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RedZinger - Posted - 10/30/2009: 01:37:07
Rather than hijack the exciting thread on modes, I'm asking this here:
What's double tonic?
Here's wikipedia's sucky definition:
"A double tonic is a chord progression, melodic motion, or shift of level consisting of a "regular back-and-forth motion", in melody similar to Bruno Nettl's pendulum type though it uses small intervals, most often a whole tone though may be almost a semitone to a minor third."
This definition doesn't make sense the way I think the term "double tonic" was used in the recent modes thread. I just read another long internet article that was equally useless to the wiki article.
What makes I Know you Rider double tonic?
Thanks for your ear.
Rob
janolov - Posted - 10/30/2009: 07:46:06
Maybe it's time for a double tonic - a double gin and tonic
.
Jan-Olov
minstrelmike - Posted - 10/30/2009: 07:49:22
A double tonic is probably a lot like the definition I just saw on slashdot:
Teutonic: not enough gin.
The way I understand double tonic is from the perspective of pentatonic scales.
If I want to play a C pentatonic, I would do C D E G A notes.
I could also play a G 'suspended' scale if I wanted: G A C D E
It works even better if you get off major scales and into mixing modes.
Consider the pentatonic tune Angeline the Bakegirl
Folks say they play it in D using the D and G chords and these notes: D E F# G A d and that works if you want to think of the song being in D.
But the song is really in A and uses this scale: A B D E F# a
If you wanted to emphasize the difference in scales, you could emphasize a different root note at different times.
More often, I think the term 'double tonic' is used in a more explanatory framework and not so much in actual played music.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
janolov - Posted - 10/30/2009: 08:10:28
When going through this stuff, including the gin and tonic (it is Friday afternoon and I have come home from work), I think we can say that double tonic can be explaied as "double nature" or "double key". The tonic is the root note in the actual key. If a tune can be interpretted to be in different keys it has to possible tonics - a double tonic. This phenomena is applicable to a lot of modal tunes where you have the root note is one note (for example A) but you use chords or scale that belongs to another key (for example the G scale or the G chord).
.
Jan-Olov
banjoak - Posted - 10/30/2009: 13:30:08
quote:
Originally posted by RedZinger
Rather than hijack the exciting thread on modes, I'm asking this here:
What's double tonic?
Here's wikipedia's sucky definition:
"A double tonic is a chord progression, melodic motion, or shift of level consisting of a "regular back-and-forth motion", in melody similar to Bruno Nettl's pendulum type though it uses small intervals, most often a whole tone though may be almost a semitone to a minor third."
That is how it was used in the discussion. We were discussing mixolydian tunes, which often get put into a double tonic feel, having a feel of A major, then G major, then back, and the tune goes back and forth between those. So it feels like it's in 2 tonics, the tonic being the center of pitch. It's that back and forth, if it just uses the G chord to go to another chord, we don't feel like it necessarily switched tonics. Dorian also feels that way to many folks; say Em and D and back and forth. Part is that we feel the Em being more associated with G-ness. The idea of double tonic is pretty debatable among professional musicologists, what exactly it is, is dorian really double, or even if double tonic even really exists. Probably far more complex than what us humble banjo players can grasp let alone explain fully. By the way, Angelina Baker IS in D. That is the tonal center, it makes no difference what note you start or end with. All of the notes are related to D, not A.
minstrelmike - Posted - 10/30/2009: 14:28:56
quote:
By the way, Angelina Baker IS in D. That is the tonal center, it makes no difference what note you start or end with. All of the notes are related to D, not A.
Beg to differ. notes used in song: D E F# A B from perspective of D root, they are 1 2 3 5 6 i.e. standard major pentatonic from perspective of A root: A B D E F#, they are 1 2 4 5 6 or a non-standard pentatonic. If the song sounds major, then it is in D. If it sounds like something else, then it is in some other key (based on some other tonal root). I choose A. Mike Moxcey http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 10/30/2009: 16:55:09
Some theorists refer to double tonic as bi-tonal. Any way you slice it, there are two strong centers of tonality(chords) without a strong V7-1 cadence that gives one a sense of a definite tonal center.
Considering a more modern example. Eleanor Rigby is fairly ambiguous harmonically. It can be played using only two chords- for example C and Em, either of which could be the tonal center. It's really only when you get to the end that you decide it's Em, but that's because it's the last chord. There's no I, IV, V7 progression. when you come to it, there's only one note difference between C and Em: C or B. From a college Harmony 1 course, you would expect it not to work, but it does.
I'll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I'll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron
RedZinger - Posted - 10/30/2009: 17:17:02
quote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldo
Any way you slice it, there are two strong centers of tonality(chords) without a strong V7-1 cadence that gives one a sense of a definite tonal center.
