5strbanjo - Posted - 10/29/2009:  13:31:20

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...so I'm 63, been going at this banjo thing for ten+ years...but still not able to play fast and smooth...anyone have any suggestions for exercises that may be helpful...or maybe advice to give up and be happy with not playing fast?

CG - Posted - 10/29/2009:  13:48:07

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Hi
I practise roll patterns using a metronome and playing songs along with it.
I think too much importance is placed on speed. If playing at a slower medium speed allows you to play smoothly and evenly it is far more enjoyable than racing along and losing it. Also this will bring out note definition and allow grace notes to be heard and make the song sound fuller.
Enjoy playing in your own comfort zone and don't worry about playing as fast as a pro.

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Clive
Stay nice!

banjobilly32 - Posted - 10/29/2009:  13:51:27

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Work on playing clean and with expression first. Speed comes after you have mastered a particular tune or lick. Too many aspiring players try to exceed their capabilities by playing at breakneck speed. You must have all the basics down pat before trying the super speed route.
Pick out a favorite tune and then start by playing it slow and as clean as you can get it. If you can, record it when you first start, then after a few days record it again. You might be encouraged with the results.

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/29/2009:  14:01:32

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Simplify what you do.

I think the _only_ advice I've ever seen for playing fast is to not speed up and lose accuracy. That's Horse Puckey.
It's an excellent way of achieving accuracy, not speed.
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Here is how you diagnose what's happening.

How fast can you play the forward roll: TM TIM TIM on just the 1st, 2nd and 5th strings? Try it. No lefthand chording or licks, just straight-up right hand roll on these strings: 21 521 521

Whatever you can do is going to be your maximum speed unless you practice speeding that up. You have to do at least 10 rolls in row.

Now try doing the roll on just the 1st, 3rd and 5th strings: 31 531 531
AS FAST AS POSSIBLE (we're working on speed not accuracy)

Then try the 4th string
then see if you can do the roll on different strings: 21 531 541 as fast as possible.

If it gets slower when you change strings, well then that's what you work on.

If it doesn't get slower (I rarely see that happen), then the next thing is to play your basic roll twice, make a c chord and keep playing the roll. If you slow down when making the chord, you've got an issue with left-right coordination.

I think you fix that by going back to strumming and seeing if you can get a strum pattern going and then change chords. If you can't change chords without messing up the strumming, then it ain't gonna work with picking either.
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Those are usually the two biggest issues I see with speed.
One is not practicing it. Take every other day and work on playing as fast as possible with a few lefthand changes.

The other issue is that folks cannot switch chords in time. Work on strumming to get that. If you can't put a chord down without waiting for it, then that is usually the problem with your licks, too.
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The third problem is mixing rolls. You have a forward roll and a reverse roll and a square roll but cannot easily switch between them. I practice that by fretting the 1st string 5th fret, 2nd string 8th fret and only playing the rolls on the 1st, 2nd and 5th strings. They are all the same note. Playing like this will even out your rolls faster than using a metronome will.

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I would most definitely not give up wanting to play fast.
I think most people start wrong and a few coordinated ones get lucky with it.

How most folks start is with some complicated arrangement of finger-picking and then try to work it up to where it sounds good.

That's like trying to ride a bike by going real slow first and then gradually speeding up. You only fall over.

First get a rhythm with your roll and then add chords. That way you have the rhythm. In fact, if you haven't tried it, put away your picks, get an Eagles or a Beatles songbook, and spend one day a week chording songs. If you cannot get a good rhythm simply strumming, it's hard to get simply fingerpicking.

OTOH, I have seen dramatic improvement in people once I get them to feel the rhythm, either by strumming familiar but non-banjo songs or playing normal banjo songs at a speed where it sounds like music.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 11/02/2009 06:44:16

Cornflake - Posted - 10/29/2009:  14:24:22

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In the Jens Kruger video I'm watching he suggests what others have said above, with a few twists: Take a song that you REALLY know well and start by playing absolutely as slowly as possible. Keep at this for a while (I'd follow Minstrelmike's suggestions above to building speed). Also, relax your right hand as much as possible. He says just plop it down on the head like a piece of meat.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I love my excellent sense of humor. Unfortunately it gets me into trouble, and un-funny people think I'm an idiot.

