mwc9725e - Posted - 10/22/2009:  04:17:32

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I must be especially dense, and I hate to beat a dead horse, but I still can't figure out what the circle of fifths is good for. I know how to make chords, and I know how many semitones there are between each note in the major scale, so I know how to take any scale and see how many sharps & flats that scale has. I know what the harmonized scale is and how to write it down. I also know how the various modal scales are formed by rotating one to produce the other -- I don't do that often, so I'd have to consult the web for the details, should I need to do it, but at least I know it can be done.

I know there must be something magic about it, but darned if I can understand what it is. I do know WHAT it is, I just don't know WHY it is -- and that's the important thing. Any help would be appreciated.


Bill Martin

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Edited by - mwc9725e on 10/22/2009 04:41:14

youdye - Posted - 10/22/2009:  05:27:23

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Here is what wikipedia has to say:

quote:

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In music theory, the circle of fifths (or circle of fourths) shows the relationships among the twelve tones of the chromatic scale, their corresponding key signatures, and the associated major and minor keys. More specifically, it is a geometrical representation of relationships among the 12 pitch classes of the chromatic scale in pitch class space. Musicians and composers use the circle of fifths to understand and describe those relationships. It is intended to be a guide for composition and now it has become essential to writing music due to its design that is very helpful in composing and harmonizing melodies, building chords, and moving to different keys within a composition.[1]

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Hope this helps, have a GREAT day!


4+1=Hootnanny!
O=='={::}

Glenn Tate - Posted - 10/22/2009:  05:46:26

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You might be missing the fact that not everyone reads music. If you can’t read music, and you are in a situation where you are told the next song will be 3 sharps or 2 flats, the circle of 5ths quickly lets you know in what key the song is.

I could have used it years ago when I had to play fill in bass guitar in a polka band. They used sheet music, and every time a new song started, they would tell me how many sharps or flats to play. I didn’t know sharps and flats, and they didn’t know what key it was. I had to figure it out on the fly.

In addition, if you want to learn a song out of a hymnbook in the key it was written in, the circle of 5ths will let you know what the key it is.


"Politicians are like diapers, both should be changed regularly, for the same reason."

Glenn

pearcemusic - Posted - 10/22/2009:  05:50:38

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hey Bill ...

it sounds to me like you might already know what the circle is trying to tell you.

the circle, for me, is just a logical "key" for understanding "keys".

it's an easy way to get a lot of technical info, like the number and order of sharps or flats.

I use it to move thru keys it practicing a particular phrase thru all keys.
example:
I vi ii V chord changes in all keys.... moving upward in fourths.
if you know the order on the circle, you easily see the keys moving up in 4ths, which is a musically pleasing sound.
C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G C

The Pearce Family Bluegrass Band
www.pearcemusic.com

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/22/2009:  07:48:57

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Thanks for the responses. Maybe I'm expecting too much "magic" attached to the circle of fifths. From all the discussions I've heard, I thought there must be a bit of that associated with it. But I can lay out any scale in any key linearly on a piece of paper ( and in my head, too ) and plainly see the sharps and flats, so I really didn't see why it's necessary to clutter up my memory with the circle of fifths.

The reason I'm so sensitive to it is that such a thing happened to me when I was studying algebra in high school -- the "teacher" taught us all those rules about "transposing", i.e. magically picking something up from one side of an equation, changing its sign, and then plunking it down on the other side; And dividing fractions by magically flipping the divisor upside down and multiplying instead of dividing, and various other feats of black magic that weren't mathematics at all, that I lost track of mathematics. It wasn't until I re-took the class in college, where they taught mathematics instead of mathemagic that I found that all those parlor tricks were meaningless -- worse, they got in the way of the real stuff, by cluttering up my mind.

So I wondered if the circle of fifths is the same sort of thing, another convenience parlor trick -- Is there anything I can do with that circle that I cannot do by just using the music theory fundamentals and laying out the scales linearly on, say, a piece of paper?

salvatone - Posted - 10/22/2009:  07:56:16

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You play Foggy Moutain Top in Bb in your sound page recording. The actual chords are Bb Eb Bb and F, although you probably play them with a capo. These chords are clustered together on the circle of fifths.