Bob Cameron
This seems to me to be a clear, sensible and intuitive description of double tonic. Thanks, Rob
banjoak - Posted - 10/30/2009: 17:54:14
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
quote:
By the way, Angelina Baker IS in D. That is the tonal center, it makes no difference what note you start or end with. All of the notes are related to D, not A.
Beg to differ.
notes used in song: D E F# A B
from perspective of D root, they are 1 2 3 5 6 i.e. standard major pentatonic
from perspective of A root: A B D E F#, they are 1 2 4 5 6 or a non-standard pentatonic.
If the song sounds major, then it is in D.
If it sounds like something else, then it is in some other key (based on some other tonal root).
I choose A.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
It's the harmonic relationship between the notes. The major event notes happen on A, D and F#, the major triad of D; as well the B makes a good solid sixth. The tune is just filled with lots of phrases A to D; D to A; D to F#; F# to D. Most people play D chords. Then the D to B phrases, as a sixth, or move the chord to a IV. I suppose you could make it into a pentatonic A no third tune, and I like those tunes (to me they usually have a G rather than a F#), I suppose you you could play it against an A chord and E7. But the standard Angeline melody doesn't quite have the A no third sound. Those tunes much more have notes that land the fifth of A, the E note, phrases that go from A to E or E to A; the way most folks play Angeline the E is more of a just mid phrase note. The D in those tunes is used as more a mid phrase note. I'm not sure how you would account for all the D-ness. As well you could voice the tune based on Bm7, and call it B dorian. Could probably voice it a lot of ways, apply enough music theory explanation to it. It could be called G major, E minor, E dorian, A mixolydian, F# locrian (play an augmented 5). I suppose you could even say it was in F major with a bunch of diminished and augmentations, complete with a complex logical explanation. But I think most folks, musicologists included, would consider Angeline as all the hallmarks of D major, based on the context of the notes. If it looks like a duck. If you want to play it with others, they will probably play D. They are quite happy with it sounding like a duck. Good luck with convincing the others it's not in D.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/30/2009: 21:38:46
I probably should not have mentioned this in the Mode thread.
In this particular discussion I was referring to the fact that Mixolydian and Dorian tunes tend to have a dual tonality based around the "tonic" note and the 7th note of the scale (this is a minor 7th note in both cases (F in the key of G).
Unfortunately there is more than one similar term used and I no doubt used the wrong one. Using the wrong one gets you all involved in Charles Ives whereas I meant the one that would be more closely related to Burl Ives.
Bitonal or Duotonal or Bitonic or Duotonic or Bi-Duo-whatever is not the kind of subject that would get its own Wikipedia page. I have mostly heard the term used in connection with folk music (something too unimportant to get into the Harmony books (I think It might be in my musical dictionary however, and will check over the weekend - if I can find it).
For now just think of it as a peculiarity of modal music whereby the tonal center of a tune vacillates between two notes a full tone apart, and thereby two chords in the same relationship. In Mixolydian the higher chord is Major (think Bluegrass June Apple A and G) but in Dorian the higher chord is minor (think Shady Grove Am and G Major chords). These two chords are all that are ever needed to harmonize melodies in Mixo or Dorian..
Angeline the Baker is not a bi-tonal-tonic-whatever tune. It is in Major mode - Angeline is a Pentatonic tune, but not a Duo-tonal-tonic-whatever tune.
The only ways I have ever played "Rider" it would not qualify either. Remember there is a lot of music that does not fall into the catagory "modal" but that is "modal sounding". It could very well be that Rider started as a modal tune (or the melody could still be modal) but chords have been added like MSG in your Campbell soup
Ahh hah! I do remember where I have recently run across the use of the term I need - in reference to Scots pipe music - most of which is either Mixo or Dorian in nature, but some could be in other modes. I'll check that over the weekend too.
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Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
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banjoak - Posted - 10/30/2009: 22:45:27
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
In Mixolydian the higher chord is Major (think Bluegrass June Apple A and G) but in Dorian the higher chord is minor (think Shady Grove Am and G Major chords). These two chords are all that are ever needed to harmonize melodies in Mixo or Dorian..
I think just thinking of Mixolydian as that two chord thing is wrong. It's not in the chords. Clearly lots of tunes in a certain southern style that are melodically Mixolydian, John Henry, OJC, June Apple; yet they contain no VII chord at all. The chord structure for TJ's June Apple; low part, A-A-A-D-A-A-A/E-A ; high part A-A-E-E-A-A-A/E-A. No G, no feeling of a second key, or tonic move. That's one possibility. The bluegrass one is another. Both Mixolydian. The mode just defines the melodic scale used. You can harmonize any mode in many different ways.
minstrelmike - Posted - 10/31/2009: 09:23:10
I cannot argue with the way anyone hears, but Angeline does not sound like a major key song to me (nor anyone I've ever talked to) which means it is either in some other root (mode) or is in some other mode/scale of D.
