cat2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  12:50:52

---

I decided to sell some straps that I have. I put it in the classifides and this one member wanted to buy 2 of them. I never had any problems with hangout members, either buying or selling anything so when he gave me his address I sent them out. I told him the straps are in the mail and he said he sent the money out the same day. Well I never received the money and when emailing him about it I never get a response. I really don't care about the $38, but I don't want anybody else getting ripped off by him. I want to expose his name so everbody will be aware of him and I think he should be kicked out of the hangout. Any suggestions on what to do? Thanks Bob

---

Edited by - jazzylynne on 10/25/2009 15:51:19

mastertone250 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  12:57:55

---

Tell the name, maybe then he will cough up the dough! I hate getting ripped of myself and i can imagine how you feel

"Surround Yourself With Good Muscians". -J.D Crowe
“Nobody is a legend, we all put our pants on one leg at a time.” - Sonny Osborne

Nosferatu - Posted - 10/25/2009:  12:58:17

---

Before posting his name you should contact a mod and/or Eric.

Exhaust all recourse before posting the fellows name as it may be a simple mistake on the post offices part...Things do get lost in the mail.

Something like this happened a long time ago and the guy who thought he was skunked posted a name and it caused a big stink. The cause for the delay of not answering the emails...the fellow was sick and in the hospital.

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

---

Edited by - Nosferatu on 10/25/2009 13:13:15

Prewar3 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:14:34

---

If they are in fact lost then why doesn't the guy answer the emails. When someone starts ducking your emails you can pretty much figure you got screwed. Jim

Jim Prewar3

Nosferatu - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:16:32

---

Oh, I got a post card yesterday from a friend in TN. that was sent on the 13 of Oct. That's 11 days travle time for that post card when it should have taken 3.

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

beegee - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:18:38

---

Maybe he never got them? Maybe he got hit by a bus and is in traction in a hospital somewhere? Maybe his dog died and he is still mourning? Maybe his National Guard unit was called up to active duty? Maybe he lost his job or his computer crashed? Ya just never know...I agree with Hugh. I'd let the mods or Eric attempt to contact him and attempt to correct the problem.

__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca

Nosferatu - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:20:49

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prewar3

If they are in fact lost then why doesn't the guy answer the emails. When someone starts ducking your emails you can pretty much figure you got screwed. Jim

Jim Prewar3

---

There could be a very legt. reason for not aswering emails...Maybe he's not home, maybe he's sick, maybe his computer is down, maybe he uses the library computer, maybe he didn't like the way the email was worded...Maybe he's dead or someone in the family has died.

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

gary schattl - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:23:22

---

how long has it been?Things happen and jumping to conclusions sometimes leads to embarresment later.I felt the same way when I ordered some dowell sticks from Wyatt Foley,then I found out about his health problem and all those feelings went away.Banjo people are usually pretty up front about things.

Rusty old student :
I learn something new every day

banjobilly32 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:24:20

---

I'd try to search out a phone number and give him a call. There could be many reasons for his actions. Family emergencies, health, floods, fires, who knows? I can't envision any banjo player stiffing someone for $38??

gunnah - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:37:35

---

i would give him the benefit of the doubt for a week or maybe two. If there is no contact by then I would say you no recourse but to out him.

Pepper Laing - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:40:22

---

Keep us posted as to what develops.

www.myspace.com/pepperlaingt...nestarkillers

Nosferatu - Posted - 10/25/2009:  13:47:02

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gunnah

i would give him the benefit of the doubt for a week or maybe two. If there is no contact by then I would say you no recourse but to out him.

---

Have a talk with Eric or a mod before you "out him," even if it's been weeks...They may lock the guys account so his name won't ever need to be posted. Calling someone a thief on BHO is a big deal and if the guy isn't a thief... You could find yourself in court.

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

---

Edited by - Nosferatu on 10/25/2009 14:51:29

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:02:24

---

Hugh's right. The internet legal rule is that the poster, not the forum, is responsible for any libel. Even responding to a lawsuit that you eventually win will cost you because generally each party pays his own costs in the U.S.