If I said that we would play this song in another key, you could look at the circle and use the same spacial relationship to figure out what chords to play.

There are more complex applications, but this is where it starts.



Salvatone

steve davis - Posted - 10/22/2009:  07:56:21

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I only ever used the circle as a map for students to find the
I IV V and "off chord(A in the key of G).
Then to help understand how all the different keys work the same.

250gibson - Posted - 10/22/2009:  07:58:52

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This brings up an interesting point. I learned the "circle" many years ago, however it was refered to as the circle of fourths, and was essentially a mirror image of the circle of fifths. I know they are the same thing, and it depends if you read it going clockwise or counterclockwise, but I find it interesting with the terminology and set-up.

As anyone else learned or heard the circle refered to as the circle of fourths, listed as clockwise around the circle as:
C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G C

Like I said I guess it doesn't matter because you get the same results/information regardless of how it is written and or read, but again I find it interesting that when I learned theory there was different nomenclature. It wasn't just my teacher either, books and learning materials had it written this way also.

pernicketylad - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:14:49

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You're not alone Bill......I've often asked the same question.

There are three types of people in the world.....those who can count and those who can't!

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:32:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by salvatone

You play Foggy Moutain Top in Bb in your sound page recording. The actual chords are Bb Eb Bb and F, although you probably play them with a capo. These chords are clustered together on the circle of fifths.

If I said that we would play this song in another key, you could look at the circle and use the same spacial relationship to figure out what chords to play.

There are more complex applications, but this is where it starts.



Salvatone

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OK, that's a start. But if you told me we had to play it in, say, G, couldn't i just use the I, IV, and V chords ( G, C, D ) as I did in Bb? And I didn't use the circle to figure that out. Is it that using the circle is faster? That might be a good reason to memorize it.

edit: by the way, thanks for listening. I didn't even know it was Bb, I just tune the thing or capo til I can find something that's compatible with my "voice". I'm a "bent neck"obsessive freak, so I usually keep my banjos tuned low, to avoid any extra stress on the neck, and proceed from that point. I rarely know what key they're tuned to.

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Edited by - mwc9725e on 10/22/2009 08:43:27

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:42:17

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There are places ](probably not in the huddle at the courthouse square on Thursday night in the middle of Shuckin the Corn ((unless you're Randal Morton lol..)) ) to play a lick using the root notes of the circle of 4ths and achieve a really nice outside sounding lick, not to mention if you elaborate on it, you can stop at different points along the way of the lick and jump in and out of it. It gets kinda crazy and I usually get lost at one point or another when I attempt it, which to me is part of the improv fun of it!

For a real challenge to some of you, there is an "independence" study, kind of a rudiment, for piano players, but I have done it with a whole band or just two instruments and it demonstrates all the possible intervals from the chromatic scale. Have one instrument play each note of the circle (11 before the octave) and repeat and do not deviate from time. the second instrument come in and play it simultaniously with the first, however when it comes back around each time, the second instrument will hold off for one note before begining again creating that first interval, the next time again, which moves it another half step away, etc... lol.. its allot of fun and if you make it to the end without messin up too much.. I hail you compodre.. It's really fun watching a piano player do it by themselves mind blowing..

HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:51:15

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If you want to play dixieland or ragtime, you can get the chord progressions from the circle of fifths.
Five Foot Two or Salty Dog start with the key, jump ahead 3 or 4 notches then walk their way back home.

If you can already find fifths up and down from anyplace, you can build the circle of fifths whenever you need, but musically, the ability to find 5ths and fourths and the places in-between are what you need on the instrument.

I think the real advantage of the Circle is that it shows you how basic scalar theory was developed and extended until it became circular which then mandated the equal-tempering of the scales which then made modern music sound the way it does and also fit squarely into the circle of fifths.

But I teach it to folks merely to help them understand chord progressions. The 1-4-5 chord pattern is the fundamental unit of the circle. Modern music tends to use clockwise chords. Modal tunes use counterclockwise chords.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

kmisho - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:53:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by mwc9725e

Thanks for the responses. Maybe I'm expecting too much "magic" attached to the circle of fifths. From all the discussions I've heard, I thought there must be a bit of that associated with it. But I can lay out any scale in any key linearly on a piece of paper ( and in my head, too ) and plainly see the sharps and flats, so I really didn't see why it's necessary to clutter up my memory with the circle of fifths.

