RUBY2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  07:30:01

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Hi all

I have started to focus more on my right hand technique now I have been playing a few months.

I am noticing that when I play with my fingers down on the head as I come back over the strings to strum the fourth string my 2nd finger touches the first string.
Is this normal? Or do I need to spread my first finger and thumb holding the pick away from my second finger so it makes more space?
Any help to stop me getting into a bad habit much apreciated.

With thanks

Richard

Axeman79 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  08:23:14

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Richard,

I'm not sure what you mean by "holding" the pick. If you are playing three-finger, you should have three picks attached to the thumb, index, and middle fingers.

As the finger strikes the string (or strums), your small and ring finger should be planted on the head. When picking, the planted fingers should not touch the strings. If they are sliding up and touching the first string, then they are not planted.

I think what may be happening is that your small (pinky) finger is planted and your ring finger is moving around. If you choose to plant only the small finger, you should avoid having the ring finger touch the first string. The problem is that you may strike the first string and then the fourth or fifth and accidentally dampen the sustain on the first with the moving finger.

Axeman

If the minimum wasn't good enough...it wouldn't be the minimum.

rudykizuty - Posted - 10/25/2009:  08:29:09

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Sorry Axeman, but this being the tenor/plectrum section, we are talking 4 string with a single flat pick.

Ruby, no I would not say this is normal. Without actually being seeing what you're doing, I have a few thoughts .....

Don't hold the pick between the pads of your index finger and thumb. This draws the index and middle fingers together. Instead, have your index finger curled underneath so that the pick is being maintained by the thumb pad and side of your index finger.

Concentrating on separation between your index and middle fingers seems too much like an "unrelaxed" approach. At least with my hand, it seems to create tension. Tension = bad. Also, if you are squeezing the pick too hard it will also tend to draw these two fingers together. If you can feel tension in the muscle at the base of your thumb, then the pick is being squeezed too hard. So the morale is to try and keep your hand relaxed at all times. It does not require a lot of pressure to maintain the pick.

Another possibility may be that your return movement (upward motion) is too exaggerated. Or that your strumming motion may have too little wrist motion and too much stiff forearm motion, meaning your elbow is involved. Your elbow should be on the sidelines, not even in the game. Meanwhile, your forearm isn't doing any more than "rolling" over the top of the armrest by way of your wrist motion. Try to maintain a short, flexible stroke with a relaxed wrist doing most of the work.

I hope this helps.

Anthony Herner
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You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny

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Edited by - rudykizuty on 10/25/2009 08:31:40

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  08:30:34

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Sorry Axeman. I should have made it clear that I am playing 4 string tenor banjo not 5 string bluegrass.
Cheers
Richard

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  10:08:01

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Thanks Anthony for putting all that into writing for me.

I am holding the pick between the side of my first finger and my pad of my thumb. I am also keeping my thumb in a relaxed curved shape and not flat and tensed. So I think I am ok with that.

I have to admit that the more I focus on trying to stop catching my second finger on the fourth string, the more I tense up.
I am slightly curving my wrist over but keeping it straight with my forearm. Just moving my forearm slightly. But keeping it planted on the armrest. I don't think I have any movement in the top of my arm.

Does the above narrow down my mistakes any better?

Cheers

Richard

Axeman79 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  10:21:10

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Richard,

You made it clear, I just wasn't paying attention

My brain has been malfunctioning this morning.

Sorry for the interruption and thanks to Anthony for an informative response

Axeman

If the minimum wasn't good enough...it wouldn't be the minimum.

Tom in Silicon Valley - Posted - 10/25/2009:  10:44:09

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Getting off to a good start (habits) can be very important. Correcting bad habits can be difficult and limit your technical abilities on any musical instrument.

If you hold the pick between the tip of the thumb and outside tip of the index finger of the right hand, you are off to a good start. Be sure to gently curl the remaining fingers towards the palm. The wrist should be in a neutral position. Play with the fingers off of the head of the Banjo. The hand should be on the Tailpiece at an angle to allow you to place the pick on the strings without deadening them by contact from the hand.