Bill

cat2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:22:23

---

It's been over a month and about 5 emails with no response. I do give people the benefit of the dought, but my feeling with this guy is I got ripped off. My emails at first were very nice but as I sent then they became a little harsher. But by no means nasty. I notified Eric and waiting to hear from him.

gugger - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:33:29

---

Within the past few months, a fellow hangout member listed a banjo related item on E-bay and the auction ran it's course and had a high bidder at the end as usual. After a week or so the seller (who is someone most of us are familiar with) had not heard a word from the winning bidder and felt that the guy was simply a "deadbeat bidder" He relisted the item and stated that it was being relisted for that very reason and actually used those words in the relisting. Many of us would tend to feel the same way, however , as it turned out the high bidder actually did die within a day or so of being the high bidder. He found this out when the son of the fellow who died notified him.This seller felt bad about the whole thing and told me so. The lesson that he and I learned is to be a bit patient as things are not always as they first appear. Just my two cents worth.

---

Edited by - gugger on 10/25/2009 14:35:38

gugger - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:40:46

---

I should also note that I know of at least three fellow "Hangout " members that have past away in the last several years.

cat2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:47:24

---

gugger, he said he sent out the money the same day as I sent him the straps. So if he died I would still have received the money. That is why I don't think your theory is correct.

Nosferatu - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:52:11

---

I do hope it get's worked out.

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

cat2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:54:52

---

Just one more thing. He lives about 150 miles from me so it's a little less likely it got lost as if it had to go cross country and he's only 35 yrs old, so he did not die of old age. I just don't want anybody else getting scammed.

gugger - Posted - 10/25/2009:  14:56:12

---

Oop, my bad. I mssed the part where he had said he had mailed it. Sorry about that.

BRIAN MUNDAY - Posted - 10/25/2009:  15:00:39

---

[quote]Originally posted by cat2

It's been over a month and about 5 emails with no response. I do give people the benefit of the dought, but my feeling with this guy is I got ripped off. My emails at first were very nice but as I sent then they became a little harsher. But by no means nasty. I notified Eric and waiting to hear from him.

quote]

I bought and sold quite a few things on the BHO over the years and have had no trouble at all. I also have shipped many items under 100 bucks to buyers after they told me the check is in the mail before I received payment, again with no problems. I always let them know when I get their check and ask them to let me know when they receive their purchase.
It sounds like to me you got ripped off, there always seems to be one sour apple in the bunch, unfortunately he must like free banjo straps.

Good Luck,
Brian

jbanjoist - Posted - 10/25/2009:  16:12:13

---

I know we like to trust folks but it's best to not ship until you get the cash or do some sort of escrow so both will be protected.

Hope it gets worked out.

Jbanjoist
I'm a NECHVILLIAN!

EDUMACATE YOSEF!

You don't know until you KNOW.

Brett - Posted - 10/25/2009:  16:27:07

---

Nearly happened to me for $300, but I was willing to play hardball. Shouldn't have to do that, we should have trust on our cite, but it was my fault for trusting a young kid.

Brisco Darlin' "man can get a lot of tones out of a jug"

cat2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  17:33:41

---

Well I guess for now on I'll wait for the check to clear before sending anything out to any members that I have not done any bussiness with before.

jazzylynne - Posted - 10/25/2009:  17:49:23

---

I have locked the person in question and sent him an email.
Perhaps he will contact one of us so we can find out what happened.

Lynne

MikeM - Posted - 10/25/2009:  19:34:34

---

Bob, try sending him a certified letter. Sure couldn't hurt at this point.

beeliner - Posted - 10/25/2009:  20:25:31

---

Bob, I hope you get it all straightened out. It really hurts to lose confidence in someone.

beeliner- Revis Martin
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works , lest any man should boast. Eph: 2- 8,9 [KJV]

cat2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  21:49:46

---

I do not care about the money. The only reason I posted this is to keep anybody else from getting scammed. He might try to get away with something that's worth some big bucks.

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/26/2009:  07:37:20

---

I've been buying and selling stuff on the internet for 12 years. As a general rule I never send anything out untill I have recieved payment and I've never had anyone complain about it. Now, after I've done business with them a time or two it's a different story. I too have had nothing but good experience with BHO transactions but I leaned the hard way about jumpin the gun, fortunately early on, like in 98 or so, so I haven't made the same mistake twice.

I had sold a guitar on eBay and the winning bidder never responded, for 14 days, and I left him negative feedback (I was a little naive at the time and eBay was new to me). A week later I got a letter in the mail which was a newspaper clipping, dated from the day of the auctions end, from the gentlemans town showing a house fire that not olny claimed his life but his young child's life too the previous evening. His son had sent it and had the decency to let me know. You know the cartoon cliche of the donkey with the big ears when a character makes a fool of himself? I still feel like the worlds biggest arse. True.