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It is of course legal to skip to the end and just work with the end product. But if you want to know WHY the keys are what they are, the circle of fifths is essential.

Have you ever wondered why bass parts have a lot of fifths and octaves, middle parts are chords and melodies go on top? Have you ever wondered why a clarinet sounds different from a trumpet? Have you ever wondered why a lot of folk melodies are pentatonic? The answer to all of these can be found in understanding the harmonic series.

http://cnx.org/content/m11118/latest/

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:07:36

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At last some details -- you folks are a great help. As a teechur, I've learned through the years that it isn't sufficient to teach someone HOW to do something, you also need to motivate them to believe it's important to know what you're trying to teach, and to do that they need to understand WHY they should learn it.

In my guitar playing days, my instructors showed me the circle of fifths and suggested it was good to memorize it, but this is the first time I can recall getting some ideas on why it's good to memorize it. Thanks again.

Richard Dress - Posted - 10/22/2009:  09:10:34

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About 90% of classic bluegrass songs are I,IV,V. Of the 10% remaining, some have minors like FMB, some are like "Old Home Place", blah, blah, and some have a circle of 5ths structure like "Salty Dog". If we can listen for these types of songs, then they are much easier to figure out on the fly.

We all have to train our ears to follow along on a song we don't know--you can't jam unless you can do that. If we know a new song has a circle of 5ths, then we have a big hint on how to chord along with it. That's what i think it's good for.

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 10/22/2009:  12:33:10

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One of the most practical uses for the circle of 5ths, is remembering that the order will give you a succession of sharps, through the circle.

C, has no sharps. It's 5th is G.

G, has one sharp, F#(the new sharp always comes on the 7th of the scale.) It's 5th

D, has two sharps; the F# from the previous scale, and the new sharp (7th,) C#. So now F# and C# will be used in the next key in the circle, which is A.

A has 3 sharps; the C# and F# from the previous scale, and the new 7th, G#. It's 5th is E.

E will have four sharps, the 3 previous, and it's new 7th, D#. It's fifth is B.

B has 5 sharps.

F#, 6.

Knowing your circle of 5ths well, means that you can look at a piece of music and say, "4 sharps" "I'm in E", or more likely, "One sharp" "I'm in G."

The key signature is at the front of each line on the staff.

Also, each key has a relative minor. Looking at the I,IV,V, C, F and G will give you a formula for substitution. If the notes are laid out like a clock, C is Twelve O'Clock, F is Eleven O',Clock, and G is One O'Clock.

The relative minor of C is Am, the relative minor of F is Dm, and the relative minor of G is Em. So, using the clusters, one could harmonize, C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G 7th and A minor.

The seventh note, as in the succession of sharps, is problematic. Many doctors of theory try to stuff the VII chord into their theory, but it is just a harmony for the V.

The VII can be used as a minor seventh, flat V, but that is bogus, because it is easy
to hear, it is simply a harmony for the dominant 7th. Another option is to make a diminished chord, which is really a dominant 7th with a flat 9. This is harmonically inconsistent, because it uses the raised V of the tonic, instead of morphing into the construct of the tonic, but it works as a substitute, and the VII is problematic anyway, and should be expected to make a few problems.

The circle of 4ths is more musical, and should be a continual progression exercise, not to mention, the order provides the key signatures for the flat keys.

C, no flats,
F, one.
Bb, two.
Eb, three.
Ab, four.
Db, five,
Gb, six.

You could have seven or eight flats if you want to push it, but once you get to Gb, you are also playing F#, so there is little use in calling B, Cb, unless you are a horn player who has trouble reading through the dominant cycle.

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/22/2009:  13:28:58

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How much do I owe you for this Rob???

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Bourassa

One of the most practical uses for the circle of 5ths, is remembering that the order will give you a succession of sharps, through the circle.

C, has no sharps. It's 5th is G.

