tomberghan - Posted - 10/20/2009:  22:11:34

---

There is a long thread just now winding down that is on the subject of Listening to fiddlers to become a better banjoist. (Titled “Advice of the Masters”) And many players thought this was excellent advice. And I agree.

But . . . I'll say something perhaps controversial . . . that may start a new thread.

It appeared to me in the aforementioned thread that the main objective many banjo players had was to both learn melodies and variations as fiddlers played them, and, to pick up the correct feel for said melodies.

Well, yeah that works . . . but there is this old technology that works REALLY well. Fiddlers have been using it for years (even centuries!).

It is called staff notation.

Why not learn how to read music? Most fiddlers know how. There are several great fiddle books on the market that have hundreds of tunes in them (Mel Bay for instance). And the price for these books is still around $15 each I believe (a good bargain).

Reading a single line of music in treble clef is easy folks, and OT fiddle music doesn’t have much range, nor does it jump around a lot, nor does it have a lot of modulations, and only rarely has accidental notes. Learn to read music! It is barely more difficult than reading tablature.

One of the main reasons fiddlers tend to be able to improvise melodic variations better than most banjoists is for the simple reason that they know what notes they are playing!

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/20/2009:  22:21:09

---

Tom, I know you're musically literate, and I'm not. I've depended on my ear these many years of playing. I know that reading music would lead the way to lots of tunes. It's better than tab (which I don't read either). I don't have any trouble with variations. I listen to fiddlers to learn fiddle tunes as played. I'm not sure I trust whoever writes 'em out. Now, should I have learned to read when I started? Probably. But my childhood problems learning to read when I tried to learn piano and got flummoxed by the "black keys" drove me away from reading music. That's the way it goes.

Bill

tomberghan - Posted - 10/20/2009:  22:58:36

---

I understand Bill. And after all, there many fine musicians who do not read. No argument there!

I could not read music at all until I was 18.

I had been playing since the age of 9 and even playing professionally. Then I decided I wanted to attend a music conservatory. I auditioned reasonably well but I had to confess to not being able to sight read. I mean, I knew the “every good boy does fine” thing, but little more than that! The department head thought it over and said “I will let you in the school but only on the condition that you have two tutors a week in addition to your regular lessons. You have a LOT of catching up to do. All of your classmates have been reading since they were children.”

So, I had to learn in a hurry. Now 40 years later I still don’t sight-read a well as I would like to. But OT fiddle music; that’s easy. Like I say, it is not complex rhythmically (mostly just quarter notes and eighth notes), with very little syncopation. The fiddlers tend to mostly play in just D and A, and the modes are easy, and, the OT tunes don’t span a very wide range (you don’t have to read a lot of ledger lines).

I’m not suggesting this for seasoned players like you who already know many tunes, know their instrument, and have learned to improve well many years ago.

But for people like me who just started playing clawhammer, staff notation opens a lot of doors very quickly. And, one of the first things that I found confusing was that in listening to banjoists, I could hardly recognize a tune from some of their versions. The music sounded great as a solo piece, but in some cases over half of the melody was missing!

So, I started reading the fiddle tunes and making my own versions. Plus, it is fun reading all of the variations. Some of these tunes are centuries old and there are dozens of variants of some of the older tunes.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/20/2009:  23:29:11

---

Agreed Tom. One of the finest players I know, Rick Anderson, learns all his tunes from notation and his playing of fiddle tunes is simply wonderful. Unfortunately for all of us, his job and family responsibilities mean he doesn't play so much these days, but he certainly belies the myth that learning from written music hurts ones playing. Your point about recognizing tunes played on the banjo is exactly why I have more fiddle recordings than banjos. Incidentally, I'm awed by your lute playing (Thanks to R.D. Lunceford for pointing it out.) and plan to listen to much more of it.

Bill

janolov - Posted - 10/20/2009:  23:43:39

---

I learned notation when I was young, and I don't regret it. I learned the basics from Pete Seeger's book and made deeper studies in the municipal library. I use both tablature and notation as a complement to the ear

I have Dave Brody's Banjopickers Fakebook and Fiddler's Fakebook, and when learning a new tune I rather look in the Fiddler's Fakebook rather than the Banjopicker's.

.

Jan-Olov

stringbeaner - Posted - 10/21/2009:  01:40:40

---

I agree with Tom, reading music opens hundreds of doors quickly which otherwise might take years to open for a non-reader. BUT, I also think is a path for the young or retired person. It takes time to learn the notes and apply them to your instrument.

Tab came about a couple hundred years ago mainly because all those old lute teachers had their own tunings and methods for notation. I had a lute for a while and had a hell of a time finding music for it. A lute might also have anywhere from ten to many more strings.

Hmmm! Kind of wandered off-course fer a minnit, there. Oh, yeah! Reading musical notation for a banjo is really only profitable if you're going to stay in 1 or 2 tunings. Most of the players I know use at least 4 and many use a lot more. Well, you can write the notes down on a staff but the player then has to figger out which fret that note conforms to on his banjo for the tuning they're using. If you're playing in G and switch to D modal, the notes on the staff will remain the same while they will fall on different frets on your banjo depending on the tuning you are using.

Tab, on the other hand, tells you (usually) what tuning to be in, tells you which left hand finger to use on which fret and has room to indicate which right hand digit to use.

Stringbeaner

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/21/2009:  02:07:57

---

I read musical notation (treble clef), tab, and I play by ear.
I certainly agree that learning to read music can only help and can
open many doors for you that remain closed otherwise.

The first banjo tutors utilized musical notation.
One advantage to tab in OT banjo playing is that
it makes it possible to play in alternate tunings instantly.
The use of music in conjunction with the various tunings would make it necessary to relearn the fingerboard for each tuning. The reason that musical notation was adequate in the early tutors was that they employed only one tuning (Though the pitch varied, the intervals between the strings remained constant).