Erbus - Posted - 10/29/2009:  14:55:43

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Seems the goal with the banjo and really all instruments is speed, it just comes with the territory. I don't know how fast you're playing now, 80 BPM, 100, 130??? The pros kick it up to 180.
Do you play every day?
I think if one doesn't play the banjo alot every day speed and accuracy will be tough to attain.
Personally I don't endlessly practice rolls, I just play alot and keep learning new songs, bout 2 hrs. a day minimum.

Terry
"We all need something to believe in, I believe I'll have another beer"

walshb - Posted - 10/29/2009:  15:19:16

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I'm 56 and I almost quit the banjo a few years ago because I was having so much difficulty with speed and accuracy. When I picked it up again recently, I got back everything I had a few years ago, and more, by playing more often, warming up before playing, and practicing forward and reverse rolls.
Try practicing just forward and reverse rolls for a couple of hours sometime, it made a big difference for me! Watch TV or something to keep from getting bored. Muscle memory kicks in after awhile, and that's a great thing.

"I need a louder banjer, my hearing aids just quit on me!"

banjer5 - Posted - 10/29/2009:  15:34:00

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I'm almost 71 and ditto on ignoring speed, worry about smoothness and the speed will take care of itself. If you can find a good metronome or even better a rythum guitar player to pick with it will be very helpful.

Fast Freddy the engineer says: Throttle in RUN 8 and highball, then don't look back, something might be gainin' on ya. 73,s de K5BGZ

darryl k. - Posted - 10/29/2009:  15:38:32

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Speaking of Jens Kruger and speed, how about that bit of goofing off at the end of the Choices cd., at 220 bpm, as close as I can count !! An flawless ! Now there's a target !
Me, I'm happy with 130...when I can achieve it.
I finally gave up on C.H. because the speed just wouldn't come. Much easier with the fingers.
darryl


The road less travelled....5 strings, a stick, a hoop, and a piece of hyde.

J.D. Miner Trio www.jdminer.com

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 10/29/2009:  15:45:58

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The last time I saw Earl Scruggs play, I think he was 82 and he played so fast that the band had trouble keeping up in places - so I'm just saying that there is probably no physical reason that age limits you, if you practice. (And no matter what others tell you on the Hangout, Earl IS a human)!

Cheers,
Laurence

It takes a lot to laugh, but it takes a train to cry

rstieg - Posted - 10/29/2009:  16:39:55

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Mitch, how often do you practice and for how long? Also, how often to you play in jams or otherwise with other people?

Like you, I'm 63. I started 7 years ago, and I've averaged at least an hour a day of practicing and/or playing in jams. I have no problem playing fast and relatively cleanly. I also play in 2 bands and run a jam, so I really don't think it's a function of age.

RICH
Pleasanton, CA

The truth is a moving target... perception is more important than reality... everything is relative...

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Edited by - rstieg on 10/29/2009 16:40:43

pcfive - Posted - 10/29/2009:  16:53:40

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I think it's mostly just a question of practice, as others have said. The fingers have to be trained, and it just takes a lot of repetition. I got a lot faster recently, and my timing got better. I find that keeping the right hand relaxed is critical. I also noticed that the way the picks hit the strings naturally improves with practice, even if I don't think about it consciously. I am not hitting the strings as hard as before, so it takes less time to play each note. It sounds much better also.

I feel that, as a result of all the time I have spent practicing during the past year, my right hand has learned to do these motions automatically. Instead of thinking about moving each finger for each note, I think about the whole pattern and the fingers know what to do. So my hand is relaxed and it can move fast.

I can hardly believe how fast I can play now -- of course it probably is slow compared to others. But much faster than I could just a couple of months ago. Too fast to think about each note -- so your fingers have to learn to play on their own, without being micromanaged by the conscious mind.

(I posted my 2 music files before I could play fast and even. Should try to replace them soon).

pcfive

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 10/29/2009:  17:01:16

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I think Mike M. pretty well hits the nail on the head.. Everytime this question comes up, everybody jumps on the slow slow train.. It just won't happen..
To learn to play at speed, you've got to get it there..! Get out on the track, so to speak.. Now, slow is fine IF you are working on fundamentals, But you must get past that and up to speed, if your really intending to Play.. Too many times today at jams you see players lost and behind on many things and songs that they do have the fundamentals and skills to do.. "I thought I had it and went to the jam and couldn't do nothing, I can't play with you guys"?? HHMMMM?? I don't think that the "age" thing is really a factor.. I learned to play by playing with Earl and Ralph (on records of course!) The only way I had.. And have never had any "speed" problems, I'm facing sixty myself, might not go as long sometimes, But I can still get there when I need to!!
KL