G, has one sharp, F#(the new sharp always comes on the 7th of the scale.) It's 5th

D, has two sharps; the F# from the previous scale, and the new sharp (7th,) C#. So now F# and C# will be used in the next key in the circle, which is A.

A has 3 sharps; the C# and F# from the previous scale, and the new 7th, G#. It's 5th is E.

E will have four sharps, the 3 previous, and it's new 7th, D#. It's fifth is B.

B has 5 sharps.

F#, 6.

Knowing your circle of 5ths well, means that you can look at a piece of music and say, "4 sharps" "I'm in E", or more likely, "One sharp" "I'm in G."

The key signature is at the front of each line on the staff.

Also, each key has a relative minor. Looking at the I,IV,V, C, F and G will give you a formula for substitution. If the notes are laid out like a clock, C is Twelve O'Clock, F is Eleven O',Clock, and G is One O'Clock.

The relative minor of C is Am, the relative minor of F is Dm, and the relative minor of G is Em. So, using the clusters, one could harmonize, C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G 7th and A minor.

The seventh note, as in the succession of sharps, is problematic. Many doctors of theory try to stuff the VII chord into their theory, but it is just a harmony for the V.

The VII can be used as a minor seventh, flat V, but that is bogus, because it is easy
to hear, it is simply a harmony for the dominant 7th. Another option is to make a diminished chord, which is really a dominant 7th with a flat 9. This is harmonically inconsistent, because it uses the raised V of the tonic, instead of morphing into the construct of the tonic, but it works as a substitute, and the VII is problematic anyway, and should be expected to make a few problems.

The circle of 4ths is more musical, and should be a continual progression exercise, not to mention, the order provides the key signatures for the flat keys.

C, no flats,
F, one.
Bb, two.
Eb, three.
Ab, four.
Db, five,
Gb, six.

You could have seven or eight flats if you want to push it, but once you get to Gb, you are also playing F#, so there is little use in calling B, Cb, unless you are a horn player who has trouble reading through the dominant cycle.

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HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

salvatone - Posted - 10/22/2009:  14:03:48

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[/quote]

OK, that's a start. But if you told me we had to play it in, say, G, couldn't i just use the I, IV, and V chords ( G, C, D ) as I did in Bb? And I didn't use the circle to figure that out. Is it that using the circle is faster? That might be a good reason to memorize it.

[/quote]

That is the circle of fifths. The V chord is on one side of the root (I chord) and the IV chord is on the other side of the root (I chord)

Salvatone

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 10/22/2009:  22:29:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by 5stringypsy

How much do I owe you for this Rob???

Freely give, for freely have ye received.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Bourassa

One of the most practical uses for the circle of 5ths, is remembering that the order will give you a succession of sharps, through the circle.

C, has no sharps. It's 5th is G.

G, has one sharp, F#(the new sharp always comes on the 7th of the scale.) It's 5th

D, has two sharps; the F# from the previous scale, and the new sharp (7th,) C#. So now F# and C# will be used in the next key in the circle, which is A.

A has 3 sharps; the C# and F# from the previous scale, and the new 7th, G#. It's 5th is E.

E will have four sharps, the 3 previous, and it's new 7th, D#. It's fifth is B.

B has 5 sharps.

F#, 6.

Knowing your circle of 5ths well, means that you can look at a piece of music and say, "4 sharps" "I'm in E", or more likely, "One sharp" "I'm in G."

The key signature is at the front of each line on the staff.

Also, each key has a relative minor. Looking at the I,IV,V, C, F and G will give you a formula for substitution. If the notes are laid out like a clock, C is Twelve O'Clock, F is Eleven O',Clock, and G is One O'Clock.

The relative minor of C is Am, the relative minor of F is Dm, and the relative minor of G is Em. So, using the clusters, one could harmonize, C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G 7th and A minor.

The seventh note, as in the succession of sharps, is problematic. Many doctors of theory try to stuff the VII chord into their theory, but it is just a harmony for the V.