Tom wrote:
"But OT fiddle music; that’s easy. Like I say, it is not complex rhythmically (mostly just quarter notes and eighth notes), with very little syncopation."

It is true that the transcriptions of fiddle tunes are as mentioned, however that brings up another point. The transcriptions may indicate little rhythmic complexity, however the tunes are rarely played as written. The stylistic elements are very rarely notated. This makes listening very important. It is the only way to become familiar with the nuances that turn ink-on-paper to living, breathing, traditional music. Additionally, before you can turn the fiddle line into a *traditional* clawhammer setting you must be familiar enough with the way the clawhammer style interprets the melody. Once you are familiar with the style and its repertoire of techniques you will be in a situation where you can work at distilling the tune down to its essence and then build it back up into a banjo version.

Having said all of that, Tom is advocating for the ability to read music and I agree wholeheartedly. It is a skill that puts one at a distinct advantage. I am only reiterating the point that listening is essential because music (and tab for that matter), being a visual depiction of an aural art is necessarily deficient.

One good point is that when you play only by ear you have access to only what you hear. The ability to read notation puts literally thousands of tunes at your fingertips.

Tom, a number of us have enjoyed your lute music. There is the probably erroneous belief among ear-players that notation readers, especially classical musicians tend to note-for-note performances. I know that interpretation comes into play, but could you enlighten us as to what degree and what the nature of individual interpretaion is in that genre?



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you'll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

---

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 10/21/2009 02:12:51

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/21/2009:  02:48:57

---

I'm still pretty divided about musical notation and the 5 string. I have the experience of being one of the first Classical Guitar teachers to use tab as a standard tool in my lessons. I had never run into tab before reading Pete Seeger's book. But I quickly became a convert, and my teacher, although he never was fully comfortable with tab was also using some in his lessons. As I began to take on guitar students I started using tab for all the players interested in folk and rock n roll. With classical guitar I used a lot less tab, but I did have many left hand exercises I put in tab because it was so much easier to see how these exercises work in tab. Here is an example that is all on one string

9,8,7,6, 8,7,6,5, 7,6,5,4, 6,5,4,3, 5,4,3,2, 4,3,2,1 it's fairly easy to see that the fingers start all down on adjacent frets play in the order P,R,M,I. When the Index finger is reached, the other three come back to their position and the hand is moved a fret down the neck and the exercise repeats.

This one:
9,7,8,6, 8,6,7,5, etc plays in the order P,M,R,I and then moves down to repeat

this can be quite daunting to figure out in musical notation. Nine frets up the first string of a guitar where every note is on a ledger line or the spaces between, is pretty confusing especially when dealing with the blinding array of accidentals,

In the 50 years since then I've come to the conclusion tab is the better system for fretted instruments, and can better communicate what a fretted instrument does to the player, but that anyone who wants to seriously play with others really should learn music notation. You can't really communicate to someone who sings using banjo tab. I have tunes written that way for banjo players, but even guitarists can't read those melodies without doing some work.

I am not a great music reader - I'm dyslexic. I don't read anything well. But I can usually follow a fiddle tune in notation pretty well, and can do a lot of the work I need to do without resort to serious labour. However, I can pick the melody off a record faster and more easily. Furthermore the records provide me with exactly the version I want while many of those collections are either simplified to the point of boring, or full of errors. We do have a couple fiddle books around the house but they are rarely used. I'm close to 40 years into my old time journey and have yet to find any fiddle tune collection that was worth the price.

My wife goes a step further. She takes her versions from the CDs she likes, and puts them through slow downer so she can pick up the exact bowings - something the books simply ignore. She then plays duets with the records. The only "notation" she uses is the tune titles.

One of the pointless facts I find interesting is that mandolin players who take up the fiddle think that fiddle tablature is great stuff, but fiddlers I've met who don't play mando have little use for fiddle tab.

So there you have it - What the hell did I just say? I really am of two minds on music notation. I guess I feel that with all the tabs floating around these days I don't see much reason to waste time puzzling out music when there are people like me writing banjo tabs. My goal is to tab out every fiddle tune I can play. Only exhaustion and death will slow me down. There are others doing the same thing. It isn't like it was when I first started playing contratunes and had to get ALL my versions out of fiddle books. Contra tunes were beyond my "Comfort" and Assurence" zone at the time - Eor all I know they may still be. There must be a hundred tunes tabbed now for every one that was tabbed in 1972. And I had to walk 5 miles a day to school in the snow, uphill, every day - in my bare feet, through alligator swamps. You kids today just got it so dang easy.

http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

---

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 10/21/2009 15:14:42

ZEPP - Posted - 10/21/2009:  05:40:23

---

I had to learn to read what I was playing back in the early '60s, as it behooved me to be able to teach reading to my guitar students. I never bothered to teach reading to banjo students for two reasons that present--to my thinking--a chicken-and-egg situation, viz.:

1) Nothing is currently published in standard notation for banjo players, because
2) Banjo players can't read music (and why should they, if nothing is published, and why publish it if no one can read it?)

I can still read (albeit slowly) on guitar and in an open G tuning on banjo, but have made no effort at all to read in the other tunings I play in.

Thus, I find it a useful skill for theory and to aid in understanding the music, but view it mostly as unnecessary for the banjo. It can be useful for learning a basic melody, of course, but I think tablature does equally well at this.

Tab presents its own set of limitations and advantages as I see it. I use it as a means of sending something home with the student. (Lately, we've been having great success with ad hoc videos.) I can write tab pretty quickly and fairly accurately, being able to envision what's being played as I write it; however, I cannot read it worth a hoot, as that's not how I learned to play and my ear is always telling my hands to do something other than what my eyes see on paper...