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Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 10/29/2009 17:05:38

Tommy5 - Posted - 10/29/2009:  22:01:51

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Remember to go fast you have to increase speed with both hands, the hand also needs to go fast by holding your fingers close to the fretboard, you can also increase speed by adding hammers and slides and pull offs twice as many notes per right hand finger pick,try to play small sections and licks very fast, then put it all together in a complete tune,make sure to accent the melody notes, you can play the "ghost notes"quietly or even omit them if they are slowing you down simply your arrangements,if you are playing by yourself you don't need to go at breakneck speed, you can only go as fast as your slowest difficult sections so there is the problem of going fast on easy stuff and sounding like an oval record.Tape or record yourself you may be playing faster then you think.

Brian T - Posted - 10/29/2009:  23:05:31

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I can enjoy what I'm doing at 120bpm/2 notes per beat with the Boss DR660 drum machine. Far more realistic than a metronome. Some days, 130, some days even 150 but I fall apart after 8-10 bars. Worth trying. However, I'd like to say that I care about speed but I don't, not anymore. Fix all the damage in my hands first. Then, we can discuss it. Mitch, in the meantime, have a good time.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

mdgodaat - Posted - 10/30/2009:  03:26:12

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Most of the advice given is good therapy. I can particuarly attest to the statement of watching TV or something else whilst picking.

Try to think of something else while practicing your roll patterns. most of the time your BIGGEST HINDRANCE is your mind. You cannot THINK your way into picking faster. Believe it or not it's sometimes difficult to think of something else whilst practicing.

Bluegrass in my blood. Now, if I can only get it to my fingers ?

mdgodaat - Posted - 10/30/2009:  03:55:45

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Try pushing the envelope and I mean really pushing it. The example minstrelmike said about going very slow when trying to learn to ride a bike and falling down is very true to life in my opinion when applied to the banjo.

I'm currently learning Blackberry Blossom. After about 5 days I got it down pretty accurately at 70 bpm or thereabouts. My thing with practicing speeding up is part fear [i think] and not enough practice AT speeding up because I figure if I'm messing it all up [not being accurate, etc.] what's the use ? So after about a minute I go back to going slow again until THAT magic just lands on me and one day I'll be able to whip it off like Earl or whoever. Still waiting for this to happen - NOT !

I have found this out though. REALLY pushing the envelope AND sticking with it for more than a minute does achieve some positive results.

I took Blackberry yesterday at 70 bpm and pushed it to 90 then 108 [not that I was succeeding at 90] but what I found was that the more I played it some of the mistakes started to work themselves out -BUT-[/b] it took about 5-10 minutes for this to happen playing the song at the faster speeds constantly without stopping.

First, if you don't have a way [software] to make "loops" I strongly suggest you find some be it Band in a Box or whatever. There is alot of software available to achieve this. Learning some of it usually takes some time but do it even if you're not that computer savvy.

Repetition is the ESSENTIAL learning tool as we all know. Not stop and restart.

Keep at it at the faster speeds. I think you'll be surprised at the results. Again, try to think about something else whilst playing it and make sure to relax your right hand which is sometimes hard. If you're thinking about trying to MECHANICALLY think and correct your mistakes whilst playing you tense up and your head get's in the way. Might as well try to run through a brick wall. Then discouragement sets in and your back to 70 bpm. It becomes a vicious cycle. Then when you've convinced yourself that you cannot play it any faster [your mind, again] you get set in that rut and don't progress forward to achieve the results you desire.

Granted, roll practice is essential but I've found out that alot of songs are more combining licks with a few fill in or melody notes is what alot of BG music is when playing banjo. It's not all constant and consistent rolls over and over. For a long time I tried to learn consistentcy in rolls throughout a song and try like hell to throw in the melody to no avail. How do they do it I would constantly ask myself and I'll never get that, etc. more negative self-talk. When I started realizing it was more a combination of combining licks back to back and fill in notes I was actually able to PLAY the song be it whatever. A few of the notes were melody, some was fill-in and some was 100 % improvising but it all came out in the wash, was fun to play and improvise more [fart around with different moves, etc.]. it also improved my bag of tricks and accuracy and in turn SPEED.

Bluegrass in my blood. Now, if I can only get it to my fingers ?

lethegoodtimesroll - Posted - 10/30/2009:  05:40:50

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Speed aint important....smoothness and good timing are.