Two good books on the subject are available: “Enda Scahill’s Banjo Tutor” (five pages of information on holding the pick and right hand position) and from Gerry O’Connor “The Complete Guide to Learning the Irish Tenor Banjo” (1 page of information concerning holding the pick). The first book suggested has many great basic concepts to help you learn how to play the Irish Tenor Banjo.

rudykizuty - Posted - 10/25/2009:  12:10:09

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Axe, likewise....thank you. I find 3 finger style intriguing. Not sure I personally could do it.

Rich, it is difficult for me to come up with any more without actually seeing you play. Are there any instructors in your area that you can take lessons with?

Anthony Herner
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You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny

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Edited by - rudykizuty on 10/25/2009 12:11:30

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/25/2009:  12:24:21

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Hi Anthony

Thanks for what you have said so far. I can understand you can't do too much without seeing what I am doing.

Well as tutors go there is Tom Napper in Leeds where I live although he teaches Irish tenor he is capable and happy to teach me jazz tenor. I have already phonned him and had a chat and he seems a very nice helpful guy.

Also I have e-mailed Sean Moyses after buying his DVD and cds and he can do lessons through the computer with webcams etc.

Also Maria 'top cat ' has been very helpful and given me details of a tutor. But I am not too sure if he just teaches 5 string.

So I do have some things to look into there. I have to admit that due to my panic attacks I have put lessons to the back of my mind. Thinking they are just a bit beyond me at the moment.

But I don't want to form a bad habit that is harder to undo the more I instill it in my practice, so I may have to bite the bullet and get my bum in gear and book a lesson or three.

Cheers Richard

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/26/2009:  01:56:24

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Richard,

Most highly skilled and/or professional players do not follow basic rules - f.ex. regarding how to hold a pick.

Try watching some of them at YouTube, f.ex. youtube.com/group/JazzBanjo#p/..._utd2QEZw - youtube.com/group/JazzBanjo#p/...xBF4Fh2w8 -
youtube.com/group/JazzBanjo#p/...TbuTmnJ34 -
these pro-players are all using individual pick grips.

Maybe you´re a pro-to-be and should consider your own personal pick grip(s) - LOL!

The tips are the most sensitive parts of your fingers – by using non-flexible picks as most pro´s do it´s important feeling and controlling the pick by using really sensitive parts of the fingers – this often means as near as possible to the tips.

I myself use 5 different grips and do constantly shift between them depending on the actual playing styles within a tune.

Grip 1 – Buddy Wachter Style
Index strongly bend – pick held with the flat side of the thumbs first part and the side of the index fingers second part.

Grip 2 – Eddy Peabody Style
Index slightly bend – pick held with the flat side of the thumbs first part near the tip and the side of the index fingers first part.

Grip 3 – Cynthia Sayer Style
Pick held with thump and index finger tips.

Grip 4 – Polle Flaunoe Favorite #1
Pick held with thumb and index finger tips plus supported at the edge by the side of the second fingers first part.

Grip 5 – Polle Flaunoe Favorite #2
Pick held with the tips of both thumb, index and second finger.

Try study and test these grips - maybe you´ll find one of them the most comfortable for you.

Kindly regards

Polle

PS!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/26/2009:  02:05:12

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Richard,

PPS!
I forgot the PS! in my first posting - LOL!

I wanted to ask you - do you have a web-cam and the Skype program?

If so - it would be possible for me to show you the mentioned grips etc. live!

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/26/2009:  11:14:12

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Hi Polle
Many thanks for putting all that info into writing for me.
I will have a look into the clips and see if I can get my head around the grip and strums.
I would be great if you could help me to sort out my problems live. Thanks ever so much for that.
I will het skype installed and get back to you. It might have to be Wednesday though if that is ok. I have a meeting tonight and am going to my mums for tea tomorrow night.
I will let you know when I am all set
Many thanks again.
Richard

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/27/2009:  00:51:42

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Richard,

Do test/practice the grips and your strumming for some time first.

BTW - do notice from the YouTube videos, what these players are doing with their remaining fingers. Try copying them somehow in order solving your little problem.

After some rehearsals - good or/and bad - try contact me again. A Skype session will be best during a weekend - we´ll need the daylight.

If you have a web-cam as I - it will be possible for me detecting and correcting any of your small failors. I´ve never been teaching via the internet - but I know, that it´s very common in US. The only difference will be, that I´ll do it for free - LOL!