The VII can be used as a minor seventh, flat V, but that is bogus, because it is easy
to hear, it is simply a harmony for the dominant 7th. Another option is to make a diminished chord, which is really a dominant 7th with a flat 9. This is harmonically inconsistent, because it uses the raised V of the tonic, instead of morphing into the construct of the tonic, but it works as a substitute, and the VII is problematic anyway, and should be expected to make a few problems.

The circle of 4ths is more musical, and should be a continual progression exercise, not to mention, the order provides the key signatures for the flat keys.

C, no flats,
F, one.
Bb, two.
Eb, three.
Ab, four.
Db, five,
Gb, six.

You could have seven or eight flats if you want to push it, but once you get to Gb, you are also playing F#, so there is little use in calling B, Cb, unless you are a horn player who has trouble reading through the dominant cycle.

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HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

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Richard Dress - Posted - 10/23/2009:  07:57:26

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Interesting stuff, but does any of it help the bluegrass banjo player who doesn't take the sheet music around to gigs?

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/23/2009:  08:40:03

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Instead of using the circle for reading sheet, there are many other advantages for the itinerant picker.

I count 1-4-5 on my hands for chords.
E f g A B gives me the main chords for the key of E even though I counted the notes of the scale wrong (they should be F# and G#).

Using the circle of fifths helped me categorize major chord progressions into 4 types and modals into another group which I use at jams all the time to quickly pick up strange chord progressions in other keys.
Essentially, the circle gave me the knowledge to know which are common chords and that freed me up to only have to ask someone what the odd chord is in that tune.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/23/2009:  09:03:09

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It's not restricted to sheet music, it's general music knowledge and just a handy tool to have in your head, a good tool to use in motion and composition, if a person even wants it. I know countless musicians of every instrument that would smoke my butt under the table and probably half the folks here and would go "What?? A circle of WHO???" hehe.. None of this kind of stuff is "necessary". I know composition nerds at Universities that couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag on anything but a piano who are I'm sure well on their way to doctorates.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Interesting stuff, but does any of it help the bluegrass banjo player who doesn't take the sheet music around to gigs?

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HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

Richard Dress - Posted - 10/23/2009:  09:47:07

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"Essentially, the circle gave me the knowledge to know which are common chords and that freed me up to only have to ask someone what the odd chord is in that tune." -- mike

I agree with that. If you can recognize the Co5, it saves some questions. That's one practical thing for Bill's question. I personally can't think of anything else of practical use to the average picker.

steve davis - Posted - 10/23/2009:  10:42:15

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The circle tells you the odd chord,too.
It's the second one to the right of the root.

salvatone - Posted - 10/23/2009:  10:54:17

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If you take any five adjacent notes on the circle you will have the notes in a pentatonic scale, though not in order. The circle starting with C and going clock wise is C G D A E. The C pentatonic scale is C D E G A C. That works anywhere on the circle. Bill Keith told me that.

In that same cluster, the Am pentatonic scale is A C D E G A.

I would like a circle of fifths clock. Right now it is F minutes before the hour of D.

Salvatone

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Edited by - salvatone on 10/23/2009 10:57:18

Richard Dress - Posted - 10/23/2009:  11:20:03

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"The circle tells you the odd chord,too.
It's the second one to the right of the root." --steve
=================
I want to believe.

Here's an example JD's "Old Home Place". Suppose it's being played in the key of A. How does the Circle tell you what the odd chord is? And who is telling you that it's the 2nd to the right and not the 3rd to the left? What am I missing?

Is my problem with understanding lie in my lack of familiarity with chromatic/melodic banjo? Please somebody shed some light. I'm with Bill on this one. Where is it going to help me play the banjo? And I never think about the number of sharps and flats.

steve davis - Posted - 10/23/2009:  11:53:29

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When I said odd chord I meant the common one such as A for the
key of G or D for the key of C.

Flatting the IV chord like OHP does is something different.I don't know what the circle says about that.

I don't see how the circle has helped my playing,but it can help
someone learning to see the relationship of chords and keys.

I find it curiously interesting.

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/23/2009:  13:20:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

"The circle tells you the odd chord,too.
It's the second one to the right of the root." --steve
=================
I want to believe.

Here's an example JD's "Old Home Place". Suppose it's being played in the key of A. How does the Circle tell you what the odd chord is? And who is telling you that it's the 2nd to the right and not the 3rd to the left? What am I missing?