It can be explained theoretically in multiple ways, but I don't know of anyone who says it sounds like a major key song. The first and last notes are A. The only major key song I know of that has identical beginning and ending notes that aren't the root is The First Noel.
Playing across the major pentatonic (which comes from the first 5 fifths) from different 'roots' was the start of western modes and of eastern music in general. The west eventually made the scale equal-tempered while the east did not so they get different sounds from doing the 'same' mode on a pentatonic scale.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/01/2009: 15:12:13
Only about 80 percent of tunes end on their tonic notes. The scale Fifth is more or less the remaining 20 percent and ALL other notes comprise a trace percent. This was the way it was presented to me in my high school music theory class. I doubted the percentages were accurate at the time (It all sounded too pat - but I always thought Dr. Hock was full of... er... beans). However, a lot of reading tunes since then has led me to believe the numbers are probably not far off.
"Angeline The Baker" is a fiddle tune based on a Stephen Foster song "Angelina Baker". I've never met anyone who played the fiddle tune out of any key other than D, but will admit it is a rather odd melody. I'll have to lay both the tunes (Foster and the fiddle tune) out and look the situation over.
I know I would not call it Bi-tonal-tonic-whatever, as there is no C in the melody, and it can't be bi-whoosit of A either with no G.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
banjoak - Posted - 11/02/2009: 03:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
...... Angeline does not sound like a major key song to me (nor anyone I've ever talked to) which means it is either in some other root (mode) or is in some other mode/scale of D.
It can be explained theoretically in multiple ways, but I don't know of anyone who says it sounds like a major key song. The first and last notes are A.
I think you are really stuck on two old ideas. The first and last notes determine the root, and somewhat that a mode/scale is one octave. Angeline could be described as not D major, if you want to go back to the old ecclesiastical and plagal systems of describing music over 500 years ago. Just how old are you? They viewed music as contained it's ambitus, it's range originally in one octave. The key or root of the modes was referred to on that octave, like A to a, was the key of A (whatever mode). They also had the idea of the finalis note, the note the tune ends on. And the dominant (which is different than we use it today, also called the tenor or reciting tone) If the tune's finalis was the same as the ambitus it was an authentic mode. So Angeline would seem to fit A mixolydian, except it doesn't have the right dominant. They realized some tunes start a fourth lower than the finalis, so they came up with modes called plagal, which added the prefix hypo. Technically supposed to end on the finalis of the fourth though. Then they came up with the idea of a shifted finalis. So Angeline could be thought of in terms it's in Hypo-mixolydian A (A to a, with a dominant of D) with a shifted finalis (A instead of d). They were sticklers for rules, and they had lots of complex rules for how the music worked, what you could and couldn't do. (could Angeline follow all those rules?) The rules kept getting more and more complex, to allow them to do more stuff. Different names for tunes that started on a different note than it's mode, rules allowing for going slightly past the ambitus. Then the whole B note (in C) thing needed a whole set of rules. Originally they didn't even have an Ionian of Aeolian modes, they came up with the idea of mixed modes. Much started making it more confusing than clarifying. And then they wanted to harmonize music, and the rules and explanations get even more convaluted. They also believed the sun and planets and stars revolved around the earth. Somewhere about 500 years ago (these new fangled ideas) they abandoned this way of describing, someone figured out that music doesn't have to be in one octave, and they already knew it didn't have to start with the finalis and could end with a shifted finalis. They came up with what we now call the 7 Renaissance modes. Complete with Ionian and Aeolian. What they figured was the key/mode is a system of harmonic relationships revolving around a central pitch. The key/mode has nothing to do with what note the tune starts on or ends on. So A Hypomixolydian is really the same as D Ionian, or in modern terms D major. It simplified much of the rules and explanations, and allowed for many other things to happen that were previously forbidden by the rules. The harmonization started to make sense. They even have terminology for ending on the fifth, they call it an imperfect melodic cadence. All of this has nothing to do with equal temperament and also is not exactly the same as major/minor system. Somehow traces of that idea of starting and final note, and one octave kind of stuck around. Not sure why. So you have a choice. Now maybe you and all of your friends who think Angeline is definitely not D major, hang around singing Gregorian chants. You can show up at a jam and tell folks you are going to play this tune in A Hypo-mixolydian, and that it has a shifted finalis. Good luck with that. Most banjo players I know would have no idea how to tune their banjo to that. Most of the folks I know think in more modern terms. So in Angeline, all the notes relationships revolve around D. Clawhammer Banjo players would probably opt to tune to a D tuning. Fiddlers would often opt for a D tuning. The guitar would probably play mostly D. The chord that makes the tune sound resolved is D (even though the melody has an imperfect cadence, the chord has a perfect cadence). You can end it with an A chord but it sound unresolved, exactly the same way any tune sounds when it ends on its V chord. If I told them it's in the key of D, they would tune to D, and expect to play D chords. That just seems the easiest way to describe it, it all conforms to this modern notion of D. But that's my friends, we might be oddballs, we all hear as belonging to D major. Plenty of tunes also don't start with the root. Many start with a fifth below (Sugar Hill, Sandy River Bell); fifth above (Shootin Creek); or a third above (Fly around); even a sixth (Cumberland Gap) You could look at Fly Around as being some form of an old F#mode, (starting on the third was not allowed in the old system) I don't know how that would help you. While most tunes melodically end on the tonic root, not all do, and it does not change the key or mode. A common one is ending in an imperfect cadence. They also refer to it as having a circular ending. Shootin Creek; Jackie Wilson; Big Liza Jane (New Cut Bank); all of those me and my friends consider "D major". There's a whole bunch of Irish tunes that don't end on the root note. ------- The original Foster version is clearly in the major key, in the major/minor system, an even more modern notion. Melodically it's a little different than the fiddle tune most play, it clearly goes to the V chord in a spot, but just has the standard I-IV-V chords. But one can see how the fiddle tune came out of it.
