chrisblack - Posted - 10/22/2009:  14:27:35

I'm trying to improve my technique on picking jigs and there's loads of differing advice out there...

The "easy method" is DUD UDU....Mike on Banjosessions this month is advocating DUD DUD... wheras in Enda's book, he advocates that the first note of the bar should be D.

I sit for hours trying to get the DUD DUD going, and am fine when only playing it on a single string... when it comes to cross picking i get all confused and couldn't really tell you what i play, it's all fairly random...

Any suggestions on practice technique for cross picking (and where there are only sat 2 notes in a bar.. is that DU or DD?????)...

And then of course there's triplets to be thrown into the equation....... which I can quite often manage okay, but where does the DUD DUD fit in there????.... but maybe that'll be a separate discussion..

I really want to get my jigs more "rhythmic"..

Thanks in advance

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

Edited by - chrisblack on 10/22/2009 14:30:12

diarmaid - Posted - 10/22/2009:  14:43:06

Hi Chris...good question...one thats puzzled me too!...ask big Sean Wholihan if you ever run into him round Bantry Bay...he was the best banjo teacher i ever had!

fergaloh - Posted - 10/23/2009:  05:55:26

I think DUD DUD is the best way to play jigs properly as you can accent the first beat and get a real bounce going. Where there are only two notes in a bar sometimes DD works best and sometimes DU works best but that will come naturally when you get used to DUD DUD. DUD DUD is a good base for playing jigs but there are always awkward tunes that you will stray momentarily from it. What i do to teach people is get them to play the scales in an ascending pattern say in the key of G, go (GAB), (ABC), (BCD), (CDE), (DEF#), (EF#G), (F#GA) (GG)) and decending going GF#E, F#ED etc and do a similar pattern on all scales till there really not thinking about it. Each group of three notes representing a DUD. Works well

youtube.com/fergohanlon

Edited by - fergaloh on 10/23/2009 06:01:01

chrisblack - Posted - 10/25/2009:  17:03:56

Thanks Fergal

I'll keep persevering, as I'm sure it will come to me eventually... i ilke the idea of practicing dud dud on scales

chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

PD Shamrock - Posted - 10/26/2009:  12:30:05

Sorry Fergal but i disagree. The DUD DUD sound is a bit predictable and limits the way you articulate the phrases because you feel you have to go DUD whereas your ear is telling you otherwise. I feel the same about triplets too. If your pick happens to be coming up when you want to start a triplet then hit the string and start the triplet on the up stroke. Its only weaker if you fail to put a bit more umph into it to compensate for not going downwards

Nigel

fergaloh - Posted - 10/26/2009:  15:58:38

Look closely at these
youtube.com/watch?v=PLfFzLVhuKc
youtube.com/watch?v=b_Ih2exOFNI
youtube.com/watch?v=2c0U6nncZu...e=related

and although its not clear to see it sounds like DUD DUD youtube.com/watch?v=J7Cr8U69ac...laynext=1 if its not, fair play to him

Anyway if these guy's are at it, it's for a reason

Edited by - fergaloh on 10/26/2009 16:05:13

mikeyes - Posted - 10/26/2009:  16:36:34

Chris,

I just finished a workshop with Enda Scahill and his take on the two notes in a bar with a jig (I assume two dotted quarter notes) was that you had a choice of Down-treble or treble-down with each dotted quarter note and that each note started with a down stroke. He said that a quarter note-eighth note form (instead of three eighth notes) was also D-D as if you were playing DUD but skipping the U and letting the quarter note ring.

As for starting the triplet on an upstroke, he didn't do it but saw nothing to prevent doing so if that is what is the easiest way to make the triplet.

The idea of DUD DUD is to establish a technical base from which to work in jigs. This doesn't mean that you have to slavishly use that pattern, but by establishing an initial pattern as you learn technique, you can then vary the approach with confidence later on as you develop your style. Jigs played in alternate picking can have a lyrical sound or they can be very edgy if done right. Either way they add to the complexity of your playing. But if you don't have good basic technique, you will have problems when you want to switch back and forth.

The same is true with the left hand. Establish a technical base using either three or four finger style, and then as you develop your personal sound and as you become more adept, you can switch back and forth as needed.

On the other hand, if you never establish a technical base, you won't be able to progress in your playing.

One of the important teaching points in his three day workshop was establishing a good right hand. Virtually every player in the room was using a right hand style that was not allowing them to relax or was going to be a dead end in the near future because it limited what each student could do. In contrast Enda's hand was ergonomically aligned with the banjo, was very relaxed, and extremely efficient. He used a "natural grip" which was very loose even in the most rapid and spectacular passages of which there were many during the course of the workshop.