Is my problem with understanding lie in my lack of familiarity with chromatic/melodic banjo? Please somebody shed some light. I'm with Bill on this one. Where is it going to help me play the banjo? And I never think about the number of sharps and flats.

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My ignorance is even more profound. What the heck's "the odd chord".

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/23/2009:  13:23:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

When I said odd chord I meant the common one such as A for the
key of G or D for the key of C.

Flatting the IV chord like OHP does is something different.I don't know what the circle says about that.

I don't see how the circle has helped my playing,but it can help
someone learning to see the relationship of chords and keys.

I find it curiously interesting.

---

By odd chord, do you mean the II chord? Why would the circle help figure out what that is, seems like it would be self-evident?

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/23/2009:  13:29:15

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The odd chord in Old Home Place in A is C#.
The circle doesn't tell you that.
It just gives you all the others, the 1,2,4,5 chords.
If you got all those, there's only one odd chord outside the circle of 5ths: the 3.

I categorize 4 major chord progressions. Three are from the circle of 5ths: 1-4-5, 2-5 and Five-Foot-Two-type
The other is the 1-3-4 progression found in Old Home Place, Pallet On Your Floor, Take It to the Limit, Tennessee Waltz and many other tunes.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

steve davis - Posted - 10/23/2009:  13:41:02

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What the circle tells me is stuff I already knew,but it is handy information to help others see how chord logic looks on a graph.


My dad used to call the A chord in the key of G the odd or minor chord.
I knew what he meant.

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Edited by - steve davis on 10/23/2009 13:42:55

Richard Dress - Posted - 10/23/2009:  16:14:27

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OK, now I think I have it.

What is the Co5 good for?

If you recognize it in a song, then you don't have to ask what the chords are.

That's all you need to know in a practical sense about the Co5.

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/24/2009:  07:33:49

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Dress

OK, now I think I have it.

What is the Co5 good for?

If you recognize it in a song, then you don't have to ask what the chords are.

That's all you need to know in a practical sense about the Co5.

---

Please, I'm dying to know. Honestly. What does "odd chord" mean?

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/24/2009:  07:34:32

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Dress

OK, now I think I have it.

What is the Co5 good for?

If you recognize it in a song, then you don't have to ask what the chords are.

That's all you need to know in a practical sense about the Co5.

---

Please, I'm dying to know. Honestly. What does "odd chord" mean?

Richard Dress - Posted - 10/24/2009:  07:51:57

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"Please, I'm dying to know. Honestly. What does "odd chord" mean?"

I have no idea. Its a new term as far as I am concerned. But I don't think you need to spend any time on it in the context of Co5. I hope that everyone will agree with my summary above.

However, maybe you mean something different than I do when I ask what it's "good for".

steve davis - Posted - 10/24/2009:  08:10:48

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The odd chord is the 4th chord in a song other than the I IV or V.

It's sometimes called the minor chord even when it's the A.
That's an old way to describe any chord that isn't the I IV or V.

My dad often called the A in the key of G the "minor"which is also
an old fashioned description.
Even though it's technically incorrect it makes you look out for that odd chord.

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 10/25/2009:  00:51:24

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The "odd" chord being talked about is the III, or 3 chord as a major. It is in the circle of 5ths as well. In the key of A, it would be C#, which is the relative minor of the V, or dominant 7th. (E)

The reason it is being referred to as "odd" is because it isn't being used in it's regular sense, conforming to the notes of the A major scale. If C# were conforming to the A scale, it would use an E, instead of an F for it's third, and it would be a minor.

The mediant, or III, will be the start of the tonic's Phrygian mode, and will be a minor chord. So, if one is playing a C# chord in the key of A, it is usually a minor chord. To hear it as a major, would make it sound "odd."

The chords, conforming to modal resolution, will form as either major, minor or sevenths, depending upon the root and it's position in the scale. The VII is the odd man out, and it's true usage is as a harmony for the V.

So, in the key of C;

1. C, major, 2. D, minor, 3. E, minor, 4. F, major, 5. G, seventh, 6. A, minor, (B is neither major, minor or seventh, but a harmony for the G7th, (though some call it the minor 7th b5.) A diminished can also be used. It is really a dominant chord though.