I'd follow thru with every exhaustable avenue specificaly the mod's and Eric. They're here to help and don't want anyone here to get scammed any more than any of us do. You could do what any true blooded country boy would do though since he's only 150 miles away. Wait till your brother gits off werk one nite and go down thar and woop his head..WITH the banjo strap...lol j/k

HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

Bayou Talker - Posted - 10/26/2009:  10:44:58

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringypsy

I've been buying and selling stuff on the internet for 12 years. As a general rule I never send anything out untill I have recieved payment and I've never had anyone complain about it.

---

I have done a few deals over the net as both seller and purchaser and have had good luck but I have always wondered one thing. Why is it acceptable to expect the money in advance of shipping but not the other way around? After all, you can get screwed either way. Trust needs to work both ways to be really fair about it.

As for this situation, you can report the purchaser for internet fraud to the authorities. They will check into it and take appropriate action. The website is http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

Cliff Hebert
Bridgeport, AL

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/26/2009:  12:06:08

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bayou Talker

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringypsy

I've been buying and selling stuff on the internet for 12 years. As a general rule I never send anything out untill I have recieved payment and I've never had anyone complain about it.

---

I have done a few deals over the net as both seller and purchaser and have had good luck but I have always wondered one thing. Why is it acceptable to expect the money in advance of shipping but not the other way around? After all, you can get screwed either way. Trust needs to work both ways to be really fair about it.

As for this situation, you can report the purchaser for internet fraud to the authorities. They will check into it and take appropriate action. The website is http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

Cliff Hebert
Bridgeport, AL

---

Sure trust needs to work both ways, but it has to be established somehow initially. In my view and opinion concerning my personal transactions both on the internet and otherwise, I will be scrutinous and cautious when dealing with individuals and protect my own investments by making that requirement. If the person buying does not like that, then maybe they should consider it themselves, that they are seeking what I am offering for sale. They should check me out completely, I’m not defensive to questions about what I have to offer, I will talk to them on the phone, email, provide pictures, just do an all around good job of representing what I have and do everything to make that person comfortable in sending me their money. It’s a big world and if they do not like the way I choose to business, then they can seek it elsewhere at no love loss or worry to me. I’m not in this for “business”. Once the initial ice is broken and you kinda get to “know” the person thru a transaction process, hey… You go from there… Don’t get me wrong. There are a few people on here right now I wouldn’t be afraid to send stuff to WITHOUT them sending me a payment, until they checked it out, etc. .. It all depends on the scenario…
In turn, I do the same in purchasing. Yeah I’ve had folks send me their items, even hangout members here, before I’ve paid or verbally agreeing on the shipping date etc. . To each their own. There are no “rules” but there is etiquite, but it, like everything else is open to interpretation and opinion, and you know what opinions are like.. every ones got one ;) People that take offense to the particular way I do business? If me and that person can’t make a sensible understanding prior to the transaction, or there is any level of distrust from the purchaser (including me if I’m buying from someone) then no business will be done. What is lost?? Look elsewhere. None of us owe the other anything than common courtesy and professionalism, aside of that Nothing. I’ve been burnt being “nice” and have sat around watching allot of folks get taken advantage of over the years. You just have to exercise caution and take it scenario by scenario I guess is all I’m tryin to say. From me anyway.


HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

Nosferatu - Posted - 10/26/2009:  12:25:29

---

Escrow

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/26/2009:  13:19:11

---

now thats wisdom :) among other things lol.. good point..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nosferatu

Escrow

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh


"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula

---

HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

dryman - Posted - 10/26/2009:  14:20:24

---

You can trust 95% of the people in this world but theres always that 5% that make it bad for the rest of us.Like you said whats $38 its the ideal of the deed that gets to you.

jbanjoist - Posted - 10/26/2009:  17:25:39

---

On a side note I really think Ebay should be a total escrow site with no charge to it's members.

It would really add a lot more credibility to the site as well as get rid of the rif raf.

Jbanjoist
I'm a NECHVILLIAN!

EDUMACATE YOSEF!

You don't know until you KNOW.

