Joe Spann - Posted - 10/22/2009:  05:35:42

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Changing the neck in a Gibson banjo is a commonplace procedure today. But how long has this been going on? The pre-World War II Gibson shipping ledgers can give us some real insight into this modification and perhaps into human nature.

The following statements are taken directly from the ledgers and specifically from the repair department entries, which in the original are noted in red ink.

Some commonplace entries...
Shipped March 26, 1935 “MB made into TB-1"
Shipped May 13, 1935 “PT made into TB-6 with mute”
Shipped June 19, 1935 “TB-3 made into PB-3"
Shipped June 19, 1935 “MB-3 made into TB-3"
Shipped July 19, 1935 “PB-3 made into TB-3"

Then, an interesting modification that perhaps raises some questions....
Shipped July 19, 1935 “TB-G, installed TB neck, 19 inch scale TB-G neck returned”

Evidently the PT scale length was unpopular...(see May 13th entry above).
Shipped September 10, 1935 “PT made into PB-6"

Because no known example of an original catalog description RB-5 exists today the following is a discouraging entry. The specific banjo in question here is a known instrument but when found was configured as a TB-5.
Shipped June 19, 1936 “RB-5 repair"

Shipped January 22, 1937 “TB-2 made into PB-2"

Another PT bites the dust....
Shipped May 31, 1938 “PT made into TB-6"

And lest the guitar players be excluded.....
Shipped July 29, 1935 “TG-5 made into L-5"

Each of these entries shows us that Gibson was quite willing to change the necks in their banjos (and guitars) and did so regularly. The neck in your pre-World War II Gibson may not be the original after all!

rupickin5 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  06:18:12

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Fascinating, as always Joe! Thanks for sharing...oh that poor RB-5

justryin2play - Posted - 10/22/2009:  06:45:05

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Excellent, again Joe.

Wonder how this affects instruments thought to be an all original TB-3 but was originally put together as say an MB-3 ?

Probably not much since some were an in factory change before shipping, but does raise some interesting combination's due to slow sales.

This could shake up some banjophiles listings if they included FON along with those modified-repaired instruments.

Very interesting........

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  07:11:31

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Great info, Joe.

And some intriquing questions are...

1. Were these ONLY internal "production re-bulids" -- taking an instrument from stock,
and re-configuring it, to fill a new order? (i.e. Where they cannibalizing "OLD-stock" to
create NEW-stock"?)

2. Or, Were there ALSO "returns" or "custom repairs" -- which were sent back,
FROM customers, to have the work done?

3. Did they ALWAYS replace the prior necks with brand new "production" necks?
(Which causes one set of anachronistic identification problems...)

2. Or, Did they ALSO "recycle" any "used" necks -- left from a previous "made into"?
(Which could really mess-up chronological identification...)


But... I'm not really surprised by any of it.

Most production was quite "modular" by then -- to allow more rapid configuration
of models, from "standardized" parts. And there is always some re-configuration
which takes place, internally, to fill certain orders.

I've also heard LOTS of stories, about instruments which were sent "back to the factory"
for customization, refurbishing, and reconfiguration.

But this is good hard evidence that it WAS done.

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

Joe Spann - Posted - 10/22/2009:  07:40:21

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Great questions Ed. This is a great example of why it is so important to share information and talk about the interpretation.

Your questions....my answers.

1. Were these ONLY internal "production re-builds" -- taking an instrument from stock, and re-configuring it, to fill a new order? (i.e. Where they cannibalizing "OLD-stock" to create NEW-stock"?)

All of the examples I gave in the posting are originally written in red, thus indicating repairs. I hadn't thought of any of them as "modification of old stock for new orders." I suppose it's possible....given the assumption that the repair department would have carried out modifications of NOS (new old stock) instruments.

2. Or, Were there ALSO "returns" or "custom repairs" -- which were sent back,
FROM customers, to have the work done?

This is situation I am thinking that the ledger entries infer.

3. Did they ALWAYS replace the prior necks with brand new "production" necks?
(Which causes one set of anachronistic identification problems...)

I THINK the answer to this question is yes. My reason for saying so is a PB-3 that recently turned up with FON # 66-2 in the rim and a much later FON on the back of the peghead. Of course, I'm sure the production line people cringed everytime somebody from the repair department showed up to "appropriate" a neck in progress....leaving a pot in production without a matching neck.

2. Or, Did they ALSO "recycle" any "used" necks -- left from a previous "made into"?
(Which could really mess-up chronological identification...)

The answer to this question is absolutely yes. Gibson definitely re-used old parts taken from repaired instruments and scavenged parts from NOS. I have an eyewitness account from the son of the man who led the Gibson repair department for years in the pre-World War II period. The son later worked at Gibson himself from 1938-1940. There is no longer any question about that particular issue.

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Edited by - Joe Spann on 10/22/2009 07:41:26

Julio B - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:34:00

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So, Joe (and others), allow me this seemingly simple-minded question. If one buys an old PB3, and converts it into a five string, is he, per Gibson's apparent custom, then allowed to sell it as an RB3 without ever mentioning the conversion? Is it ethical?
~Julio





[quote]Originally posted by Joe Spann

Changing the neck in a Gibson banjo is a commonplace procedure today.