So, if you look above, the III, or 3 chord was supposed to be a minor. If we use it as a major, it sounds very unusual, but pleasing. The II and the VI can also be made major as well, depending on the substitutions.

Banjo Island - Posted - 10/27/2009:  04:35:11

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I tend to think of the circle of fifths as just a pretty picture which shows the relationship between keys in a pleasing visual way. Kind of like musical Spirograph.

Do I use it? Yes in the sense of I use the theory that it pictorally represents; no in the sense of carrying around a piece of paper with it shown on and break it out from time to time and go "right, I'm here, so the other chords are here and here" or count "one, two, three, four, five, a-ha, 5 flats means this is Db" sort of thing.

It's a nice way to help demonstrate why certain chords "go together" or, say, why the key of D quite closely relates to the key of G, whereas the key of G# doesn't. But it's hardly the musical skeleton key that'll unlock everything you ever wanted to know about music.

Banjo Island
http://www.ukbluegrass.com

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/28/2009:  04:52:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjo Island

I tend to think of the circle of fifths as just a pretty picture which shows the relationship between keys in a pleasing visual way. Kind of like musical Spirograph.

Do I use it? Yes in the sense of I use the theory that it pictorally represents; no in the sense of carrying around a piece of paper with it shown on and break it out from time to time and go "right, I'm here, so the other chords are here and here" or count "one, two, three, four, five, a-ha, 5 flats means this is Db" sort of thing.

It's a nice way to help demonstrate why certain chords "go together" or, say, why the key of D quite closely relates to the key of G, whereas the key of G# doesn't. But it's hardly the musical skeleton key that'll unlock everything you ever wanted to know about music.

Banjo Island
http://www.ukbluegrass.com

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When I was in the seventh grade, I had a music teacher who showed us how to find the key immediately by looking at the key signature at the beginning of a piece of music. I don't remember the rule, but something like if the key signature consisted of sharps, the key was the highest sharp to the left -- that's not the correct rule, just an example of what the rule was like. There was a similar rule for flats. Anyone ever use that rule? I'd like to remember what it is. Maybe I'll have to try to work it out ( from the circle of fifths :>) )

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/28/2009:  07:59:12

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It's one tone higher than the last (rightmost) sharp.
1 sharp is F#= key of G
2 sharps are F#+C# =key of D

I found it easier to just calculate the circle of fifths as needed.
==================================================
Note also that key signature only applies if the song is written in major scale (Ionian mode). Dorian in D would be most easily written in the key signature of C as would something written in A minor.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/28/2009:  11:10:01

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The "odd chord" in Old Home Place is discussed here:
http://www.banjohangout.org/pages/f...IC_ID=151628

In the key of A, the chord C# (or C#7) is the secondary dominant of F#m - but this diatonic ( = belonging to the key) chord F#m is substituted by another diatonic chord D.

Circle of fifths helps to find (or understand) secondary dominants. Does not help much to detect the substitution.

Mirek

_________________________________________________________________
Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string):
Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo
Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo
http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatek
Handout for workshops at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 10/28/2009 11:12:07

mwc9725e - Posted - 10/28/2009:  11:18:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

It's one tone higher than the last (rightmost) sharp.
1 sharp is F#= key of G
2 sharps are F#+C# =key of D

I found it easier to just calculate the circle of fifths as needed.
==================================================
Note also that key signature only applies if the song is written in major scale (Ionian mode). Dorian in D would be most easily written in the key signature of C as would something written in A minor.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Thanks, that's it. It's been 65 years ago when I learned that rule, so I guess I didn't have much need for it. It's just one of those "amaze your friends" rules, I guess.

banjoak - Posted - 10/28/2009:  15:36:24

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I always thought of the circle of fifths as a music theory explanation to what our ears already know. The relation of adjacent fifths, the pentatonic scale, even the diatonic scale, people already were playing before the concept of circle of fifths came up. Mathematicians got involved with music, wanted to find explanation. One thing they used the circle for was to map out the chromatic scale to come out with 12, so you end up back at home (well almost).