Cheers,
ZEPP

LyleK - Posted - 10/21/2009:  05:50:36

---

Although I can't sing worth spit, I'm in the choir on this issue. As a former French horn player I had to be able to sight-read bass and treble clef as well as transpose on the fly. So here are three main advantages to learning standard notation:

1. Access to tunes that have been mostly lost from aural tradition - as some examples, see: Hamblen family tunes at: http://www.dearoldillinois.com/hamb...idtunes.html , fife manuals at: http://www.fifedrum.org/resources/music/ , and Ryan's Mammoth Collection (preview at: http://books.google.com/books?id=lJ...e&q=&f=false , and most available in abc notation).

2. Access to a well-defined vocabulary for rhythm (e.g., "four 8th notes" instead of "bump-a-did-dy").

3. The more you know about music the easier it becomes to learn tunes by ear.

On the multiple banjo tunings issue, I'm not sure that is so great of a problem. It just means that you have to learn the equivalencies between fingerings and notes in the different tunings. For gDGDE, aDADE, gCGCD, aEADE, and aEAC#E I can usually get the tunes straight from the standard notation. For less common tunings I might have to write a tab from the staff notation first. Marion Thede ("The Fiddle Book") had a different solution which was to publish staff notation as the tune "sounded" and staff notation for the tune played as if the fiddle were in GDAE tuning (even if it were in, say, AEAE). But OT banjo doesn't really have a standard tuning.

LyleK
http://lylewk.home.comcast.net

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 10/21/2009:  06:00:10

---

I read notation and tab and listen. I also read notation but in various tunings - I just worked at it. The way I do it is to be aware of the intervals - 'up a fourth, down a second, etc' and pretty soon the new tuning becomes familar.

I also play the lute (www.SongOfTheRose.co.uk for mp3 files and some videos) and can say that there is a LOT of scope for departing from the score. There seems to be a folk knowledge that note players can't play anything other than what is written. That wasn't true of lute players either in the old days or now. You wouldn't get the gig if that was all you could do. And, importantly, it was the same in the 19th century - all the great composers were great improvisers. Even guitar composers like Sor and Aguado expected you to change things - see Aguado's versions of Sor's music for instance. And it has always been the case with the banjo - as much in the 19th century as now.

Rob


www.ClassicBanjoRM.com

WGE - Posted - 10/21/2009:  06:09:57

---

I am slowly learning to read notation for the banjo. The Nashville Old-Time String Band Association is "dominated," for the lack of a better word, by the fiddlers (and so what else is new?!). Many but not all the fiddlers read notation and the new tunes of the month are always presented with standard notation. Likewise, the tune list is available on-line as mp3's and pdf files of the standard notation. I am to the point where it takes 10-15 minutes to "clawhammerize" a simple banjo tab of these fiddle tunes starting with the notation. In the process I am learning the notation for C/D and G/A tunes in double C or D or open G or A tunings. With a little more work I should be able to sight-read these things as long as I can stay at or below the seventh fret. It certainly is true that as time goes by it easier to pick up tunes by ear, but being able to work with standard notation I see as a good thing.

stevel - Posted - 10/21/2009:  06:14:06

---

I had to learn to read standard notation back when I started playing the piano when I was about 5 or 6 years old. Maybe it was just me, but I had no problem learning to read it, in fact, it only took me a few weeks. I also used it when I played the saxophone from 4th - 8th grade. Unfortunately, I got so sick of my school's music teacher that I stopped playing the sax when I entered high school, but that's a story for another time.

When I started playing the banjo a few years back, I used tab. However, with the thousands of old songs out there, I feel knowing how to read music can only be a benefit to someone. A lot of these older songs I've come across only provide you the melody (and sometimes lyrics). But once you know the melody, you're good to go.

banjered - Posted - 10/21/2009:  06:22:40

---

If I have learned anything from my stumblings in banjology, it is that there does not exist a one and only perfect version of a tune. There are just endless versions. To learn a tune, I use it all - notation, tab, recordingS, and finally, whatever version whoever I am playing with is using.

Even in notation, there are so many versions of tunes. A lot of times they don't even agree on the number of measures in a tune. Only once in a great while can I take a tune, such as Shennandoah Falls out of the Portland Collection, and translate that directly into a banjo version that works with the local jam session.

Banjo is FOLK music, not chamber music. As such, it is all over the musical map depending on the background versions and expertise of the player(s). Banjo/fiddle tunes is very much an in-the-moment type of music. It is a far more important skill to be adaptable/flexible in the moment than be able to read notation.

So in regard to banjo music (yes it is MUSIC! ), notation is a useful tool, but not the only way, or even the best way for most folkies. Some people's ears are so much sharper than their reading patience that notation for them is an impediment. I wish I had more of that on-the-spot ability but it all comes back to "whatever works for you." TC

slabounty - Posted - 10/21/2009:  06:23:16

---

I'm with those who feel "it can't hurt". It's just another tool to use in communicating music. Is it perfect? Absolutely not (see RD's post), but there's a lot of information being transmitted there if people will just take a bit of time to look at it.


Scott LaBounty
Orange, CA

fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 10/21/2009:  06:51:15

---

Ditto what Zepp said.

Dean

"Each one's got to have his own style. It's all creamed potatoes, just fixed a little different." -- Benton Flippen

Thor - Posted - 10/21/2009:  07:17:19

---

The software that I use for tab includes staff/notation. As I tab something out, I see the notes on the staff. This allows me to use all the timing tools available to notation and have the tab reflect this. I can also scan in sheet music and convert it to tab with a couple of clicks. This has really helped in my ability to learn to read notation.
http://www.myriad-online.com/en/doc...monydesc.htm

ramjo - Posted - 10/21/2009:  07:26:36

---

All responders on this thread have worthy things to say on the issue. I'm interested in the notion of formalizing what came down to us from musicians sitting knee-to-knee on the front porch or in the barn. I think the tradition was to learn the tunes by ear; that's one reason why, in the tradition, the tune is played for so many repetitions. By the 14th time through, nearly everybody would get it. And because most of us no longer live in the hills (or near a fiddle player even in town), it's a good thing we have recordings to sort of emulate the other members of the band (as Woodchuck's wife does). And since learning styles are different for different folks, it's good we also have the written versions of the music.