Michael Keith - Posted - 10/26/2009:  19:00:58

---

I bought my Granada from a hangout member I did not know. I sent him the money western uion and he sent the banjo. I took a chance but he was a fantastic man and sent me a great banjo

BTuno - Posted - 10/26/2009:  19:30:35

---

Hugh is incorrect. When I was ripped off by a BHO member last April, Eric posted that he would not interviene in BHO sales, its up to the seller and buyer to work it out. I emailed, phoned, waited, etc., but never heard a word from the seller, and he was never locked out. I'm very surprised that Lynne locked the account referenced in this thread, but I'm glad it was locked. However, there appears to be some inconsistent application of 'policy here. I ended up outing Steve Thomas as a last resort, just so no one else would get ripped off. Can you tell I'm still pissed?


"Ya gotta get all them tunes in yer head"

TN_Picker - Posted - 10/27/2009:  04:05:03

---

It's amazing how a check or money order always seems to make it to its destination...however, bridges, picks, etc seem to get swallowed up the postal wasteland! There's a good size pile somewhere out there!

“Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I'm being repressed!”

Mike Greylak - Posted - 10/27/2009:  04:20:56

---

that's why it's 44 cents now 4 cents for delivery 40 cents storage fee.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 10/27/2009:  05:56:17

---

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Caveat Emptor: Buyer Beware.

Most people are honest and truthful in their dealings but some aren't. Be sure to check the person out as much as you can before sending money!

Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

Arthur Hatfield - Posted - 10/27/2009:  06:34:11

---

Almost all hangout members are straight as can be and somehow I've dealt with a lot of them. I have sent items without having the money if they needed them quickly and they sent the payment on. I have even shipped a few banjos before the money arrived if they needed them badly for some reason. I have only been beat one time that I can recall and it was about a year ago and cant get him to answer an email or a phone call. We have sent various bills with no response. I'm sure he has caller ID.About a year ago I put a Cox rim and one of my tone rings in a RK 80. The parts cost and labor was about 600.00. The man when it was completed said he had just had a death in the family and just a little later he said his car had broke down and had to get it fixed. The banjo set in my shop boxed up for a couple of months or longer.It was not mine so I could do nothing with it so about Christmas I told Bev that this man had really been having bad luck so I was going to send him his banjo he didnt ask me to but I did. He really thanked me and said he had a large income tax return coming and would send me the money around Valentines day and that day has not come yet.Havent been able to contact him by phone or email. He is in the state of Kentucky. I used to see him post before then on the hangout but have not seen him post since about that time maybe hes afraid I may ask him publicly on the hangout for the money.

Arthur Hatfield
HATFIELD BANJO'S
GLASGOW, KY 42141
(270)646-5219
BANJO WEBSITE WWW.HATFIELDBANJOS.COM
EMAIL HATFIELDBANJOS@SCRTC.COM

MTBanjo - Posted - 10/27/2009:  06:40:43

---

quote:

---

I have done a few deals over the net as both seller and purchaser and have had good luck but I have always wondered one thing. Why is it acceptable to expect the money in advance of shipping but not the other way around? After all, you can get screwed either way. Trust needs to work both ways to be really fair about it.

As for this situation, you can report the purchaser for internet fraud to the authorities. They will check into it and take appropriate action. The website is http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

Cliff Hebert
Bridgeport, AL

---

Best way I've had this explained to me is this: anything you buy over the internet, you pay, then they ship it. Have you gone on to any retail website and had them send you something, and tell you that you can pay once you receive it? I'm sure there are some examples of this, but the vast majority of transactions work this way: you pay, then they ship. That's just the way it is. If you don't trust the person selling a product, don't send them money. It's always a bit scary, but so far I've had good luck.

Zach

Bayou Talker - Posted - 10/27/2009:  10:53:05

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MTBanjo

quote:

---

I have done a few deals over the net as both seller and purchaser and have had good luck but I have always wondered one thing. Why is it acceptable to expect the money in advance of shipping but not the other way around? After all, you can get screwed either way. Trust needs to work both ways to be really fair about it.

As for this situation, you can report the purchaser for internet fraud to the authorities. They will check into it and take appropriate action. The website is http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

Cliff Hebert
Bridgeport, AL

---

Best way I've had this explained to me is this: anything you buy over the internet, you pay, then they ship it. Have you gone on to any retail website and had them send you something, and tell you that you can pay once you receive it? I'm sure there are some examples of this, but the vast majority of transactions work this way: you pay, then they ship. That's just the way it is. If you don't trust the person selling a product, don't send them money. It's always a bit scary, but so far I've had good luck.