Kindly regards

Polle

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/27/2009:  08:21:37

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Hi Polle
Thanks for that.
Thanks for the willingness to do a lesson on line.
I could be sending you down a slippery slope here with these lessons. You could have everyone and their dog after you for lessons.
It's such a shame I can't buy you a beer over the Internet to say thanks.
Maybe we can sort out a time for a lesson this weekend?
If so I will try to get the skype thing sorted. I do have an inbuilt web cam on the laptop so I think we are ok there.
Let me know when is best for you and I will try to make sure I am all ready to go.
Cheers
Richard

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/27/2009:  08:46:44

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Richard,

Please mail me your Skype-address offline, as soon as you´ve established it.

I´ll then try calling you during the coming weekend. I can´t tell you an exact time, as my lousy, disabled body (not my mind) rules here. But around noon, I think - saturday or sunday.

At first hand I´ll like you showing me your present pick grip plus problem(s) - maybe we can work out a solution at once - maybe I can show you some alternatives - let´s start from scratch. I find this "new" communication way very interesting.

Others

Are any of you maybe interested in tete-á-tete consultances - f.ex. regarding pick grip techniques?

I´ll maybe try recording a video - using my web-cam - showing the different grips as earlier mentioned - and publish this as an YouTube-video.

Feel free contacting me offline pr. E-mail - or do try the modern way - Skype! My Skype-address is polle.flaunoe. Till now I´ve only used this for a personal contact with my daughter and her family living in London.

Kindly regards

Polle

yellowdog - Posted - 10/28/2009:  10:48:43

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Richard, a simple fix for the second finger touching the strings which I use on occasion is to put the meaty bottom of the last joint of your second finger on top of the fingernail of your index finger. I do this when I'm tired and my second finger falls and touches a string. This position, which you can go into immediately whenever needed, doesn't interfere with picking and has the added benefit of giving the index finger not only a bit of rest but reinforcement from the rear to drive the pick for extra volume. I've found it especially useful playing mandolin. It also doesn't interfere with your little finger touching the head if that is your style.

Frank Geiger
frank.geiger@yahoo.com
geigeracousticdevices.com

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Edited by - yellowdog on 10/28/2009 10:50:09

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/28/2009:  12:30:32

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Thanks for that Frank

I can see what you are saying putting the second finger up against the first finger and thumb and the pick.
I will have a look at this.
I am unsure if my problem is more of a compex problem.
Maybe it is down to position of something else like forearm on the armrest, the position of where I strum the strings, my wrist or hand position, angle of holding the banjo etc etc.

I am very lucky in having Polle give me some instruction over the web cam so hope to get this resolved at the weekend.

So we will see what problem/problems I have to get over.
Still it's a learning curve.
Thanks for the help.
Cheers Richard

mikeyes - Posted - 10/28/2009:  13:15:45

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Richard,

Look here (mandolincafe.com/forum/group.p...ssage9902) and it will lead to a video I took last weekend of Enda Scahill's right hand. It might give you some ideas about relaxation.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

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Edited by - mikeyes on 10/28/2009 13:19:12

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/30/2009:  00:56:21

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Mike,

Thanks for showing us these videos - fantastic banjo playing - especially the Colonel Fraser did bring out a big smile on my face this morning - LOL!

BTW - the video quality is indeed very high - wich format are you using for the recordings - and wich for the upload at YouTube?

The sound is also very fine when I use the small built-in speakers in my lap-top - however when I use my studio equipment for an amplification, a very poor bass/midrange sound gets prominent. Do you know why?

Kindly regards

Polle

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/30/2009:  01:47:51

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Hi Mike

Thanks very much for posting that video for me.

I have noticed that he keeps his forearm very still on the armrest and just moves his wrist to get to the different strings.

I have been keeping my wrist fixed and moving my forearm to get to the different strings.

I did get this technique from the Buddy Wachter dvd.

I also notice on this clip that he has his second finger bent up out of the way and just keeps his third and fourth finger on the head. Is the second finger resting on the back of the pick?

Thanks very much for that. It is a great recording showing his right hand position very well.

Hopefully I will get some more great tips and help off Polle this weekend.