The only thing I have to add--and it's probably stating the obvious--is that we can't become so reliant on notation or tab that it dampens our ability to adapt and develop variety in what we play. I know most of the tunes I learn from tab are different from the way other players play them--sometime a little, sometimes a lot. So when playing with others, I'm having to use my ear to hear the adaptations I need to make.

jduke - Posted - 10/21/2009:  07:32:15

---

As I've been reading this thread, I've been thinking about how (in as few words as possible) to say exactly what Tom Clunie has just written.

I read music, but translate to and learn from tab. My ear is the pitts! And yet it is an ear for music that would help me better cope with all of the variations and individual offerings that Tom speaks of, not tab or notation. Tab and notation, both have their place, but it being able to hear and react to what's happning that gives the music feeling.

I love old time music with all of its variations and interputations, no two performances are ever the same and that's what keeps it fresh and exciting. As a banjo player with a poor ear, however, I'd have been better of playing bluegrass. That way, I could learn from tab exactly how Earl played a song in the summer of 69 and know that I'd have the exact version and timing as everybody else!

JD Uke

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/21/2009:  07:42:42

---

I explain to students that there are two ways to read sheet music, not one.

Most folks think you need to learn to sight-read at speed which seems to involve a lot of effort for little return--who do you see reading sheet while they play?

I encourage folks to learn to decipher sheet music instead. The goal isn't reading at speed, nor is it learning a new, unheard song from scratch. The goal is simply to figure out the simple melody to a song you've already heard or may even already have a break to.

Starting with that attitude tends to produce more success.
Note that even if you want to sight read new stuff at speed, you start by deciphering notes, then timing, then reading a lot and voila, it's just like the folks who can read tab at speed even though that wasn't their original goal (but it's amazing what a year or two of practice will do for your skills).

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

---

Edited by - minstrelmike on 10/21/2009 07:43:36

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/21/2009:  07:48:16

---

When I meet people personally, of course I LISTEN to them - we do not exchange papers with written sentences. But because I can READ words, I can learn also from your thoughts here - I am happy to do so.

Well, I read music because it multiplies the source of tunes for me. And also because my two sons read music as they learn to play 1. fiddle and 2. recorder (flute). I need to keep the pace at least with the music the younger one is playing.

Mirek

_________________________________________________________________
Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string):
Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo
Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo
http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatek
Handout for workshops at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944

tomberghan - Posted - 10/21/2009:  09:31:23

---

Wow! This did turn out to be a hot-button – interesting discussion. I would like to make a few comments and then answer R.D.’s question.

First, a comment about the original intention of the post, I think I was not clear enough (sorry).

When I suggested learning staff notation it was for the purpose of learning fiddle tunes. Not writing for the banjo per se.

I think that tablature is the superior technology for capturing what we play on the banjo. And that was why the lute and guitar players in centuries past preferred tablature to staff notation. Not because they couldn’t read staff, but because the staff notation lacked the means to indicate where the music fell upon the fretboard.

Classical guitarists suffer from this problem today. They use staff notation, but to make up for the deficiencies in the notation, they –
• Write the pitches one octave above where they actually sound and write everything in one clef . . . then use LOTS of ledger lines above and below a single clef (never understood the logic there – why not use TWO clefs (staffs) like keyboard players do?).
• Write numbers under or above the notes to indicate which string you are to play (it is of course possible to play the same note on several different strings)
• Write numbers under or above the notes to indicate which finger to use for fretting the pitch. So now you have numbers for two purposes – so you draw little circles around one or the other to make it clear which purpose you intend.

And all of that was exactly why the lutenists and guitarists of olden days gave up on staff notation and created systems of tablature. There were several popular systems but lets have that discussion in another thread if you are really interested.

But back to the intent of my post – I am simply suggesting that if we banjoists learn to read treble clef, then we can go to the same source most of our modern-day fiddler friends do: The collections of fiddle tunes.

I realize that back in 1919 most fiddlers did not read and they played by ear. But that is not what is happening today. I am a proud member of the Fiddle Hangout, and I can tell you that most of them read music and communicate tunes to each other using staff notation. And, they are buying the big collections of fiddle tunes.

So, if you learn to read, even slowly, then you will be able to get at hundreds of fiddle tunes from the same sources as most (not all) that your fiddler pals are accessing: books of music (collections fo fiddle tues).

OK, so just learn to read in Double-C or Open-G. Then you can pick out a tune (even if slowly) and at least have the tune in your ears before you head off for the Saturday night jam session.

And if you are feeling more industrious, you can work out a version for clawhammer and figure out where to place 5th string bell notes, and where to brush, and where to arpeggiate. That is the fun stuff! And if you want to write your BANJO version down, I suggest you use tablature for that.

R.D. asks: “There is the probably erroneous belief among ear-players that notation readers, especially classical musicians tend to note-for-note performances. I know that interpretation comes into play, but could you enlighten us as to what degree and what the nature of individual interpretation is in that genre?”

Yes, you are right on the money R.D. The degree is HUGE. The staff notation leaves out as much as it defines. Usually missing are accents, dynamics, rubato, staccato, legato, and on and on. Sure, one can try to write little instructions all over the music (and many do), but the page starts looking pretty busy very quickly.

So interpretation is a HUGE factor. In my own performance of lute music, I distinguished myself from other players by researching the dances from the 17th century. The simple idea was this “How can you play a gigue, allemande, or pavan if you have never even seen one danced? What is the tempo? Where are the accents? When do the dancers jump? If the musician “artistically” pauses while the dancer is in the air – your dancer isn’t going to be too happy. Gravity is going to pull them back to earth and YOU are not going to be on the beat. So, you are fired . . . we will get someone who can play for dancing!

