Notice I said nothing about speed here.

I think more often then not "teaching jams" and "slow jams" are used synonomous, however I do not think they are the same. A teaching jam is bad for the reasons stated above. A slow jam, which is just like a normal jam, however with slower songs and some fast songs slowed down can be very benificial. It allows the new jammer to see how a jam works, and get accustomed to it at a slower pace.

GHohwald - Posted - 11/03/2009:  08:08:44

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My experience with building speed with banjo beginners and intermediates at the John C Campbell Folkschool is that the student needs to find the speed that he can comfortably play the lick or solo perfectly and start from there.. (Incidently the average age of the last class was 64)

Things we’ve discovered:

1. The song needs to be memorized to the point where the student can play it the same each time.

2. The starting speed should be where the student can play it perfectly.

3. The student needs to know where the song starts. (The downbeat or the first beat of the song.) The kick off or count off needs to be clear. We spend a lot of time showing the student how to start the song. In fact we do not proceed until the students knows where the down beat is and can start on it..

4. Once we have accomplished the above in our jam session to determine the base speed we then gradually increase the speed in increments of 5 Beats per minute. ( We are playing 4 notes of the banjo for each click of the metronome.) We typically start at 45 then go to 50 55 etc. using a metronome to make sure we are playing the correct tempo.

5. The above can be done with jam tracks, a metronome or a slow jam. When the student reaches a speed where they start to play incorrectly or not clearly, they need to return to a slower speed and then start speeding up again.

In conclusion, to the extent that a slow jam conforms with the above I feel that it is very helpful. It is certainly much more helpful than a regular jam where the student is playing faster than he is able and is reinforcing mistakes. The advantage of a slow jam over a metronome or jam tracks is that it is a social event and a lot more fun. Plus the student cannot turn off the slow jam like he can with a metronome. In addition the student receives feedback and help.

The other conclusion is that if you want to have dramatic improvement in speed and clarity, practice your licks or parts of songs in small increments with a metronome at gradually increasing speeds.

There is an article in the e zines Jan 2008 of Angies Banjo where we discuss how to use a metronome in detail.








Geoff Hohwald
http://www.freebanjovideos.com
http://www.5dollarbanjolessons.com

Tam_Zeb - Posted - 11/03/2009:  08:57:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

quote:

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Originally posted by Tam_Zeb
You [Mike] seem to be quite an intelligent person and it puzzles me why you take this negative approach....I am not trying to be judgement here it's simply an observation.

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Tam, I fail to see how this phrase is negative: "I think slow jams can become a crutch, but not necessarily."

Everything has pros and cons and the more you know about both, the better decisions you can make (and according to the rules, every post is supposed to take that position).

From where I sit, you are being judgmental because you only see the text you agree with and ignore the rest of what I write in the same sentence.

I could tell you to read my bio to find out why I have no friends here but I doubt you'd read all the words so the only reason I mention it is for the others who might be curious.


Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Hi Mike

I do read all the posts and I always try to offer a positive solution rather than offer a negative one. I have limited experience but what experience I have had is at a beginners level. And having been a Military Training Instructor in a previous life I do have some understanding of what kind of help beginners are seeking and offer guidence as to where to find material that can help them.

This is what you had to say.

quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

[quote
I think they are a waste of time. If you want to play with people, play with them. That's like saying we're going to play a game of 'slow tag.' You play tag at the level of the other players and if there are a bunch of pre-schoolers and you're the adult, you run slow and hide in easy to find places.

Most of the people at the jams want other people there which means they are friendly and helpful to newbies. Songs go at a lot of different speeds and frankly, you ought to be picking at speed within a month of starting banjo. If you aren't, I'll bet none of your songs sound like songs yet.

I think slow jams are more of a comfort factor and if they make you comfortable enough to show up and play with strangers, then they will help you musically.

However, I discourage people from organizing slow jams. Just organize jams. A slow jam that works well will eventually modify itself into a real jam OR it will hold back the participants from playing faster and learning how to learn more complex tunes.

In fact, I think the biggest impediment is the one most view as a plus: many slow jams will give you a list of allowed songs. That turns the jams into an open mike essentially. Everyone gets their break, but no one is learning how to learn new songs on the fly nor are they learning how to teach new songs on the fly. That means you still have a lot of skills unlearned that will only be learned at real jams.

Just go jam and if it doesn't work well, go again the next week. Jams run according to the people who show up, not according to the rules posted on web sites or according to the rules of the folks who showed up last week but aren't here this week.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Please tell me which part of the post is not negative.

I have read your Bio and I am sorry to learn that Eric and the Moderators have curtailed your posts. But hey the rules are there for us all to abide. I may or may not agree with every last rule but I respect Eric's right to make and enforce these rules as a condition of use.

This is what you have to say about yourself

quote:

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Why I won't be your friend.

Due to issues with Eric and the mods and their bizarre rules (which I cannot even post to complain about without getting them deleted), I refuse to participate in any hangout activities. However, I am not boycotting banjo players in general so I will continue to answer questions here until they kick me off for good. Once I'm gone, you'll have to contact me thru Banjo-L

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You are not doing yourself any favours with this kind of attitude.

I am not being judgement despite what you might think. I sincerely offered you some very good advice. It's your choice whether you want to take it up or not.

Whatever you decide I wish you well.





Regards Tam

Picking a Fender FB 58 and PROUD to describe myself as a Student of the Murphy Method

dpeters - Posted - 11/03/2009:  16:02:24

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You'll never get all the worms back in the can now..!