BTuno - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:37:24

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There are also known examples of the rims being factory modified, e.g. making a flathead rim from an archtop rim. My Granada #8208 was modified from a ballbearing rim to an archtop. So, I'm wondering if your ledgers show any such modifications as well as the neck mods? How common was rim modification?

Finally, just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed your posts, Joe. This is milestone stuff, and is radically changing our ideas about these instruments. I encourage you to continue working on this valuable information, I'm in line for that book!



"Ya gotta get all them tunes in yer head"

BvilleDon - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:41:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by Julio B

So, Joe (and others), allow me this seemingly simple-minded question. If one buys an old PB3, and converts it into a five string, is he, per Gibson's apparent custom, then allowed to sell it as an RB3 without ever mentioning the conversion? Is it ethical?
~Julio





[quote]Originally posted by Joe Spann

Changing the neck in a Gibson banjo is a commonplace procedure today.

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I don't think it is ethical. It is similar to the tactics Jim Mills describes in his book about folks buying all prewar parts and selling them as "floorsweep" prewars. When actually the "floorsweeps" were made by Gibson when they were running low on parts due to the war and building banjos from the stock they had on hand. I think to call a conversion an original RB will not fly and is a misrepresentation that involves the rarity of prewar RB flatheads.

Don

Joe Spann - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:20:11

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[quote]Originally posted by Julio BIf one buys an old PB3, and converts it into a five string, is he, per Gibson's apparent custom, then allowed to sell it as an RB3 without ever mentioning the conversion? ~Julio [quote]

In my opinion any and all repairs or changes made to any vintage collectable (furniture, jewelry, cars, musical instruments, etc.) should be disclosed to the buyer by the seller.

Pepper Laing - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:20:22

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Ok I find this stuff very interesting and I`m learning and trying to learn alot as I wanna be as informed as possible and one day be a expert. But what does FON mean again?

www.myspace.com/pepperlaingt...nestarkillers

Joe Spann - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:22:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by BTunoSo, I'm wondering if your ledgers show any such modifications as well as the neck mods? How common was rim modification?

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No rim modifications noted in the shipping ledgers yet.

impickin5 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:43:15

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FON=Factory Order Number.

banjobilly32 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:51:17

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While I was living near Rochester NY some 45 years ago I acquired a PT 3 which was in mint condition. I tried to tune it to tenor pitch and never could get an A string to go to pitch due to the length of the scale. I kept that banjo around for a couple of years thinking I would adapt some 5 string neck to it. In the end I resold it, recouping the entire $100 it cost me!
I often wonder where it is now?? The banjo was so clean and nice I couldn't bring myself to cannibalize it. I think the buyer lived in Canandagua NY. Have any members seen such a banjo in the area?

Dustyone - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:52:10

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Hi
So what does that tell you? I guess a lot of thes pre-war Gibsons just might
be gibson parts banjo's?

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Edited by - Dustyone on 10/22/2009 09:52:46

beegee - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:57:55

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I'd like some documentation for all the "cut-label" flatheads. What happened to all the thousands of arch-top rings that were supposedly swapped out for flatheads "at the factory?"

__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  10:07:52

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Thanks for the thoughtful answers to my questions, Joe.

Yup... It's as confusing as I figured it would be. I've often said...
Nothin' is ever simple with banjos...


And there are related implications for my own study of Bacon banjos -- which ALSO
commonly suffer from swapped necks, rims, and other parts.

SOME are obvious "factory re-configurations". But others are simply later-owners
swapping, and pilfering. I causes real concerns, when trying to figure-out what's
"factory-original" and what isn't. (And serious financial-value issues are often involved.)

(Unfortunately, I have employee interview info that the Bacon factory records were
destroyed, on purpose, as part of the bankruptcy. My only hope is that some supervisor
had hand-copied a set of production or shipping info, for personal use -- and that
turns up, sometime...)

I look forward to your future discoveries.

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 10/22/2009 10:10:10

mvolcjak - Posted - 10/22/2009:  20:54:18

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Joe,
Another great topic - please write the book & put me down for a copy. Thanks for your posts...

Slightly off topic, but in regards to necks - did Gibson ever produce a 271/8" scale 5-string neck? From what I have read, the scale was shortened to 26 1/4" around the time of the OPF introduction. 2 piece flange banjos allegedly used the 271/8" scale neck. I started a thread here asking if anyone actually had an orginal Gibson pre-war 5-string neck that used the 271/8 scale (from any year - maybe pre-Mastertone?). From the responses here, no such thing exists - all used the 261/4" scale. In your research, have you ever come across any documentation related to 5 string neck scale lengths?

ThanX

Take it Easy ... MarK

Joe Spann - Posted - 10/23/2009:  07:06:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by mvolcjak Slightly off topic, but in regards to necks - did Gibson ever produce a 271/8" scale 5-string neck? In your research, have you ever come across any documentation related to 5 string neck scale lengths?

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Mark,

Even though the catalogs advertised a 27" scale length all of the pre-World War II Gibson original five string and plectrum necks of my acquaintance use the 26 1/4" scale length. I've seen nothing yet in the remaining factory records which relates to scale lengths on any Gibson instrument.