I have videos of all this which I will eventually show (I have hours to edit) and once you see what he does, it is hard to nay say his advice. The same information was given to me by Gerry O'Connor, Andy Statman, and Roland White at different workshops.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

chrisblack - Posted - 10/27/2009:  04:29:33

Thanks Mike

I look forward to seeing some of the video footage - I'm not sure if it will be possible, but a slow motion video of a right hand picking jigs may be beneficial???

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

mikeyes - Posted - 10/27/2009:  08:13:19

A taste of the class is at mandolincafe in the tenor banjo section: mandolincafe.com/forum/group.p...ssage9902 and I will publish a jig set from Enda Scahill at the O'Flaherty Irish Retreat (in Midlothian, TX) this year in a little while.

UPDATE: There are a set of jigs on the same mandolincafe thread now. You can judge for yourself how successful DUD DUD is when played at that level of musicianship.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

Edited by - mikeyes on 10/27/2009 08:39:25

chrisblack - Posted - 10/27/2009:  09:06:30

Okay... to see if this can sink in further to my brain...

lets take the first couple of bars of the blackthorn stick...

I'd play

d gfg ege dBG AGE DGG FGA BAB A

as D DUD UDU UDU DUD UDU DUD DUD A....

How would you pick it???

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

mikeyes - Posted - 10/27/2009:  09:22:23

D| DUD DUD| DUD DUD | DUD DUD | DUD D-D | etc. You can vary the way you play by using triplets and trebles or chording as variation.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

PD Shamrock - Posted - 10/27/2009:  11:31:39

Im afraid i will never change my approach to pick direction. Simply put, if the pick is going up i hit the string and if the pick is going down i hit the string. To me it allows for a more melodic sound from the banjo rather than a mechanical sounding rigid sytem of having to hit a string in a certain direction because DUD says you have to. I also feel that by sticking to DUD limits your potential for sounding individual. Can anybody tell by listening to a banjo recording which direction the pick is traveling/ If not then im not sure there is much mileage in it.

Nigel

fergaloh - Posted - 10/27/2009:  11:51:32

You can generally tell if someone is using dud dud by listening

youtube.com/fergohanlon

fergaloh - Posted - 10/27/2009:  12:07:42

Mike that close up clip of Enda is class. Genius playing absolute mastery.

youtube.com/fergohanlon

chrisblack - Posted - 10/27/2009:  12:55:34

okay...

so i've put up a vid here on youtube... youtube.com/watch?v=JK0TtssZv8A

Anyone (Mike, Fergal) got any tips on my picking technique... I seem to end up throwing in a load of triplets when I try to get DUD DUD.

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

mikeyes - Posted - 10/27/2009:  12:57:56

Fergal,

I will be putting up more videos as I edit them (a loose definition of the word.) He, along with Gerry O'Connor, Mick Moloney, John Carter and several others all recommend learning to play DUD DUD. I have found that it has helped my playing quite a bit but it does take a lot of time to get it right. Once there, the possibilities for variations are endless and you can do a lot of things that you can't do with alternative picking including adding alternative picking as another variation.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

PD Shamrock - Posted - 10/27/2009:  14:43:00

likewise if you alternate pick then you can add DUD DUD as a variation too. Go with your heart Chris and what feels right to you. There are no set rules. I know banjo players who are great players but when you ask them how they do x, y and z they havent a clue, they simply play the music without scientificaly analyzing every stroke.
BTW Mike,im not trying to be argumentative but could you give any examples of variations that only work for DUD DUD please.
Nigel

Edited by - PD Shamrock on 10/27/2009 14:45:57

mikeyes - Posted - 10/27/2009:  16:49:38

Nigel,

Look at Enda's jig set at youtube.com/watch?v=6-LKgbcPOkc he is playing DUD DUD the entire time but has triplets, note changes, chordal and dynamic variations. He taught these to us in our class last weekend and showed a large number of variations. He stated that he does use DUD UDU at times but only for variation as he thinks that it is very hard to keep the jig feel going with just alternate picking. He pointed out that a few players can do it successfully but they are usually very good players.

As for the analysis of every stroke, granted a lot of players don't do so, but the ones that I have seen and video taped (the names above) have all used DUD DUD and I have the tapes to demonstrate it.

I mention in my article that you can play jigs with alternate picking but that I had an epiphany that switched me over to DUD DUD. I think that there are good guidelines for playing jigs but, as you point out, you don't have to follow them. But the overwhelming consensus of those musicians that have taught me is DUD DUD. It is starting to work for me after a lot of hard work developing my right hand.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

mikeyes - Posted - 10/27/2009:  16:55:24

Chris,

There is nothing wrong with your jig and you have a lot of talent. I can tell you what Enda Scahill would say: you are not relaxed enough and you should develop DUD DUD. Of course that is what he told all of us (me included) at the workshop I just went to. It is not easy to develop a great right hand. Yours is very good already and I suspect that no matter what you end up doing, you will do fine. As Nigel points out you can play in a lot of ways and still get a good result.