If a 17th century person were to listen to most modern performances of harpsichord or lute music I think they would not recognize the dances at all. I think they would feel that the music is being butchered! (Ouch - gotta call 'em like I see 'em, right?)

Now our BHO friend Rob MacKillop used to perform with one of the best Baroque-Dancers in the world, Steve Player. And Rob will tell us, I’m sure, what a difference it made in his own interpretations of early music.

Playing dance music for dancers is a great experience and education. And as many of you have pointed out, OT music was by in large NOT created for the performance hall. It was created for the DANCE hall!

The main thing that defies notation is “SWING” or what many people refer to as lilt. The French named it notes inégales (unequal notes). So, just like jazz musicians do, when you read a bunch of eighth notes (for instance), you DON’T play them equally, you make the one note just a shade longer (or shorter) than the following note. It can't really be written, not accurately anyway.

There is a well know French baroque flute treatise by Hotteterre where he basically says “Non-French musicians cannot play our music because the way we play cannot be written down in staff notation” (I am paraphrasing)

Great posts above.
Thanks!
Tom

If any of you would like help learning to read, I will help you to learn, and for free.

---

Edited by - tomberghan on 10/21/2009 09:39:50

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/21/2009:  10:19:49

---

The methods of interpretation and the goal of playing for dancers sounds very familiar. I think it also very instructive that you specifically mention "swing" as I've always thought that was one of the most important things in interpreting OT music.

The opinion of non-French musicians not being able to play that particular music is also interesting. I know that when I was involved in Irish Trad, there was a school of thought that to be an effective player of slow airs one had to speak Irish (Gaelic), the theory being that a knowledge of the rhythms of the language were essential in order to correctly render the music.

Music is the language, style is the accent.
Speaking Gaelic with a Southern accent might be
interesting (or perhaps a curiosity), but it isn't the goal.
Similarly playing Irish tunes like a Texas fiddler ain't really
where it's at either.
*****************************************************

Again, as far as your original point Tom, I'm in favor of having the ability to read music. To what degree one uses it may vary with circumstance, but it is certainly a useful skill. I agree that tab is the better written method for communicating music as applied to specific instruments, but one advantage of musical noataion is that it is not instrument specific.......the players of all treble clef instruments can get a tune from treble clef notation. That means assuming they can read music, players of banjo, guitar, mandolin, flute, accordion, fiddle, etc., etc., can all access the tune from the same piece of music. A banjo tab can only be used by banjo players.


R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you'll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 10/21/2009:  11:02:37

---

Yes, I did accompany one of the best baroque dancers in the world, and what a great experience it was. He taught me one important thing - playing for a dancer does not actually mean playing 'in time', and a lot of musicians are confused about this. A good dancer is an expressive dancer, so there is room for holding back and puhing forward, not just playing a metronomic beat. How much baroque dancing relates to Old Time folk dancing would be an interesting research thesis, but I imagine they were pretty close.

However, for what its worth, the biggest influence on me came from working with traditional-music singers, who never read a note of music. And they were insistant on phrasing which an instrumentalist or even a dancer just wouldn't recognise. So it all gets confused. But this way off topic! Well, the point is that reading should not make you play in an unmusica


www.ClassicBanjoRM.com

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 10/21/2009:  11:03:55

---

oops - hit the wrong button!

Well, the point is that reading should not make you play in an unmusical way - that's just bad musicianship...


www.ClassicBanjoRM.com

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/21/2009:  11:16:15

---

Good discussion, not much I can add.

I treat notation as simply yet another tool in the toolbox.

I play CH mostly by ear...and love working with a fiddler to learn new tunes. However, if I'm working on a solo piece, I tend to start with TAB to learn the tune and then move off on my own when I have the basic tune in hand. I can't say as I've ever seen notation for CH...although it existed well before our trad CH did. Every single historical "minstrel-era", stroke-style tune we play comes from notation.

In the trad arena, it is considered poor form to use sheet music. Chord charts are pretty common (or tune lists with chords shown). In the Classic banjo world, it is considered 'normal' to have the sheet-music in front of you (notation...but I use TAB). Generally, trad tunes have only A and B parts (though there are a few three and four parts tunes) and generally 8 measures to a part (16 total). In the Classic banjo world, having 3 parts is standard (with a key change in the trio) and the tunes often consist of 100+ measures. With that level of complexity, I simply run out of brain cells...I need the sheet music to help me recall the tune and keep me on track. In that case, I'm not really "sight-reading", more like "scanning".

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/21/2009:  12:06:46

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

The opinion of non-French musicians not being able to play that particular music is also interesting. I know that when I was involved in Irish Trad, there was a school of thought that to be an effective player of slow airs one had to speak Irish (Gaelic), the theory being that a knowledge of the rhythms of the language were essential in order to correctly render the music.

---

The same problem exists between my mother language (Czech) and English.

In Czech verses we count all the syllables - both the stressed ones and the unstressed. It means that between two stressed syllables there is EXACT NUMBER of unstressed syllables (depending whether the verses are in iamb, trochee, dactyl etc.).

I have read that in English verses there are stressed syllables, but the number of unstressed syllables between them may be more variable - they just have to fit into the given amount of time between two stressed syllables.

That is why the English verses may seem more "irregular" for Czech reader, and in opposite, Czech verses of English songs change them to too regular, automated pieces.

Shortly - trying to match the English text and the Czech text of the same song produces different solo part.

