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pinch - Posted - 10/21/2009: 12:18:28
Why are banjo dots at the 3rd, 5th,7th, 10th and 12th frets?
MitchellB - Posted - 10/21/2009: 12:43:23
I have always wondered why #10 banjo & mandolin and it is #9 on the guitar?
Mitchell
Brian T - Posted - 10/21/2009: 13:37:49
Yeah, me too. I'm guessing that they're sort of geographic memory aids for your head (if you have to look at the fret board anyway.) I bought a Simon & Patrick Concert Classical which took me 6 weeks to realize there were no dots in the fretboard. I was taught not to look, just learn to do it right.
We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot
D.W. - Posted - 10/21/2009: 13:57:07
As far as music theory knowlege goes - I'm an infant. But I do know that the 12 fret marks one Octave on all the strings on a banjo.
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"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
- Fran, "Strictly Ballroom" (1992)
Edited by - D.W. on 10/21/2009 14:07:52
1four5 - Posted - 10/21/2009: 14:16:57
I asked the same question several years ago, and never got the definitive answer (but lots of interesting replies and theorys). However, the one that made the most sense was "for the same reason there a mile markers on the highway, a means to help you navigate". As for the 9th and 10th situation, I played guitar for a looooong time before banjo, and after 3 years of trying, I could not get the banjo's 10th marker to register in my brain...and it was a constant source of mistakes between my banjo and guitar... so... I moved the ones on my banjos to the 9th fret, and all has been well ever since.
Dean
Edited by - 1four5 on 10/21/2009 14:18:31
3fingers - Posted - 10/21/2009: 15:46:58
I always kinda figured it had something to do with chord positions up the neck in G major
Craig
http://www.myspace.com/borrowedtyme2
Come along down to the barnyard lets have us a little banjer pickin
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Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8 10:9, 10:13, 1st John 5:10-13.
dpeters - Posted - 10/21/2009: 15:48:42
I recently played a banjo that had been setup with its 10th fret marker at the 9th fret for just the same reason Dean mentioned. For ages I've been fooling myself that I don't play using the fret markers... Oh dear, another illusion shattered!
Dave
MitchellB - Posted - 10/21/2009: 16:22:01
9th -10th markers? I learned banjo first, so going to a guitar threw me at first. I never think about it anymore unless I try to transpose a guitar lick to banjo or a banjo lick to guitar for the first time. Sometimes it will trip me up then.
Mitchell
John Gribble - Posted - 10/21/2009: 17:55:51
Here's my theory concerning the 9th fret/10th fret difference between banjo and guitar. The standard tuning for banjo for most "literate" players well into the Twentieth Century was C tuning (gCGBD). Minstrel, classical, and plectrum banjo all use that tuning for most their pieces. The 10th fret on the first string is a C note. The F chord fingering with the first string fretted at the 10th fret is a C chord.
Guitar is an E-tuned instrument. Third string 9th fret is an E note, the beginning of a very handy E scale. A half barre at the 9th fret (2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings, pinky on the first string 12th fret) is an E chord.
Concerning 5th and 7th frets, there is a music theory reason. If the open string is the root or key note, 5th fret is the subdominant or fourth, and the 7th fret is the dominant or fifth. Important musical intervals.
I have never figured out the rationale behind an inlay at the 3rd fret, other than those first 4 frets plain look "barren" or asymmetrical to some people. And why an inlay on the first fret with some fancy instruments? Decoration only.
John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan
Edited by - John Gribble on 10/21/2009 18:16:37
SPLogDog - Posted - 10/21/2009: 19:43:31
Does anyone know SS Stewarts logic behind his dot positions? I seem to remember he didn't put the double dots on the 12th fret.
"The worst of all fears is the fear of living."-Good ol' Teddy Roosevelt
--Will
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/21/2009: 21:17:43
My old Schall made Jacklyn (aka Jackie O - my avatar) has dots on the 10th and 14th but none on the 12th.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/21/2009: 21:20:52
Oh - and my new Chuck Lee has no position markers on the fingerboard at all. and only a star on the peg head.
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site
Deaf David - Posted - 10/21/2009: 21:29:31
1four5, I'm not sure that instrument you play is still a banjo. It sounds like a new invention that you should consider getting a patent on.
________________________________________________
It's never a good sign when the musician introduces the song by saying, "See if you can tell what this is."
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BRUNO25 - Posted - 10/22/2009: 04:24:40
My Orpheum has the 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 14th and 17th. Someone once commented, playing my banjo, "Oh, a lot of these old banjos have the marker at the 9th instead of the 10th." I don't know how much there is to that or not. My banjo was built in 1915. I think an old Buckbee that I have is also the 9th.