Miguel - Posted - 11/03/2009:  17:58:02

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One point that hasn't been emphasized is the intimidation factor. Some people feel intimidated to come to a regular jam. Labeling it a slow or beginners jam, hopefully signals that beginners are welcome. I think it helped in our area.
I agree with a lot of what minstrel mike said - a jam is ultimately a collection of people and is only as good as the people in it. And some slow jammers don't move on. That's okay, but don't get ticked off when people play harder tunes at the fast jam. And if you go to the slow jam , don't try to yard out a bunch of hot newgrass tunes.

banjer5 - Posted - 11/05/2009:  19:29:36

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The question was asked to entice comments. In my case "Slow Jams" just didn't happen when I was learning. It oviously had the desired effect with numerous comments, both pro and con. I can see where they can be very helpful to many. Thanks to all who commented & to Dr. Banjo whom I hope to see again at Argyle......or thereabouts.

Fred

Fast Freddy the engineer says: Throttle in RUN 8 and highball, then don't look back, something might be gainin' on ya. 73,s de K5BGZ

banjoak - Posted - 11/05/2009:  22:17:09

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Funny I was just thinking about three fairly well known players in their 40's and 50's who commented "back when we were learning there were no slow jams; the old masters in a jam would not slow anything down for you, you were just expected to keep up as best you could" "back then there were no instruction books, no actual teachers, no schools, no workshops, no camps. The best you could get is for someone to (outside of the jam) show you one little thing or another." "well we shouldn't knock it, we make money teaching at these camps and workshops, usually to students that have the books, participate often in slow jams, often even have had a teacher; but the same folks keep coming back year after year and don't seem to get better"

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/06/2009:  09:48:48

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I'm down on slow jams for that reason: folks who stay in them year after year don't improve their jamming skills (by definition).

But it depends on what you want to do with your time and how you want to play the banjo.
My main issue is that it doesn't teach you jamming skills. It's the difference between learning a new language classically (sentence syntax and verb tenses) vs learning via immersion (the way everyone learns their first language).
Immersion works faster for those who listen. The syntax, textbook-oriented ones appear to work and will help you pass tests, but you don't actually learn to talk unless you practice talking.
If you actually talk amongst yourselves in the class, then the class teaches you to talk. Otherwise it just teaches you a bunch of rules.

Some slow jams are better than other (just like real jams). But the worst ones are the ones with the most rules. "Bluegrass Jam Class" that teaches folks that all the banjos strum on this beat and the mandolins strum on this beat while each person plays lead. Always.
Would you like a peach. Yes I would like a peach.
Would you like an orange. Yes I would like an orange.
Would you like to learn to jam. Yes I would like to learn to jam.
Would you like to learn to respond to people when you don't know what they're going to say in the first place?
No.
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The basis of conflicting advice often comes down to a matter of choices.
If you're trying to choose between a slow jam or a fast jam, choose the fast one, especially if you want to learn to play songs up-to-speed with strangers as quickly as possible. I think most people would encourage this, even the teachers of slow jams. If you feel like trying it, go for it.
OTOH, if your personal conundrum is choosing between not going to a jam or going to a slow jam, then take the slow jam. I think most everyone would provide that advice if you asked that specific question.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

beegee - Posted - 11/06/2009:  13:16:46

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My older brother and I got new bicycles for Christmas in 1956. He was 9, I was 7. I don't know at what age the average person learns to ride a bike, but we had never had bicycles before. He used training wheels on his. I did not. I learned to ride my bike more quickly but I got hurt more. he opted for safety and security. He finally decided that if he was going to get anywhere he had take a risk and shuck the training wheels. I had 6 months of riding under my belt before he learned to ride. But, we both learned to ride.

__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca

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Edited by - beegee on 11/06/2009 13:18:03

Pete Wernick - Posted - 11/06/2009:  15:14:16

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Guess I'll weigh in here one more time. I usually agree with Minstrel Mike's advice, but I think he's painting with too broad a brush. Slow Jam Classes are not all the same

The jam camps that I've run (about 40 or 50 to date) try to provide a realistic jamming experience: small group jamming with a variety of other musicians; only the lead singer is allowed to look at a paper; people are encouraged to lead songs; everyone follows chord changes by watching a guitar player's left hand; breaks are signaled by the lead singer, not automatically assumed to go in a circle, etc. etc. BUT... the tempos are slower.

There are a fair number of rules and protocols in bluegrass jamming, and it takes a while to digest them all. My Bluegrass Jamming Pointers sheet (free at http://www.drbanjo.com/instructiona...mingtips.php) is two densely written pages. Of course there's flexibility, which is noted. Rules and protocols provide structure that allows things to happen. Think what happens when people try to play baseball and some people don't know the rules.

I don't think it's good advice to tell a new and intimidated person to attend a typical (faster) jam, because it's just too intimidating. Too much going on, leading typically to feelings of being overwhelmed and often discouraged.A lot of folks' bad experiences at overwhelming jams actually leads them to quit playing, thinking they'll never be good enough. A jam with gentle speeds gives the newbies a chance to participate more, and they might venture to lead a song or fake a solo now and again (we encourage that strongly).

If Mike or others are imagining a slow jam where everyone is looking at a printed page or responding to a leader calling out chord changes, and the repertoire is announced in advance... well then I agree that that's too much crutch, and not realistic. But gentle speeds are reasonable at first, until someone can handle the faster ones. (I'm not recommending that people stay stuck at one level of anything.)

Using the bike/training wheels analogy makes sense (I learned to ride at about age 7 with no training wheels, in about one minute, thanks to my dad's great and simple teaching method). The analogy re slow jams is to start a new bike rider, gently, in a parking lot or low-traffic bike path, not on a city street. Save that for when the skills and confidence are higher.

Pete Wernick

DrBanjo.com