RedZinger - Posted - 11/02/2009: 09:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
Angeline could be described as not D major, if you want to go back to the old ecclesiastical and plagal systems of describing music over 500 years ago....
Interesting note. Thank you. BTW I've always thought of (heard) Angeline as D major -- no problem. Rob
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/02/2009: 12:14:06
I suspect it is the use of a pentatonic scale in a major mode that throws it out of kilter. Because, thinking about it (after years of playing it without thinking) the tune IS strange. I'm going to drop by the library and see if I can get the Stephen Foster Songbook on my way home.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/02/2009: 13:00:08
For those who are reading through all this kewl info, here is the way I define musical terms.
Key is the basic root of the scale. If you were making a chord out of the scale, the basic name of the chord would be called the root or the key.
There are 12 different possible keys, named after the 12 tones of the chromatic scale or circle of fifths.
scale is a series of spaces between notes. Any scale can start on any of the 12 different roots or keys. When people speak of 'key,' they generally mean major scale and that initial confusion carries on throughout many discussions.
You can have a major scale (Ionian mode) in each of the 12 keys.
You can also have a minor scale or any of the other modes in each of the 12 keys.
You can play the blues scale in each of the 12 different keys.
/* in addition, the major scale is different depending on whether you are discussing well-tempered or equal-tempered music but that is a different discussion */
1. Key is not the same as scale.
2. If you stick with named scales, then you must work around their restrictions when playing modern music. I recognize a lot more 'scales' than classic music theorists do and that is part of how we argue past each other in these discussions.
For example, John Coltrane's music can be explained in terms of modes very easily because that's how he learned music and that's how he thinks about it when he composes. However, I can also explain it from the point of view of chord collections and generalized, non-modal scales.
Irving Berlin's music can also be explained and played via modes or via the chord progression method. However, Berlin did _not_ compose his music from the perspective of modes. I think much of music theory is the same as literary analysis. The professor can document all the symbolism he wants around what the white whale means in the context of the novel and each reader will bring his or her own perspective to the reading, but
1) none of the interpretations exactly match what Melville was trying for (if he meant any symbolism whatsoever) and
2) all of the various interpretations _are_ correct because if that's what the novel means to you, then that's what it means.
To you.
================================
I have never heard of a tonal center being different from the root but I am not heavy into theory (musical) and stuff like that wouldn't surprise me. What I have read up some on is the idea of drones. Many folks think of the drone as the key or as a tonal centre of a song but a drone can be independent and force an unconventional harmony. Bagpipe music for example.
=================================================
I play Angeline the Bakegirl using these notes A B D E F# and these chords: D and G
I play Shortning Bread using these notes D E F# A B and these chords: D and A.
Those two songs that use the same 5 notes sound like they are different in some way to me.
And no amount of symbolism changes that.
For either of us.
If you hear the major key in both those songs, you will explain them both the same way. If you hear them differently, then the two songs require a different symbolic basis.
But the basis doesn't determine how anyone hears them; it only determines how we each attempt to explain what we hear.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
gottasmilealot - Posted - 11/02/2009: 15:55:08
My head hurts.  I'm glad you all have the tonic stuff under control...
Keith
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 11/02/2009: 18:49:55
quote:
Originally posted by gottasmilealot
My head hurts. I'm glad you all have the tonic stuff under control...
Keith
What you need for that headache is a good tonic (or two, maybe) I'll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I'll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl deligo ergo renideo, Bob Cameron
banjoak - Posted - 11/03/2009: 02:11:17
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
Key is the basic root of the scale. If you were making a chord out of the scale, the basic name of the chord would be called the root or the key.