Mirek

_________________________________________________________________
Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string):
Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo
Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo
http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatek
Handout for workshops at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944

tomberghan - Posted - 10/21/2009:  14:00:25

---

Rob Writes >>>However, for what its worth, the biggest influence on me came from working with traditional-music singers, who never read a note of music. And they were insistent on phrasing which an instrumentalist or even a dancer just wouldn't recognise. So it all gets confused.<<<
Ah – well now – then we get into a whole other matter Rob. (I agree with you by the way)

As an example, here is a very well known Clawhammer performance of the old tune “Loch Lomond.” (I suspect Rob knows this song well as lives in Edinburgh Scotland) It is played very well and this performance from years ago actually brought Clawhammer to many people for the first time and helped bring Clawhammer to a wider audience.
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l31MSpojWTA

And although that performance is very good and very enjoyable, it lacks being “historically informed.” So when we hear the song being sung by artists who carry the culture of the song in their own cultural experience, we get what I will argue is much likely truer to the original intent of the composer / lyricist.
Check THIS out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXGV...ture=related


Of course I do not know this to be a fact (that this is how the composer intended it to be), but the second performance feels right (feels correct).

So, after hearing The Corries sing it, I now have a hard time really accepting Steve’s clawhammer version . . . as enjoyable as it might be. Perhaps this is a small example of what Rob is trying to tell us?

Regardless it does make the point that there are many elements of expression and interpretation that cannot be written in staff notation.

Paul Roberts - Posted - 10/21/2009:  14:33:27

---

Great topic, excellent replies, all.

In my teens - when I got into guitar and banjo - it felt truly liberating to get away from reading music after a childhood of classical music training; to be able to play by "feel" and not have the intermediary of written music.

Later I picked up a mandolin and discovered the books (with huge numbers of tunes) that Tom is referring to. I found it was easy to learn how to sight-read standard music notation on mandolin. The mandolin fretboard and tuning in 5ths make things very logical. This way I could charge through huge amounts of material very quickly, placing a mark by the ones that were immediately appealing to me so I could come back and incorporate them into my repertoire. For me, developing a mandolin repertoire was an end in itself but if I wanted to figure out a tune on the 5-string, I could transfer it over pretty easily because I already had a sense of it. This is a great way to find more obscure tunes that I might not come across listening to records.

Now I use a tenor banjo or 4-string cello banjo when I'm perusing notations. I almost never pick up a 5-string to get a tune from notation. Here I think the comments about the difficulty of learning to read in different tunings are well taken.

On the vicissitudes of 5-string tunings, notation and tablature:
In the software program I have, TablEdit, you can tell it what banjo tuning to use, then write the tune in notation and the tab will correspond to the banjo tuning you have chosen. You may have to tweak the tab depending on where you want the notes to fall but, at least, you've got it in that tuning.

Tom, thanks for the bringing your musical expertise to the fore with this topic. It's going to be wonderful to hear where your banjo journey takes you. I'm sure you'll be making a highly worthwhile contribution to the field.

Pablito

http://www.banjocrazy.com/ all Gold Tone instruments for sale

http://www.youtube.com/user/strumstering my YouTube channel

---

Edited by - Paul Roberts on 10/21/2009 14:39:24

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/21/2009:  15:36:15

---

I have a completely different take on what is wrong with Martin's Loch Lomond, and it never even gets to the point of understanding the culture behind the tune. He doesn't comprehend the tune as a tune. It is a series of "fancies" with little regard to the actual tune. There is just nothing at all musical about this performance. Martin is showing off His ability to clawhammer, getting all the right notes and decorations. Perhaps he was new to clawing at the time, or perhaps he had not yet blossomed into a musician - for all I know he may still not be a musician.

There is more than one way to interpret Tommy Jarrell's statement "He knows a thousand tunes and can't play ery a one." this is a perfect example of that statement. Martin is playing the banjo - not Loch Lomond.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

ramjo - Posted - 10/21/2009:  15:44:35

---

I agree with Tony. Neither Loch Lomand nor Simple Gifts. I like to think of Steve Martin as a great comedian and actor; but he really leaves me flat as a writer and musician.

tomberghan - Posted - 10/21/2009:  15:56:11

---

Old Woodchuck you crack me up!

I reminds me of a time years ago sitting in club listening to this blues band with a bunch of blues friends. The band featured a guitarist who had amazing technique (which was all he had) and knew what seemed like every blues and jazz lick in the book.

Then Jim Mesi, this GREAT guitarist from Portland Oregon leans over the table at me and in his gravely voice says to me "You know . . . I've heard a lot of blues in my day . . . and it DON'T sound like that!" (and of course he was right) BURN!!! I will be a gentleman and won't say who the "technocrat" was, but I heard him again recently (20 years later) and he had greatly improved.

By the way . . . I was expecting y'all to comment on how beautiful the Corries' Loch Lomand was rather than on how bad Steve's version was. Did you like their Loch Lomand?

---

Edited by - tomberghan on 10/21/2009 15:59:51

ramjo - Posted - 10/21/2009:  16:28:57

---

Well, yes. The Corrie's version soars because they embody the tune. Of course they play and sing the notes of the melody, but the presentation is full of feeling. There are notation marks to suggest this, but really, it comes from the musician digesting the music and issuing it back through his pores. It would be hard not to respond with feeling when you see and hear music like this.

ScottP - Posted - 10/21/2009:  17:07:01

---

Tom, great thread!
I agree that both staff notation and tab are useful tools but I also think it's very important to understand their limitations. Old Woodchuck mentioned Tommy Jarrell's statement "He knows a thousand tune and can't play a one." I also remember hearing someone say that Old-Time is full of very accurate inaccuracies that can't be conveyed by tab or notation. Notation is a great way to jump start the process of learning a tune but it can't replace listening (for years) for learning and being able to play the music.

When I first started playing, I played mandolin and tenor banjo and along with learning tunes by ear I used both tab and notation to learn new tunes. Then when I started playing clawhammer banjo I used tab to help with that too. I would read from the books to learn where to put my fingers then I would go out and play with other people to learn how to make them sound like music.

I think it's wise to use all the tools available including tab and notation. Just don't let them become a crutch. One of my favorite things about playing Old-Time music is being able to meet another musician, sit down and listen to them play a tune a few times and then be able to join in and make music together.