A better circle of fifths for banjo would be: in front of you is Jamesons, to the right is Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, Maker's Mark, Wild Turkey, Bushmills, Cutty Sark, Glenlivet, Michael Collins, Hiram Walker, Crown Royal, Knob Creek, and then your back to the Jamesons. Now that's where the magic is!

salvatone - Posted - 10/30/2009:  11:25:48

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Banjoak, you have one too many fifths there, but who's counting?

Salvatone

banjoak - Posted - 10/30/2009:  12:08:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by salvatone

Banjoak, you have one too many fifths there, but who's counting?

Salvatone

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No there are just 12 fifths, Jamesons was the first and as you follow the circle you end up on Jamesons again, but it's not a different bottle.

Of course by the time you get back to it it has a sip taken out of it. (it has to to make the math work)

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Edited by - banjoak on 10/30/2009 12:10:28

gdoc - Posted - 11/05/2009:  23:55:12

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I may be saying this wrong, but I hope you will understand what I am asking.

Is there a difference between playing in the key say "C# or the key of Db?"

As I understand it the scale would be the same, and chord progressons? Is there a difference in the feel of the melody? Or a difference at all?

I'll never get a good nights sleep again until I know.

gdoc

banjoak - Posted - 11/06/2009:  00:30:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by gdoc


Is there a difference between playing in the key say "C# or the key of Db?"

As I understand it the scale would be the same, and chord progressons? Is there a difference in the feel of the melody? Or a difference at all?

I'll never get a good nights sleep again until I know.

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If you are using equal temperament they are the same pitch. And just sitting there by themselves the difference is irrelevant.

And if you want the easy answer, and if you want to get to sleep, STOP HERE.

Technically, yes there is a difference. First from a non-equal tempered point of view they actually aren't the same pitch.

Understanding the difference can help in chord building. It's a little more than just naming convention. They connote a different meaning. It's about harmonic context. So they sound different, because the other notes and chords you play would be different.

But even more, and a little complex to comprehend, equal tempered is based on implied harmonic relationships. Our brains have the ability to correct the heard implied pitch to what the real harmonic relationship should be, based on it's context. So we would hear the note differently.

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Edited by - banjoak on 11/06/2009 00:36:57

gdoc - Posted - 11/06/2009:  08:36:08

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Thanks Banjoak

I thought that might be the case, although it's still WAY over my hear, but at least, yes, I can sleep now knowing that there IS a difference and not just something I was reading into it.

gdoc

RPM - Posted - 11/06/2009:  10:03:51

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Like Mirek was saying, it sounds like "odd chord" is some vernacular for a secondary dominant.
The dominant chord is the V(7) chord. So if you're in the key of G, the D(7) chord is the dominant chord because it's built on the fifth note in the major scale. Dominant chords in Western music are the ones that build tension and make you want to resolve back to the I chord.


A secondary dominant is a dominant of a chord other than the I chord in the scale. A very common one in bluegrass (and lots of other music) is the "V of V." That would be the A(7) chord in the key of G or the D(7) chord in the key of C that Steve was talking about.

The "V of V" is the dominant of the key's dominant chord. In G, an A(7) chord is the dominant of the D(7). (A is the V of D). Likewise a D(7) is the dominant of the G(7) that's the V(7) in the key of C.

The C#7 in the key of A is also a secondary dominant. It's the secondary dominant of the vi chord in the key of A -- F#m. A V(7) of vi.

Since the key of F#m is the relative minor of A, if you go to the C#7 before you go to the F#m, it could be a signal that you're modulating to F#m.
Of course, a V of V chord in a major key could also be a signal that you're modulating -- for example to the key of D from the key of G when you play a A(7) before the D. Or to the key of G from C when you play a D(7) before the G.

It all depends on where you go next.

Generally if you're not playing jazz, a secondary dominant will almost always be a major chord.

Mirek: Substituting a D for an F#minor in the key of A or F# minor is a pretty close substitution because they share two notes. D,F#,A and F#,A,C#. That half note difference between D and C# could be a good passing tone if you substituted one for the other.

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Edited by - RPM on 11/06/2009 10:05:50