There are 12 different possible keys, named after the 12 tones of the chromatic scale or circle of fifths.
scale is a series of spaces between notes. Any scale can start on any of the 12 different roots or keys. When people speak of 'key,' they generally mean major scale and that initial confusion carries on throughout many discussions.
1. Key is not the same as scale.
2. If you stick with named scales, then you must work around their restrictions when playing modern music. I recognize a lot more 'scales' than classic music theorists do and that is part of how we argue past each other in these discussions.
I have never heard of a tonal center being different from the root........
I think you are confusing that definition of "root" and key - and the way many textbooks and teachers explain it can lead one to that erroneous idea. Something about the root is the first note in the scale and the other notes go up the scale from there. What I gather is that you are calling A the root. Again something do do with the start note, end note, the lowest note and highest note. But the scale can go DOWN as well. So if you look at D major, starting with a D go up d, e, f#, g, a, b (and could continue up) - and if you go down from that D - d, c#, B, A, (and it could continue down G, F#, E, D, C#, B, A) Tunes do not need to start, end or have there lowest note on their key name, or tonic. The key is the central pitch (tonic) to which the other notes form a harmonic relationship. Then the mode forms harmonic relations of other notes, thus creating a spacing (scale) from that center (either direction). [I like the idea the harmonic relationships create the scales, rather than the scales create the harmonic relationships, because of such confusion of scales] I think term "root" better works for chords than scale, which I would use "tonic". As far as making a chord out of the scale, I'm not sure what you are meaning there, a chord with all the notes in the scale would sound pretty discordant, but maybe you mean the triad. So you play a D chord for most of the tune, the root of a D chord is D is it not. You can add a lower fifth, (A) to that D chord, it's still a D chord, D is still the root. As a matter of fact you can play those three notes in any order and it's still a D chord. All of this has nothing to do with recognizing a lot more 'scales' than classic music theorists, or working around some restrictions. quote:
I play Angeline the Bakegirl using these notes A B D E F# and these chords: D and G
I play Shortning Bread using these notes D E F# A B and these chords: D and A.
Those two songs that use the same 5 notes sound like they are different in some way to me.
And no amount of symbolism changes that.
For either of us.
If you hear the major key in both those songs, you will explain them both the same way. If you hear them differently, then the two songs require a different symbolic basis.
Well yes they sound different, as do probably hundreds other D major tunes different from each other. Nothing of what makes the tunes sound different has anything to do with what mode/scale they are in. I have no idea what symbolism you are referring to. A triad of D, F# and A notes (especially in the context of Angeline's melody) is literally a D major chord. What would you call it? First Noel ends on the third not a fifth. Yet it is still a major key song. quote:
it only determines how we each attempt to explain what we hear.
This is a forum on "Music Theory" - music theory is to explain what we hear, how music works, to expand out knowledge. Not misinformation, or myths. What we hear as far as harmonic relationships, (not if it sounds happy or sad) It's about communication. D major seems to communicate and explain Angeline quite well. Everything about the tune can be explained with the harmonic relationships of D major. Just because YOU can't hear the harmonic relationships doesn't mean they aren't there. But if you have some unique solid music theory to explain your idea of modes/scales (byond you don't hear the harmonic relationship) I would be interested in hearing it, and how it works.
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/03/2009: 06:52:51
The root is the beginning of the scale (whether you go up or down) and yes, I am saying that A is the root of Angeline, that it is in a mode of some kind. If someone wished to claim it is in a D mode of some kind, I wouldn't argue too much but will argue (or have argued and will probably give up on this thread) that it is NOT D Major/Ionian.
The two drones I hear used are D and A. And you did correctly point out the issue is partly one of going up or down. If I think the root is D and the other main note is A, then I have a perfect fifth and I could say the song is in a major key (or a minor or some other mode if I only consider the 5th).
However, if I hear the the root as A and the other important note is D, then I have a fourth relationship that is 'defining' that song to my ear and what I hear in Angeline sounds suspended.
/* and yes, anyone who has followed this thread thus far knows a fifth up is a fourth down */
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
banjoak - Posted - 11/03/2009: 19:56:26
Ha, ha - I was wondering how long it would take you to try use the "it must be the fourth relationship to the A"
You can believe the sun goes around the earth, even though you can't explain how the the relationships of the planets and can't see how the earth could possibly revolve around the Sun, despite explanation you can't counter. It just doesn't seem right to you.
I just wouldn't want you teaching astronomy to anyone.
Either you have have unique knowledge to share about how modes, harmonic relationships, scales work, that at minimum would explain why Angeline is not D major/ionian/pentatonic (I'd be glad to listen) or you really don't know how harmonic relationships work, and don't want (for your own reason) any explanation from anyone involved with "theorist". I'm guessing the latter.