What I would do is ask Enda to look at your video - he is very accessible - and if you are in the Galway City area anytime see if you can get a lesson from him. You will have to ask ahead of time as he is booked. Another source might be Tom Cussen. Also, find a teacher!

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

chrisblack - Posted - 10/28/2009:  12:12:19

Thanks Mike

I'm not fishing for compliments - I get very critical of my playing every now and then, and as I don't come across many banjo players down here in West Cork, it's useful to get some constructive feedback from somewhere... I'm completely self taught and hadn't even heard of DUD DUD when I started 15+ years ago... so it's a challenge trying to relearn, but I'm sure it will be worth it, listening to some of the vids that you and Fergal have posted.

I'll bear in mind Endas comment about relaxation - any tips he gave on how to relax, either the wrist or the body/breathing would be welcomed... although I do find a few pints of Guinness (or Murphys down here) helps!!!

Chris


"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

mikeyes - Posted - 10/28/2009:  13:11:02

Enda did say that you should observe your breathing as you try difficult passages. Odds on that you are holding your breath. He recommends taking a deep breath and slowly letting it out as you play the passage. "And keep breathing" as he says.

Look at his hand position in the "relaxed hand" video I have up. Also I have put up several more videos of his playing which all have good access to his right hand.

Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

diarmaid - Posted - 10/28/2009:  17:47:03

great recordings Mike, theres some Angelina Carberry and Martin Quinn clips here bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00njkz9#clips

Chris youre doing grand, i would recommend a wee/big glass of powers or bushmills to help relax too (the more the merrier!). i find when im playing my best, my wrist is relaxed and loose and im not consciously thinking about what im playing or what ornamentation im about to put where, and slow breathing definitely helps a lot.

diarmaid - Posted - 10/28/2009:  17:48:54

Fergal i'll have to have a go tryin your scales exercises, i havnt had a decent practice on the banjo in weeks!

chrisblack - Posted - 10/29/2009:  03:00:48

Thanks Dairmiud - I can't get the BBC iPlayer working - do you need an IP address in the UK to watch it??

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

diarmaid - Posted - 10/29/2009:  08:14:09

Hi Chris, im not sure, it'll make its way onto youtube eventually i guess, heres another gem from the last series youtube.com/watch?v=sBUSHUuRcm8 Damien O'Kane this youtube channel is worth checking, as she has all of series one and 2 uploaded as well as the first episode of series 3, i reckon she'll upload the lot, though theres always a few extra performances by each artist on the webiste

youtube.com/watch?v=RkhOAt1xJe...e=related
it'll be on tonight at 10pm on bbc2 northern ireland, it should be possible to pick that up on tv there either analogue or digital.

theres info on getting the iplayer working abroad here, though i think it costs something to get it working properly britishexpats.com/forum/showth...?t=507202 im sure there must be a way

Edited by - diarmaid on 10/29/2009 08:16:34

chrisblack - Posted - 10/30/2009:  12:05:43

3 days into the DUD DUD practice and thanks to you guys above for the tips/encouragement, I feel I'm making progress... it really has been back to basics and I feel like I'm re-learning the instrument, but it's coming together..

If anyone else is following this and looking to improve their picking technique - stick with it...

I'm playing basic jigs that I know VERY SLOWLY, i'm repeating DUD DUD in my head for every note and have even taken some tune books and written the DUD above each bar/phrase.... Cross picking is still a difficulty, but improving

I'm sure it will stick in the subconcious eventually.

Cheers

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

fergaloh - Posted - 10/31/2009:  05:55:17

You already play jigs brilliantly goin from the clips but you won't know yerself when ya get the dud goin.

youtube.com/fergohanlon

chrisblack - Posted - 11/02/2009:  14:48:25

Another question on DUD....

Do you try to hit the first D in the 3 harder to emphasise the note i.e. Dud Dud - or do you play them all with a constant stroke???

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

mikeyes - Posted - 11/02/2009:  17:12:59

Chris,

You will find that you will naturally hit the D stroke harder than the U stroke. That is why DUD DUD is recommended for jigs. It takes a lot of work to make DUD UDU sound the same because it is not as natural to emphasize the U stroke all the time.

Jigs make you hit that first and fourth note a little harder anyway :grin:



Mike Keyes
banjosessions.com
mikekeyes.com

chrisblack - Posted - 11/03/2009:  09:15:18

yeehaa...... almost flying it now... is it acceptable to miss the occasional DUD when cross-picking - e.g. going up the strings DBe = DDD???

I'll keep on practicing...

Chris

"There's always one listening" - Gerry O'Gorman, Bacup (RIP)

fergaloh - Posted - 11/03/2009:  10:33:48

Its very acceptable. You'll hear or feel if it isn't in keeping with the tune

youtube.com/fergohanlon