John
thetexan - Posted - 10/22/2009: 10:09:03
Here is my theory.
A 100 to 150 years ago it was customary among most non-musicians to tune a guitar to open G to allow even non guitarist to make use of the instrument. If that is the case then the dots were most probably used to provide a simple chord map for where to bar the fretboard to achieve different chords in the key. ie open G, Bb, C, D, F, G, A, B. Notice it gives you the I, IV, V for each of these common keys, G, C, D, E.
Since dots or fret markers seem to be of no use to strings that are tuned differently since since their mapping would mean different things to different strings and since, other than a casual landmark, they have no real value for guitar or banjo play today, it seems that the answer lies in the past and that they are an archaic leftover of something more useful in days gone by. Thus my theory.
Professor Tex
Edited by - thetexan on 12/08/2009 07:29:18
sensei09 - Posted - 11/01/2009: 10:46:24
what is the origin of Banjo. Is it hard to learn how to play banjo?can anybody know the different tutorils about banjo.
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e_emerick - Posted - 11/20/2009: 11:04:07
Along the same line............what are the "spikes" at 7,9 and 10 on the g string?
1four5 - Posted - 11/20/2009: 11:56:24
quote:
1four5, I'm not sure that instrument you play is still a banjo. It sounds like a new invention that you should consider getting a patent on.
David, I don't know how I missed this!  It's still a banjo allright... just a much more user friendly version for this stubborn guitar player  e- You hook your 5th string under the spikes, so that your drone string is different notes for playing in different keys.
salvatone - Posted - 11/21/2009: 14:10:36
John Gribble
I really like that theory.
Salvatone
trapdoor2 - Posted - 11/22/2009: 20:25:27
I think we've talked about this on a number of occasions over the years...
They're there as a memory device. As Mr. Gribble notes, the dots were placed there during the gCGBD tuning era. I've always said that each represents a 'commonly used barre chord' for that tuning where the 4th string is the IV note (of the chord), 3rd string is the I, 2nd string is the III and the 1st string is the V:
3rd = Bb (EbBbDF).
5th = C (FCEG)
7th = D (GDF#A)
9th = E (AEG#B)
10th = F (BbFAC)
12th = octave
Most of the music written in the 19th and early 20th Cent for the banjo* centers around the 'natural' key (in this case, it is C) of the instrument. In gCGBD tuning, one usually finds tunes written in C with the trio commonly in F. Thus for a classically trained banjoist, it would be only natural to have 'memory reminders' placed where they would do the most good. With this system, you really only have to remember the open tuning and 4 other fret positions. 10th fret for F instead of 9th for E, etc.
As I recall, Ed Britt found a note somewhere that said the dot positions were voted on by a luthier's guild back in the 20's...and finally standardized.
However, exceptions abound...
* remember, these guys were "notation" readers. They rote-memorized the fretboard and read sheet music, often as easily as you and I read the newspaper.
Edited by - trapdoor2 on 11/22/2009 20:34:35
Barbapapa - Posted - 11/30/2009: 11:15:09
My theory is that it is because of the fifth(/first?) string, the G-string, but keep in mind I'm just a beginner. It makes the dots relative to the G-string equal to the rest of the strings. So at the four strings the fret dots are at: 3, 5, 7, 10, 12. And at the G-string, the dots will be (relative to the G-string): 2, 5, 7, 10, 12 - similar to the other four strings. If it was the fret dots at the 9th fret, the dots relative to the G-string would look like: 2, 4, 7, 10, 12 - which perhaps might be confusing, when playing on the G-string. I'm not absolutely sure, but it's just a theory from a beginner. At my banjo, there are two fret dots at the seventh fret, and at the seventh fret relative to the the G-string, there are also two fret dots.
Very well, just a theory, don't take it to serious. More likely it's about the chords, just wanted to share my thoughts
Sincerely,
Adam Alfredsson
Gcapo2A - Posted - 11/30/2009: 12:01:56
The dots obviously help indicate relative positions but as to why those positions are used I have my own theory. I believe it is because they indicate common position for chords. Maybe?
deuceswilde - Posted - 11/30/2009: 21:24:42
quote:
Originally posted by banjoy
It's weird I was just wondering this very question yesterday, after picking for 32 years. I've never really had theories or ideas on this of my own, just wondered. The idea put forth by Professor Tex seems to be plausible to me.