Even though Angeline is entirely and fairly easily explained as D major/ionian/pentatonic. There is nothing about it that is not D major/ionian/pentatonic. It doesn't seem right to you. You can't counter why or how it's not, nor explain what else it is, or how your, or any harmonic relationships work.
I don't mean to be harsh. If you don't understand it's no sin. And there is no reason you have to fully understand to play music.
What you present (it just doesn't sound like D or major to you) is not music theory. Please don't pass along misinformation you don't understand. I don't see how you are helping anyone with a better understanding of music with your confusion.
If you want explanation I can try and explain better (tell what part you don't get) If you really got alternative explanation that ties it all together - then explain, I'm all ears.
janolov - Posted - 11/04/2009: 00:00:13
I would say the Angeline is not a straight major/ionian/pentatonic!
Studying just the melody, and don't bothering how people use to accompany it, it is not unambiguous if the key is D or A! That depends on the end tone is A, and the end tone should usually be the root and give an impression to be the the root. And if the (hidden) key is A you can't tell if it's in major or minor, because the fourth of the A scale i not played.
.
Jan-Olov
banjoak - Posted - 11/04/2009: 01:14:25
quote:
Originally posted by janolov
I would say the Angeline is not a straight major/ionian/pentatonic!
Studying just the melody, and don't bothering how people use to accompany it, it is not unambiguous if the key is D or A! That depends on the end tone is A, and the end tone should usually be the root and give an impression to be the the root. And if the (hidden) key is A you can't tell if it's in major or minor, because the fourth of the A scale i not played.
.
Jan-Olov
There is this music theory 101 idea that the melody HAS to end on the tonic (I think there is confusion in this term root). It just ain't so. There are just far too many example where it doesn't. It's called an imperfect cadence. It doesn't change the key or mode. Reread your theory, (hopefully written by someone with more than a sophmore music education), it probably says as you (even stated) it "usually' or "often" ends on the tonic. Another way to test is; what note does the melodic (or harmonic) context sound "resolved" - that is the tonic, the home. The exact reason Angeline sounds strange to you is it ends sounding slightly unresolved. Even more unresolved with a V chord. What chord sounds "resolved". D major! Now if you look at it from harmonic relationships ALL of the notes, the phrases revolve around a note of D on the strong beats, mostly A to D; F# to D; D to A; D to F#; high A to F# - a strong presence of the fifth (A) and third (F#). The F# would unambiguously say major/Ionian. The only other strong phrases are A to B and D to B the end cadence of the each first half of the parts (leading away from "home", very common at that point in tunes) the B being a strong major sixth, again strengthening the D major idea. It could be also considered harmonically as going to the IV chord there, also common strong D major idea. All of that SCREAMS D major/Ionian/pentatonic. That's Music Theory. If you can the idea of not ending on the tonic, it explains, and can be used to expand understanding possible ways a major/Ionian/pentatonic can work, how notes relate to each other, what roles each note plays, how one arrives at determining key and mode, how it works in other tunes of the same nature. Let's look at your explanation of what it is to further our understanding of how music works...... ah let's see........ ah..... it's in some undefinable key, some undefinable mode, neither major nor minor, has some hidden key (bi-tonal?) which we don't know what that is. It's somehow in A yet doesn't use a strong fifth (the most common and strongest interval in all music) So A sans fifth or third? Harmonically starts with the 4th, then I guess goes to the VII chord yet never ever hits the I chord, let alone have a I chord make it feel "resolved"? Explain to me how to utilize your explanation to expand my knowledge of music. What can I do with this information? While I studied quite a bit of the worlds music and ethnological music theory, I have much more I would like to learn, I am certainly open to clear explanation, and want to expand my knowledge of different forms of how music works. I just don't at all get your explanation of how it works, mor why it's not D major/Ionian/pentatonic.
unguis - Posted - 11/04/2009: 07:33:36
I can tell who of you have had a theory class... But please re-read your music theory books before you go on a rant
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/04/2009: 10:17:39
Unguis.
If you have valuable knowledge please instruct us. Just telling us to re-read a book the size of "Piston's Harmony" is of no value to anyone.
I can't find the S. Foster Songbook, some inconsiderate library user has actually taken in out. Does anyone have a reliable copy of Angelina Baker around or know of one on the web? I have always assumed it would be in Major mode but have to admit that I've only glanced at the tune once in the nearly 40 years I've been playing it, and changes might have been made. We have done it in A (a fourth down from D) and I'm not sure what chording we use as I play it on the banjo, and pretty much stick to the melody.
I also find myself unsure of the harmony in the D fiddle tune "Angeline The Baker" As I recall we and most jams used the D Maj chord and a B min --- no G chord at all. It sounds like that is not the way it is normally played among people on this forum. Is this correct?
