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kidtulsa - Posted - 10/14/2009: 12:10:41
Hey there, and thanks in advance for any help.
I'm looking for any advice y'all might have in my search for a tenor banjo.
I'd be playing jazz and swing on it, and would like to build a good repertoire of New Orleans stuff as I'm down there a few times a year gigging and would like to sit in with some local musicians.
I like a warm sound and larger necks, and would prefer a vintage instrument from the 20's.
Let's put a cap of $2500 on the banjo.
What would y'all recommend? Any suggestions on what to look for?
Again, my thanks!
Pete
Edited by - gottasmilealot on 01/11/2010 09:38:01
pernicketylad - Posted - 10/14/2009: 14:15:00
Don't overlook the Paramounts....can be warm...very popular in Ireland....Vegas too.
There are three types of people in the world.....those who can count and those who can't!
kidtulsa - Posted - 10/14/2009: 14:32:51
Huh... very interesting! I'm surprised in an ignorant kind of way that Gibson tenors weren't first on the list... Just curious, do certain tenor banjo manufacturers have a distinct, definable tone? Example; in the archtop guitar world, Epiphones are different sounding boxes than Gibsons, boxier and fuller in tone and thus great for old swing rhythm work (whereas Gibsons, IMHO, have a better single-line or chord melody sound). Can the same type of classification be attributed to tenors? Thanks again for your thoughts -- very informative!
Pete
beezaboy - Posted - 10/14/2009: 17:32:54
They say a Bacon & Day Silver Bell (a #1 is good) from 1928 to 1930
with the reinforced neck is the best vintage tenor money can buy all things
being equal (condition, originality, straight neck, low action). A vintage
instrument is, afterall, a real old (70-80 yr.) used piece of equipment and
I have not seen many that did not require work at least on niggling issues.
Every blue moon or so you can luckily fall into an untouched vintage instrument
that plays well (frets and fingerboard not too worn), has low action and is fun to play because it sounds good. Most have too high action problems. Old skin
heads are not the best either. So, IMO although they are expensive a new tenor
banjo is best. No problems...just play. However, for a nice warm tone one of the
Epiphone Recording banjos (an A is good) is a nice instrument if you can find one.
There are many Paramounts in circulation but they are a matter of taste. Then, if you are set on vintage you really can't beat a Vega Vegaphone (Vega Professional) from the late 20's for price and quality. They often go on ebay for $665 to $800.
Me, I play a 2003 Deering Vega Celtic Wonder and really like it. I also have several vintage instruments but they can't compare to the trouble free Deering. Hope this
editorial helps. IMO vintage is overrated for playing. They are great pieces of art.
Beezaboy
neplusultra - Posted - 10/14/2009: 17:43:54
Kid...the issue with Gibsons in generally price related. Sure, they sound good, but for some dang reason some guy named Earl decided they were the best thing since sliced bread and ever since folks have been buying them at ridiculous prices and slapping new necks on them.
In the four-string world we tend to think a little more independently so, despite the fact that Eddie played Vegas, Harry played Paramounts in the 20s and Gibsons in the 60s, Perry played Bacons and Buddy plays Omes, we realize that these guys played what they got for free and we understand that they knew how to have them set up to their liking.
So, if you're looking for something to play, not collect, you will likely find great options in your price range among vintage B&Ds 1 - 3 (higher numbers would exceed your range), Vega Vox I (again Vox III and IV likely to be too expensive), non-Vox Vegas, Paramounts A - C or perhaps a used Ome or Richelieu. All are excellent instruments.