5strbanjo - Posted - 10/30/2009:  08:26:39

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Thanks to all for the good thoughts and practical advice. To answer a few questions, I do practice for AT LEAST an hour a day, often more, and I do use a good metronome...so now I'll just take the good advice received here and get back to it! Thanks, again.

Mitch

pcfive - Posted - 10/30/2009:  08:49:02

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"Speed aint important....smoothness and good timing are."

Speed is important, because the banjo has to play a lot of notes for each note of the melody. So if the banjo isn't fast, the melody will be very slow. That is not always true, but it often is, in the bluegrass style.

But trying to play faster than you can is a mistake, and will sound miserable. Speed is important, but getting it is a slow process.

pcfive

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 10/30/2009:  10:37:37

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Speed is important in many cases. Other times, it is not. When you need speed it won't necessarily come if you don't work at it. Think of a distance jogger versus a sprinter. The sprinter will never achieve his maximum speed by only jogging. It is important, as others have said, to maintain clean picking and keep in time as your speed increases. You can do it but it takes time and practice to get there. I do believe it is easier for younger people to get there than us oldsters, but the journey is fun too.

Mike

"I thought I was dancing, until someone stepped on my hand!"

pcfive - Posted - 10/31/2009:  15:27:34

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"I do believe it is easier for younger people to get there than us oldsters"

That could be true, or it could be just another myth. People used to be sure that women and blacks were less intelligent than white males, but it turned out to be mostly differences in education. In any case, we know now it is unfair to generalize, since women differ more from each other than women in general differ from men. The same for blacks -- we'd get our heads handed to us if we declared in public that blacks are as a whole different from whites, in some respect.

Because it is unfair. Yet myths about age are free to run rampant and nobody gets mad. Except me maybe. We really do not know much about the effects of age, as separated from the effects of poor health and lifestyle.

Yet Americans will stubbornly insist that people get stupider and slower and lose their memory, even at the not so terribly advanced age of 50 or 60. Then all of us are thrown into the same generalization. Oh, he is over 50 we better not hire him because he'll be slow and forget everything.

So I have to keep my age secret and worry than someone might find out. It's unfair, but it's also unscientific. Show me the research that says my memory must be worse now that I am over 50, or that I can't play banjo as fast no matter how much I practice. Then I will believe you. But other than that it's just repeating the cultural myths.




pcfive

Richard Dress - Posted - 10/31/2009:  21:49:59

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You can increase your speed if you reduce the right hand finger motion by transferring some of that motion to your wrist and arm.

caloscalzo - Posted - 11/01/2009:  05:55:05

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Have you had someone actually listen and watch you play. Sometimes a tip from someone might help. Do you have a teacher? A teacher could help you over the humps too.

Craig
________________________________

From the Heart of the Bluegrass

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 11/01/2009:  13:27:39

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From PCfive: 'That could be true, or it could be just another myth...'

I believe it is a scientific/medical fact that people slow down with age, as well as suffer various afflictions- such as arthritis. Therefore, I don't think it is a myth or an unfair generalization. You can always find exceptions to the rule, but they don't disprove the rule. For oldsters that can play as fast as youngsters, I say more power to you and I envy you!

Mike

"I thought I was dancing, until someone stepped on my hand!"

pcfive - Posted - 11/02/2009:  04:55:27

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"it is a scientific/medical fact that people slow down with age, as well as suffer various afflictions"

Whatever we do every day catches up with us eventually. The worse your lifestyle, the more likely the afflictions. And no lifestyle is ever perfect, therefore we will all get afflictions eventually.

However, people in their 50s and 60s have not slowed down very much, if at all, if they are healthy. I do not know if the average banjo player can still be fast in their 70s and 80s. Earl Scruggs might be just as fast now as he ever was.

The confusion results from not separating health from age. Yes, lifestyle catches up with all of us eventually. But I think to very different degrees, depending on how much we work at staying healthy. The average American does very little to stay healthy.

Yes we all know old people in terrible condition, as well as middle aged people. But is age the main reason? Even young people now days can have age-related afflictions because their lifestyle is so unhealthy.

pcfive

wkb28791 - Posted - 11/02/2009:  06:34:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by lethegoodtimesroll

Speed aint important....smoothness and good timing are.

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I'm having the same problem with speed.

I understand what you're saying but you do have to play fast enough to keep up with the other musicians. So speed is important just as timing and smoothness are.

To play with others, you have to have all three.

Regards,
wkb28791



"If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it-----Now quiet! they're about to announce the lottery numbers!"

Homer Simpson