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banjoak - Posted - 11/04/2009: 11:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Unguis.
If you have valuable knowledge please instruct us. Just telling us to re-read a book the size of "Piston's Harmony" is of no value to anyone.
I can't find the S. Foster Songbook, some inconsiderate library user has actually taken in out. Does anyone have a reliable copy of Angelina Baker around or know of one on the web? I have always assumed it would be in Major mode but have to admit that I've only glanced at the tune once in the nearly 40 years I've been playing it, and changes might have been made. We have done it in A (a fourth down from D) and I'm not sure what chording we use as I play it on the banjo, and pretty much stick to the melody.
I also find myself unsure of the harmony in the D fiddle tune "Angeline The Baker" As I recall we and most jams used the D Maj chord and a B min --- no G chord at all. It sounds like that is not the way it is normally played among people on this forum. Is this correct?
I have a pretty old copy of Foster songs, somewhere, I recall it published in 1880's. A few bands have recorded that version. Critten Hollow, Beverly Smith. The song is typically played in A major, clearly in A major, using I-IV-V chords. The fiddle tune A low part has it's basis in the chorus of the song. The verses start with a third down to the tonic phrase, end the first half of the verse on a V chord (melodically a second, fifth of the V), then back to a third tonic phrase, to a IV, V and at the end of the verse the tune melodically ends on the tonic rather than the fifth. The chorus starts with the lower melodic fifth against the I chord, just like the fiddle tune, but the end of the first half climbs to a B note again representing the fifth of the V chord. And then like the verse ends up going through a I-IV-V-I progression melodically and harmonically ending on the tonic. The other significant difference is he melodically used all of the notes of the major scale. I recall the folio I had did match pretty well what Critton Hollow played, except I think they simplified the chords a little more, the folio might have included some transitional chords, typical of the professional song writing of that era. Now if you hear the song in some context of E major or some mysterious bi-tonal hidden key, none of the above will make sense to you. The fiddle tune got transposed to D, and converted to a pentatonic mode. The Bm choice for that chord is a logical choice, especially the phrase that goes from F# down to D down to B; (in someways it makes more sense than G, that' more complicated than what I want to get into) does not change it out of D major. The harmonization, in this context is a choice. Many old time style do not like the minor sound in major tunes, and typically play a IV, even when a phrase may more indicate a sixth minor. ---------- One of the easiest books on music theory, put into really simple terms, is "Lies My Music Teacher Told Me" by Gerald Eskelin. Despite what you might think about the title, he's not throwing out old theory and coming out with new. It's just a better explanation, than what often gets taught. What music teachers, especially at the beginning can be and is easily misinterpreted leading to more confusion and a bunch of myths, and half-truths. He presents looking at the pitch components not through scales, but through harmonic relationships. His view is scales are built out of harmonic relationships, not the other way around. So learning scales just to memorize scales isn't particularly effective to help understand music. He bases a lot on what we hear, rather than looking at a mathematical symbolism. HEARING - D, F#, and A as being related is far better than formulatic THINKING 1, 3, and 5th notes of the scale, "the first note, count up 3 , and count up 2 more". He also has half of the book devoted to easier understanding of rhythm. It's not a big book, readily available at the big box bookstores and online.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/05/2009: 17:17:24
I'll check it out.
I was pretty sure Angelina was in a full diatonic scale as opposed to the pentatonic scale of the fiddle tune, but I didn't want to flatly state that since I don't know what I might have done to the tune and what the people I learned the tune from might have done before me.
Since the fiddle tune doesn't come up more than a couple times a year, and only at jams. My wife has to remind me that: "Angeline has the Bm and Sugar Hill has the G." That way I remember to play the correct low part.
And yes - there is no way in --- There is no way Angeline is Bi-tonal-tonic-whatever.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
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banjoak - Posted - 11/05/2009: 19:01:04
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Since the fiddle tune doesn't come up more than a couple times a year, and only at jams. My wife has to remind me that: "Angeline has the Bm and Sugar Hill has the G." That way I remember to play the correct low part.
And yes - there is no way in --- There is no way Angeline is Bi-tonal-tonic-whatever.