It is a good theory, but Marc has the correct answer. At the time when the banjo began to be made with position marks, documentation suggests that most banjoists played by note. This is the first I have heard of tuning a guitar in chords for non musicians as common practice, is that documented? The Briggs' Banjo Instructor, 1855, page 30, says that a good imitation of the banjo can be had by removing the sixth string and putting the first string in its place and tuning it like a banjo.
Micki - Posted - 12/03/2009: 21:16:59
My third banjo was a custom made by Scott Vestal with a radius fingerboad, No markings on the neck and a hidden 5th string. When we had friends over pickin' some had picked banjo 20 years or more, wanted to try mine. Blew their mind. One guy told me the first thing he would do, If he had one, would be to put markings on the neck. I asked why? At this time I realized how many pickers used the inlay instead of the dots. I loved it like it was because I learned on it, liked the radius fingerboard and had never thought about it. One night this friend was picking and it was Sally Ann or some song he liked and he was a good picker and actually gave lesson at local music store , but went he went down the neck, he lost it.. Where do I go? There are NO markings on this neck! Well Duh! Now I have a question. I have been reading the raves about the fretless necks. Do you play it like a bass as far as chording, and how do you get the best sound?Mitzi
trapdoor2 - Posted - 12/06/2009: 20:25:24
Mitzi, I'm right there with you. When I had my Nechville made (no inlay...but side dots), it took me about 10 minutes to "convert" my brain to looking for the dots when I go up the neck.
Fretless is a whole 'nuther animal. Not sure you'll find any BG players going fretless! OT clawhammer or stroke-style fretless rarely uses full chords (exception: barre) so once you get past the 5th fret, you're limited to the 1st string and sometimes the 2nd. On a fretless, you really end up listening to your own intonation. The fretless sound is very different than fretted. The notes are less clear, more murky and blurred...funky and good if you get it right! Easier on nylons in my opinion but one can develop good hard callouses or use the nails to get a cleaner sound (not what I want out of a fretless!)
And guys/gals? Today's dot positions still relate to the notes. Same basic deal as before, a barre chord at any "dot" position still gives you the basics of the chord: in gDGBD tuning the 4th string will be the Fifth (dominant) note of the scale, the 3rd string will be the First (tonic) note and the 2nd string will be the third (mediant) note (and the 1st string is the octave of the 4th string). Example: 3rd fret = F-Bb-D-F = Bb (B flat).
What can you do if you know this? Well, if you want a 7th and you know the 1st string is the 5th...go two frets up and find a 7th. 3336 = Bb7 (3335 is Bb6) Want Bbm? If you know the 2nd string is the 3rd, you only need to lower that string a single fret. 3323 = Bbm and so on.
3rd fret = Bb
5th fret = C
7th fret = D
10th fret = F
12th fret = G (octave)
15th fret = Bb
17th fret = C
etc.
It ain't random and its not "theory", it was done with musical intent (and if they make it decorative too, why not?) to help you find your way around the fretboard. We no longer teach "music" on the banjo they way it was once done. The meanings aren't lost, they're hiding...waiting for you to discover and use them.
Edited by - trapdoor2 on 12/07/2009 07:09:43
1four5 - Posted - 12/07/2009: 02:09:29
quote:
What can you do if you know this? Well, if you want a 7th and you know the 1st string is the 5th...go two frets up and find a 7th. 3335 = Bb7
Unless I'm missing something, 3336 = Bb7
trapdoor2 - Posted - 12/07/2009: 07:04:58
Oops! Never an editor around when I need one...
I'll fix it.
1four5 - Posted - 12/07/2009: 07:55:21
I saw that because it's one of my most often used chords. The simple barr chord is so incredably versitile, not only as a chord, but as a reference point. 6th chord and 7th chord are no-brainers, The 6th- 7th shuffle right there at you fingertips, all your scale notes are just a hammer or a pull off away, barr all 5 or thumbover anywhere in any key as a movable usable drone, drop the 2nd string back one fret for a minor, drop the 3rd string one back for a major7, 2nd string up one for a sus, 3rd string up two for a 2nd, slide into it from a fret back on any string for freebee notes...etc...etc... As a throwback to open G slide guitar as my roots before banjo, that is always my go-to default chord and reference point for more complex chords, scales, riffs, hooks, and leads...and as it relates to this topic, I live and die by the neck's side dots. Like you, my main banjo has no fretboard markings.
Edited by - 1four5 on 12/08/2009 16:03:02
BentHammers - Posted - 12/08/2009: 14:29:35
Now I have to check out a banjitar or whatever them hybrids are.
1four5 - Posted - 12/08/2009: 15:56:18
Not sure what you mean BH, I don't play a banjitar. My banjo is tuned traditionally.
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