Cheers

Richard

Banjoed - Posted - 10/30/2009:  05:15:41

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Hi Richard,

Just to clarify the right hand, yes the 2nd finger is curled LOOSELY up out of the way but importantly the 3rd and 4th fingers only ever graze the head and are NEVER pressed onto the head for support.

The fixed wrist that Buddy Wachter recommends is fine for tenor banjo music chord playing but for the finer aspects of Irish banjo playing and producing fast, accurate trebles then the wrist must be completely relaxed and the forearm and elbow relaxed but stationary in a supporting role only.

Enda

endascahill.com
webanjo3.com

RUBY2 - Posted - 10/30/2009:  08:52:18

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Thanks very much for explaining your style Enda.

I do play/am learning jazz and not Irish music so I am not sure then how much I should follow this style?
Maybe I should put more effort into the Buddy Wachter syle. I know Polle is trying to help me over the weekend so maybe I will get my technique and problems sorted out. Or at least have an idea on what I should be working on.

I can't get over this Forum.


It boggles my mind that there are so many nice helpful and not to forget talented people on this site who are willing to put so much time and effort into helping others.

The only thing I can compare it to, is being interested in golf and having Tiger Woods bend over backwards to help you out.

I am so glad I decided to choose the banjo as my new hobby, not just for the instrument but for all the friends I have made over the last few months on this site.

I have had and do still have a few hobbies that I use forums for help, but none come close to this one.
The ones I have used in the past in perticular to Motorcycle and Car sites have been a real let down. Some answers to posts have even been nothing but rude.

So Just a BIG thank you to ALL for your help.

Cheers

Richard

chrisblack - Posted - 10/30/2009:  13:36:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe


Others

Are any of you maybe interested in tete-á-tete consultances - f.ex. regarding pick grip techniques?

I´ll maybe try recording a video - using my web-cam - showing the different grips as earlier mentioned - and publish this as an YouTube-video.

Feel free contacting me offline pr. E-mail - or do try the modern way - Skype! My Skype-address is polle.flaunoe. Till now I´ve only used this for a personal contact with my daughter and her family living in London.

Kindly regards

Polle

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I'd be interested in some vids of pick holding techniques - i'm relatively happy with mine - but am always prepared to try some variations, if it helps improve technique - I'm a thumb/side of index finger type myself,

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/31/2009:  06:37:54

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Hi all!

Does any of you have some experiences with lessons etc. via Skype/webcam?

My present set-up is very fine for ordinairy video-chats with friends and family - but the quality is not good enough for lessons. There is to much "flickering" - fast movements can´t be shown.

I´ve searched the internet for advices today - it seems, that I - beside minimum my present fast internet connection (10/1) - will need a dual-core computer, a HD webcam and the latest versions of the programs - in order to obtain a flicker-free video-transmission.

Further more - my "students" will need the same!

Please tell me and others about any of your experiences regarding this.

Kindly regards

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/01/2009:  07:51:47

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Today Richard and I had an one hour session via Skype/webcam - it was really great fun for both of us - in spite of the technical limitations of the "broadcasting". This was the first time for both him and me.

All fast movements of both left and right did totally freeze - the sound however was very fine.

And I think, that Richard got a bunch of good practicing tips plus advices regarding both left and right hand grips/techniques.

Good luck Richard with your further efforts - we´ll meet again soon.

Next week I´ll seek some advices from experts for possible up-grades of my equipment and programs in order obtaining a non-freezing/flicker-free Skype transmission plus video-recordings of some of my tips and tricks.

I´ll go for a video quality like on Mike´s recordings of Enda plus a somehow Hi-Fi quality sound. If possible - LOL!

I´ll then get back to you - maybe via YouTube clips.

This is great fun for me - I myself do also learn a lot.

Kindly regards

Polle

PS!
This morning I realized, that I in fact often am using a pick Grip #6 also - I hold the pick with the tips of my thumb and my second finger only - keeping the rest of the fingerds straight/non-bended. I use this mostly for rhythm playing in slow ballads, blues etc.

PPS!
When descriebing or teaching stuff like pick holding or left hand chord settings I have a major problem - over here in this "metric" country we count our fingers starting with the thumb as #1 - the index finger as #2 - and so on. LOL!