Zach

---

I've done deals both ways with good results. Obviously if you don't trust the other person, then don't send them anything. It is a bit different dealing with an established company though. They have a lot to lose if they don't come through and usually have a lot of feedback to rank them by. When it comes to an individual, short of a good reference, all you can do is make a decision to trust them or not. If they are willing to share phone numbers and addresses, which they must provide to be able to ship to them, I will be glad to reciprocate and ship to them at the same time they ship to me. It saves us both time and we get to enjoy our things faster. If I don't feel safe doing it, then I generally won't do the deal.

Just because sending money first and merchandise second is the common way to do things doesn't make it the "right" way. Think about it the next time you are purchasing something from an individual online. How nice would it be to not have to wait two weeks to receive your new toy?

Regardless of how you do it you can still get stuck and if you do, bookmark the link I posted above. It is free and it does work.

Cliff Hebert
Bridgeport, AL

MTBanjo - Posted - 10/27/2009:  11:20:45

---

I suppose you're right. But I guess as the seller, you are in charge, really. If somebody wants to buy what you've got, they've got to give you the money. I hear what you're saying, but I think, when stripped down to its basics...the seller is in charge. You want what they have, so you've got to pay them, and then you get it.

I know, they want what you have too ($), but I think when there is a transaction, the seller is in charge. I could be proven wrong, but that's the way it seems in my mind. If we were trading (goods for goods), I'd say it's a bit more even of a transaction, but for some reason (possibly based on false reasoning but I'm not sure), in my mind, if you are buying something with money, the person with the product is the one that sets the rules.

Of course when you're paying for services...unless they're illegal...typically you pay when the job is done. So I don't know. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about!

Zach

vtyankee5 - Posted - 10/27/2009:  11:58:46

---

A business friend told me once that McDonalds has one of the best business plans in the world.

You pay first then get your food.

Think about it They're always crowded.

Cornflake - Posted - 10/27/2009:  12:57:13

---

We don't know if the particular situation that started this thread was a ripoff, but it got me to thinking about people who steal this way from others. Do they feel just fine playing with a banjo or a strap that they stole? Do they keep acting as if nothing happened and keep posting on sites such as BHO? Is there a conscience involved here? Do they justify the theft by telling themselves they'll pay it off at some date in the future?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I love my excellent sense of humor. Unfortunately it gets me into trouble, and un-funny people think I'm an idiot.

TN_Picker - Posted - 10/27/2009:  13:18:37

---

I've made a lot of deals here and there through the BH, most all deals have came and gone as they should have, uneventful and as promised on both sides. Once a deal is struck between myself and someone else, either as the buyer or seller, that's the handshake and I consider that a done deal in my book. Unless something just blatantly throws up a flag to me they can pass in the mail for all I care, the deal was made. Looking back, I guess I've been very lucky.



“Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I'm being repressed!”

MTBanjo - Posted - 10/27/2009:  14:35:46

---

Cornflake- I do think there are plenty of people out there who have no shame with this sort of stuff. I'm sure some feel bad and stop posting -read A Hatfield's post- but I think the sort of people who would do this thing in the first place don't feel much regret or any moral pangs about it.

Zach

Ribstone - Posted - 10/27/2009:  15:43:11

---

My main business for years was raising Registered Hereford cattle, and we are located close to the Mexican border. During the 80's and 90's we sold 60% + of our bulls into Mexico, and our normal policy was that we had to have the money wired and in our account before we left for the export pens from the ranch with the cattle. We always included health tests, and delivery to the port in our costs, so it was normally not a problem. On occasion, however, we were to meet the buyers at the border with the cattle. We had to drive over to the border between Arizona and Sonora, MX, and they would either give us cash or a cashier's check on a US bank. We've sweated bullets a few times when they didn't have the check, or we had to go to the bank at the brink of closing time on a Friday afternoon, with our only ace-in-the-hole being that we'd not given them the health papers or registrations they had to have until we were certain we had the money. It's pretty hard to retrieve bulls from Mexico, once they've crossed! I called one pompous guy's bluff one day and refused to give him the papers until he'd paid. He threatened all kinds of law suits and blustered around, but I stood my ground, and when he'd paid, he got the papers, and the bulls could cross in to Chihuahua. It was 10 days later! One time I waited for 6 hours at the Gadsden Hotel in Douglas, AZ for a wire transfer to get to our bank in El Paso before I'd take the bulls on to the port. They just sat on the trailer in the hotel parking lot until the money cleared! Selling banjos on the internet is no different. Get your money, then ship. (We still raise Registerd Herefords in New Mexico, if anyone needs some!)

Phil
Osborne Chief #107