Scott P

www.phillipsbanjos.com

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/21/2009:  21:26:52

---

I hadn't heard it yet when I commented - but is is excellent.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

RG - Posted - 10/21/2009:  23:14:40

---

One thing I would point out (maybe it's been said already), is that for OT fiddling, staff notation doesn't give any indication of bowing...and this can change a tune dramatically in my opinion...look at Jeff Titon's book on Kentucky fiddling...tons of cool tunes in standard notation with nary an indication of bowing...play the tunes as noted and then listen to the recordings...they are VASTLY different...holding a long note and then a short, or changing a traditional long up-up ending to long-longer (listen to Joe Thompson) can change the entitre complexity of a tune and if the banjo player isn't in time with that, it gets pretty nasty in my opinion...





******************************************************
"It's a league game Smokey..."

---

Edited by - RG on 10/21/2009 23:21:13

fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 10/22/2009:  08:59:22

---

I learn the way I learn. And it's by getting in there with fiddle players and learning new tunes. Learning by ear has served me well to date. I don't expect to change in that regard. But to each his own.

Dean

"Each one's got to have his own style. It's all creamed potatoes, just fixed a little different." -- Benton Flippen

---

Edited by - fretlessinfortwayne on 10/22/2009 09:00:42

tomberghan - Posted - 10/22/2009:  10:02:56

---

>>>One thing I would point out (maybe it's been said already), is that for OT fiddling, staff notation doesn't give any indication of bowing<<<

Um . . . well . . . that isn't true. (Sorry) Violinists do have notation for bowing and have had for centuries just as wind-instrument-players have notation for breathing and guitarists have notation for plucking, etc. And for all instruments, there are notations for staccato, legato, etcetera.

But, it isn't a big deal. If you guys don't want to read, then don't read. I mostly pick out tunes by ear myself! I mean if I need sheet music to figure out "Little Liza Jane" then, well, you know . . . (flush!) The original jist of the thread was how can we, as banjo players, learn fiddle melodies and variations. That's all.

Reading is just another tool as several people have said. I would NEVER advocate not learning to play by ear. But I will also never tell anyone "Reading is dumb, just play strictly by ear." But if they don't want to, I believe that is their personal choice. There are plenty of people in the world who speak perfectly well, even eloquently, and can't read a single word. But I think most people still find much benefit in reading the written word. I certainly do not think less of anyone who cannot read. And as I mentioned, I am not the best sight reader myself!

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  10:25:39

---

Y'all are nuts. This is the best historical interpretation of "Loch Lomond"...the last minute is obviously the author's own variation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCSe_vc9zL4

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

tomberghan - Posted - 10/22/2009:  11:08:14

---

Being a former resident of New Orleans I of course LOVE Louis Prima! And I see you live in Huntsville, so you are practically right next door!

Mm . . . well, this clip kind of makes the point about how interpretations get corrupted over time. Most Americans DO in fact think of Loch Lomand as a bright and merry olde tune. That is because we do not know the song's story of the war, of the killing and death, and the misery and heartbreak. (Wow, that really harshes my mellow)

BUT, Louie's version DOES make a PERFECT example that you can't write everything down. I would not want to even try to reduce that to the written page!

That was awesome!
Thanks Marc!

jojo25 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  11:29:24

---

as I recall, John Hartford learned to read music rather late in life and he found it to be a revelation...as I remember the story

it is a tool....but it is not necessary to do the OT music we love....I read...very slowly...and it helps on occasion...and confounds me on occasion

I find it best to learn when I have...

1. a good version of a fiddle tune on a recording...
2. at least some experience in having tried to play said tune live with a fiddler who knows the tune
3. some tab
4. standard notation
5. multiple opportunities to again play it live with a fiddler to try out possibilities

put all 5 of those tools together and you can do mental cross checking, adding, deleting, imbellishing, simplifying

Don't forget to play all of the quasihemidemisemiquavers!!
Drop thumbs, not bombs

Joe

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/22/2009:  13:37:18

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomberghan

Being a former resident of New Orleans I of course LOVE Louis Prima! And I see you live in Huntsville, so you are practically right next door!

---

We get down there occasionally for the Jazz Fest...card-carrying members of "The New Leviathan Oriental Foxtrot Orchestra" fan club. We go to Cafe du Monde and then split for Lafayette, where the food is.

quote:

---

Mm . . . well, this clip kind of makes the point about how interpretations get corrupted over time. Most Americans DO in fact think of Loch Lomand as a bright and merry olde tune. That is because we do not know the song's story of the war, of the killing and death, and the misery and heartbreak. (Wow, that really harshes my mellow)

---

Glad you saw that in there. For most people who survived WWII and the Big Band era, the swing versions are indeed it (as a boomer, I survived listening to my parent's albums of this stuff...and grew up loving it). That there are versions and variations means that the melody is catchy and well suited for genre-juggling. Just because one performance doesn't crank your tractor doesn't mean that the version is bad...it is simply different.

quote:

---

BUT, Louie's version DOES make a PERFECT example that you can't write everything down. I would not want to even try to reduce that to the written page!

---

No sh*t. I don't think I'd want to attempt to convert Louie's version to CH by ear either.

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

deuceswilde - Posted - 10/22/2009:  14:34:24

---

Because I always have to be that guy, I would like to point out that... We keep referring to the banjo as a folk instrument. I suppose that it was when it was a gourd played by slaves on plantations.

As soon as it got in the hands of professionals in popular culture it lost its folk credentials.

Soon after, around mid-19th century, notation was written for it. Its hard to learn by ear from recordings when there are none.

Mid-late 19th, notation for the banjo became the norm and continued until it stopped being a popular instrument. That is the key, popular (were taking five strings). I don't doubt the nostalgic images of porches and barns that we conjure up for the sake of folksy credibility. People trading tunes in the rural parts of the country. I bet that today, sitting in some "isolated" community are two teenage boys with electric guitars teaching each other the newest guitar riffs.