The classification you speak of in guitars is a little less profound in the banjo world as there are fewer variables. The head (soundboard for us) is replaced every year or two and all come from the same manufacturers. Other things like bridges and strings are also easily changed. By design, unlike guitars, all banjos are built to cut through an orchestra without amplification. Getting varied sounds, brighter, warmer or softer tones is the work of the artist not the instrument.
kidtulsa - Posted - 10/14/2009: 19:46:18
Hey, thanks again. Being a guitar player by trade, coming into this banjo thing can be a little confusing! That Vega Professional looks great, and certainly in a price range that will support marital bliss (always a consideration). I really appreciate the info -- Pete
banjopaolo - Posted - 10/15/2009: 00:56:03
Hi Kidtulsa
you can find wonderfull prewar instruments on that price range, but frist I think you have to play some of them to make a decision, it's a matter of teste! Find some other banjo players near you and try their banjos or if you can look for a vintage instrument shop (here in italy banjos are not so usual to find.... I don't know where you live!)
For exemple I don't get crazy for Bacon and Day Silverbell models and Paramount like many jazz players do, while I'm in love with my Gibson archtop (original 1930) and love all kinds of Vega (tubaphone in primis but I own a very cheap little wonder as a second instrument and really love it!).
evrything is very personal and with your budget you can choice lot of different instruments...
best
paolo
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/15/2009: 01:32:32
Pete,
A very important question at first hand - which tuning will you use?
I´ve noticed that music is your profession, and that you till now have played mainly guitars.
Will you prefer the DGBE guitar (Chicago) tuning for your "new" tenor banjo or will you go the whole way also learning the CGDA original tenor tuning? If you´re also a mandolin player, the tenor tuning will be easy for you to use.
Most new and vintage banjos are suited for guitar tuning - but tenor tuning is much more demanding - that´s why almost no new and only some vintage banjos can give you an optimal sound, power and playability with this tuning. Regardless that they are all called tenor banjos.
Most vintage banjo brands/models/versions have the same fretboard width - however very different neck profiles - 20s Vega´s are an exception - their fretboards are normally a little wider than the rest - but on the other hand they do have a slim profile.
Most guitar and guitar tuned banjo players have their fingers placed almost perpendicular to the fretboard - mandolin and most tenor tuned banjo players have their fingers placed more parallel to the fretboard. These remarks/facts goes for pro-players mainly.
Tell me your choice of tuning - I´ll then give you some detailed recommendations.
Kindly regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/15/2009: 02:46:18
Pete,
PS!
The finger/fretboard angle is important for the choice of neck width and profile - that´s why I made the remark.
Have you considered your main playing styles - rhythm, chord melody, single string etc. plus the combinations of these?
Take a look at your fingers while playing similar styles on your present string instruments - can you descriebe your favorite angles - if any? Also - have you considered any new fingerings/grips when adding a tenor banjo to your collection.
Also - how are your thumb positions in connection with these?
Many here at BHO will shake their heads over these questions - but I take, that you want a professional apprauch regarding the valuations and recommendations of different banjo brands and models/versions. If so - infos like these are essential.
Regards
Polle
Compass56 - Posted - 10/15/2009: 03:58:32
I wouldn't discount new instruments automatically. There are some fine Omes and Deerings in your price range. The sound and playability of some of these instruments are amazing. For me, the real advantage to new instruments is their reliability. I work a 40-50 hour week at my day job, work part-time all day on Saturdays, and play jobs 3-4 nights a week. I don't have the time, talent, or inclination to tinker with frail vintage instruments to keep them playable. I have to know that, when I take my banjo of the case, it is going to sound great, play easy, and play in tune up and down the neck every time. My Deering Maple Blossom tenor banjo does exactly that--every time.
banjopaolo - Posted - 10/15/2009: 05:54:29
quote:
Originally posted by Compass56
I wouldn't discount new instruments automatically. There are some fine Omes and Deerings in your price range. The sound and playability of some of these instruments are amazing. For me, the real advantage to new instruments is their reliability. I work a 40-50 hour week at my day job, work part-time all day on Saturdays, and play jobs 3-4 nights a week. I don't have the time, talent, or inclination to tinker with frail vintage instruments to keep them playable. I have to know that, when I take my banjo of the case, it is going to sound great, play easy, and play in tune up and down the neck every time. My Deering Maple Blossom tenor banjo does exactly that--every time.