I am still looking for my old Foster book, it's quite rare, I put it somewhere for safe keeping. I do recall it was the same as a version published in the I think 1950's that I got from the library, and matched pretty well (other than some slight performance ornamental variance) the recordings I have. I also am thinking now that the tune might have been written in another key, A Flat or F comes to mind. But I might be thinking another song from the book. That is not particularly important in this discussion anyway. Clearly diatonic. Funny I have always heard people play Angeline with G; Sugar Hill often folks use a B minor (cause of much debate) I like Sugar Hill with G more, but not a stickler, depends on who I am playing with, which way the majority goes. I actually never thought about how close those tunes were to each other, until I was playing a dance last year; and someone suggested Angeline after we just played SH, and my student fiddler I who was playing with us said she couldn't do the one right after the other without mixing it up. And the version we play of SH is almost exactly the same melodic structure and contour, other than slight difference in ornamentation and syncopation, the most important difference is the last note. Angeline goes F#, E, D, B to A (the fifth) down; SH goes F#, F# E, D, B to D (the tonic) up. Never heard anyone call SH bi-tonal or anything other than D major.
janolov - Posted - 11/06/2009: 00:11:48
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
My wife has to remind me that: "Angeline has the Bm and Sugar Hill has the G." That way I remember to play the correct low part.
From the Rocky Science banjo I learned the opposite. The tabs show Angeline has the G and Sugar Hill has the Bm.  . Jan-Olov
banjoak - Posted - 11/06/2009: 03:09:57
quote:
Originally posted by janolov
quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
All of that SCREAMS D major/Ionian/pentatonic.
There are sources that presents Angeline as A major/pentatonic with (more or less) the identical melody as the D-version, with the difference that the melody ends up with a A major chord, instead of the D chord:
http://www.theharem.net/dnload/songlist.pdf
http://jc.tzo.net/~jc/tmp/Tune4717.pdf
--------------
From the Rocky Science banjo I learned the opposite. The tabs show Angeline has the G and Sugar Hill has the Bm.
Interestingly, your link shows Angeline going to Bm clearly in the B part. It's just a harmonic choice, does not affect the key it's in. Either works fine, depends on who you are playing with and what you want it to sound like. Likewise the ending A chord. It's a choice. (which I had mentioned in an early post) However in your example the key signature is D major! A major would need another #. So are you saying what defines the key and mode is the final chord? So this is a concept that some folks got because they are sure they read somewhere, in some music theory book, or some music authority said, "the chord the tune ends on is the key and mode". It is similar to the "the tune ends on a tonic" NO exception. They can't explain why, they are just sure because they read the rules. Play a D chord, then a G chord, then a D chord, then finally an A chord. Does it sound resolved? Now for most people it does not. Now do the above and after the A, play a D chord. Now does it sound resolved? For most people it does. It ain't no Piston's Music theory, or any thick book. It's the physical nature of music. So you can hold onto your rule if you want, but what's it get you. Or you can get rid of that rule. So the rules I and most theorists (at least everyone I read) follow. 1. The previous explanation of what determines key and mode. 2. The tune does not have to end on the tonic. 3. The tune does not have to end on it's key name chord. The first set of rules has been around since at least the old Greek Ptolemy, but not really based on scales, circle of fifths, any thick music theory book, but purely on the physical nature of harmonic relationships. The second rule has been used for at least 1000 years. The third rule has been used since fairly early on with the introduction of chord theory and major/minor system at least 300 years. These are the harmonic rules that have served to explain music for a long time in the past until the present day. It serves well as communication. As well every trusted reference to Angeline I've seen, including your example reinforces it in D major, and not one contradicts it. So they must be following the same rules. Why does it make a difference? Well if you can understand the harmonic relationship rules and naming convention of Angeline, it becomes portable knowledge, you can use that to help identify key and mode of other tunes. You have a choice. Look at in a way that makes sense and communicates to most of the world. Or look at in your own special unique way, that doesn't explain much of how music works to everyone. I'm not sure what believing it's in A major does for helping you understand how the world works, form any better understanding of how music works, be able to apply it to other tunes. Nor help with any communication. To me it would just make it all more confusing. Maybe you have better deeper knowledge than the rest of us, including the durn music theorists, who got it all wrong. Something that communicates better. But really I am always open to new ways of understanding, something I might be missing, better explanation and maybe you have something different that I can then take to open up a whole new understanding to other tunes.
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 11/06/2009: 11:31:12
This is a fascinating thread. I always took the key of D for granted in Angeline - just based on what my ears told me. I appreciate banjoak and others taking the time to present clear and (to me) thought-provoking discussion on these essential elements of harmony.
Cheers,
Laurence
It takes a lot to laugh, but it takes a train to cry
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/07/2009: 21:38:29
Well, I guess I managed to reverse that in my head -- That's why my wife has to remind me which one goes to which chord. Right now, however, in my head I hear Angeline as having a Bm, and I indeed hear Sugar Hill as having a G. I tend to suspect that either tune can work jes'fine with either chord, and the reciting of the mantra, simply helps me play the right Low Part.
No matter what I hear, I have to accept the word of Rocky Squirrel Banjo. It is the ultimate source for true banjo facts.
Now if I could only remember what this was all about - without reading it all again. Being dyslexic is hard enough without trying to figure out what I was trying to say.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 11/07/2009 21:41:48
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