I stand solid on the fact that the banjo, for the majority of its existence in modern form, has been a popular instrument more than a folk instrument.

As to the actual subject at hand. About a month and a half ago I swore off TAB. Quit cold turkey. Two hours of playing scales later I could pick through one line early banjo pieces in "A" and "E." A week of playing those and I added pieces with harmony. I still have trouble with minor and odd keys. Anything over 7th position gives me fits. But it is not that difficult.

All the time I wasted transcribing notation to tab, had it been spent learning to read, I'd be able to sight anything to speed right now.

I used to make up all sorts of excuses as to justify why reading was not necessary.

I was kidding myself. My english vocabulary is very limited, I don't plan on having those same limitations placed on my music.

We all agree that the common use of TAB is a recent adaption. Almost all music written in modern tab (unless otherwise stated) will fall under copyright laws.

Correction, not thousands of banjo pieces published in notation, but tens of thousands at least, all copyright free and ripe for the picking.

It is obvious that I don't make any money at this based on my next statement...

Learn to read notation in order to kick the music industry and copyright laws in the teeth! Because notation is not commonly taught on popular instruments for hobbyists, and has been all but abandoned in current method books, we have forced ourselves to rely on recordings and books of recent publication, we have fallen into a trap. We have lost the ability to play the public domain music in its PD form. We have to purchase transcript forms or recordings that most likely have been changed to put them in copyright protection. If we all could learn songs from notation, music publishers would have to be more creative than just producing books of PD songs in newly copyrighted arrangements.

So I say, stick it to the man and learn to read music.

The "not-for-profit performance rights organizations" that go around to coffee shops and small venues to demand licensing fees (rhymes with protection money) don't want you to read music either.

-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

devoall - Posted - 10/22/2009:  16:26:58

---

I find that just learning the basics of reading standard notation, really helps you to play songs you see in old songbooks. At least the melody, which is really important if you are going to be singing those old songs as well.

I have a copy of the Oak Publications book "hard-hitting songs for hard-hit people" it's a collectiion of folk songs compiled by Alan Lomax, with written introductions to each song by Woody Guthrie, and transcribed by Pete Seeger. It such a great book and a wealth of old songs

I don't know about 90% of the songs in the book but by just reading the very basic notation, I can figure out how they sound. This is great.

just learning a LITTLE sight reading can open up the doors for you like so many have said before me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------" Take it easy, but take it."--Woody Guthrie

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/22/2009:  20:21:31

---

I've worked with dancers too - not just contras and squares. When I played flamenco the dance and the guitarist had to arrange the duets very carefully. I was still pretty young then and have to admit that I never was very confident playing flamenco for singers and dancers. I always felt that my abilities (or lack thereof) were holding them back despite all the compliments I got.

Years later I began to figure out why everyone liked to work with me. While I am nothing great as a musician, I do know how to listen and watch for the signals that need to pass from one to another at all times. Since those days I've run into a lot of musicians who simply operate in their own way and no other. It can be terribly hard to play along with some people. One of the reasons I stress playing with others, is because I think this is probably the most effective way to learn to play - period. If you know how to pay attention to the tune and to other musicians, you can probably play and relate to your audience at the same time.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

Penchaser - Posted - 10/22/2009:  20:55:06

---

I read standard notation but never really applied it to banjo. Now it makes sense to explore some other avenues. Can anyone recommend a good collection of fiddle tunes in standard notation that would be a good reference for a banjo player?

Bob
_____________________________________________________________________________
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

tomberghan - Posted - 10/22/2009:  21:25:39

---

[quote]Originally posted by Penchaser

I read standard notation but never really applied it to banjo. Now it makes sense to explore some other avenues. Can anyone recommend a good collection of fiddle tunes in standard notation that would be a good reference for a banjo player?

I asked your question on the Fiddle Hangout. These books were all recommended by our fiddler friends. They are all reasonably priced books.

• Mel Bay The Phillips Collection of American Fiddle Tunes Vol 1 (262 tunes)

• The Fiddler's Fakebook. 274 tunes

• Ozarks Fiddle Music, by Drew Beisswenger and Gordon McCann, published by Mel Bay, has 308 tunes in it, thirty-seven of which are on a CD

• If you're interested in Midwestern fiddle tunes, a good source would be the Dear Old Illinois book with accompanying CDs. There are 3 CDs that have recordings of every tune that is written out in the book, recorded as being played by the elder generation of fiddlers in IL (like Harvey "Pappy" Taylor and Noah Beavers and dozens more). All you have to do is Google "DOI".

• "THE COMPLETE FIDDLE TUNES I EITHER DID OR DID NOT LEARN AT THE TRACTOR TAVERN" by Gene Silberberg

• Ryan's Mammoth Collection (same tunes as Coles 1000), published by Mel Bay, facsimile of 1883 edition, about $15

Hey - off topic here - but reading the forums on the FHO, I just saw a video of Michael Cleveland (fiddler) . . . that guy is some kind of fiddle god! Holy Smokes!!!

---

Edited by - tomberghan on 10/22/2009 21:42:27

brokenstrings - Posted - 10/22/2009:  22:47:10

---

I read standard notation (none too fluently), lute tablature and banjo tablature (which is pretty similar). One book of banjo tablatures included the melody in standard notation, which was invaluable. Why? Well, suppose you don't know the melody or need refreshing on it. How are you going to play the blamed thing if you don't know the melody?

As to whoever asked why guitar music is written on treble clef an octave above true pitch, with oodles of ledger lines: Julian Bream, who plays both lute (full staff) and guitar, said in an interview that he sometimes wrote out a guitar part in true pitch (grand staff, treble and bass clefs) to understand it better.

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

WVBanjoBoy - Posted - 10/23/2009:  05:49:47

---

Yes, I can read music, but not enough to hurt my playing!

"Don't play it any faster than you can sing it"
- - Dear Old Dad Costello - -