and so does my 1930 Gibson and the other two prewar instruments I own... Modern banjos are anyway a good choice if you like, Ome and Deering are surely the best factories that have a line of four string instruments, many others can build one on order. Once I saw a tenor by Stelling and was really a great instrument (but too expencive in my opinion...) What I find funny is that you can buy a vintage prewar banjo in exellent condition and pay it less than a new instrument: a 1930 Vega profesional can coast about $1000/1300, what you buy from deering or ome at that price? Three years ago I paid less than $3000 for my 1930 Gibson Tb3 while a Stelling was between 3000 and 4000.... Vintage instruments are amazing to my eyes, they have a story! just my opinion...
kidtulsa - Posted - 10/15/2009: 07:36:13
Wow! Thanks for the replies. Exactly the kinds of advice I'd hoped for. As to playing style, I'd like to try and learn/use tenor tuning as opposed to Chicago though it would be nice to have Chicago tuning as an option should I find myself struggling. I am most comfortable on guitar as a swing rhythm player, and would probably approach tenor in the same way (chunking out chords). Any soloing would most likely be single-line, though that's not a priority for me right now on banjo. Left hand-wise, I tend to play more parallel to the fretboard than perpendicular with my fingers as I do use my thumb quite a bit in my chording.
I'll definitely look into the newer manufacturers, and thank you for your suggestions! I've always been more of a 'cheaper vintage guy' and tend look for those instruments which have the stories and the mojo, maybe are a bit beat-up, but without the break-the-bank pricetags. I, out of necessity, view them as beautiful tools of the trade...
Thanks again everybody for chiming in on this! I really appreciate your time.
Pete
kidtulsa - Posted - 10/15/2009: 07:51:27
Oh, and what about plectrum banjos? Because of the longer scale, they have a different sound... would they be good to look at/listen to as well for the types of music I play? Thanks again. Pete
NYCJazz - Posted - 10/15/2009: 09:03:09
I switched from tenor to plectrum a few years ago because I like the sound and the tighter chord voicing.
If your planning on using Chicago tuning the longer scale will be closer to guitar.
Plectrums are not nearly as common as tenors.
Paramounts are fine banjos but the original pot metal casings on the tuners tend to break, and the neck heels sometimes split. I've owned style A, B & C Paramounts and my favorite was the A.
Gibsons I find to be inconsistant in quality and sound plus they are ridiculously overpriced because of the 5-string conversion demand. They changed the hardware on them so many times over the years, it's hard to know what you're getting without spending a good amount of playing time first. On the plus side, you can pimp them out with tons of bells & whistles made for the BG crowd.
A classic jazz banjo is the VegaVox, designed for Eddie Peabody.
The pro players I know (Cynthia Sayer & Eddy Davis) both play OME banjos.
Edited by - NYCJazz on 10/15/2009 09:12:39
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/15/2009: 10:44:11
quote:
Originally posted by neplusultra
... and Buddy plays Omes, we realize that these guys played what they got for free...
Hi Bill -- I can state with some authority that Chuck Ogsbury does NOT give his banjos away. As far as I know... he never has. Not at ODE. Not at OME. And, based on personal discussions with him -- he probably never will. He will give a significant discount to a talented endorser -- but the banjo is not free. (OME does provide promotional banjos to certain contests, as a prize for winning. But even for many of those -- there is often a discounted cost, paid by the promoter.) And I'll let Buddy Wachter speak for himself, on why he plays an OME. For that matter... in my research on David Day, and the Bacon Company. It appears as if he did the same thing. He would discount a banjo and give the player easy payment terms... but they HAD to pay something, to get a B&D. There is a level of pride in knowing that professional players WANT to play your product -- but they don't HAVE to play your product... Not all banjo companies followed that line of reasoning, however. Best- Ed Britt ••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Dogface - Posted - 10/15/2009: 11:35:03
I know you said you prefer vintage from the 20's or 30's but let me add two brands to the mix to try.
Ode was the precursor to Ome and for my money a much better sounding banjo but quite heavy. Ed Britt can tell you all about them :)) They are hard to find in tenor, however.
Second would be Richelieu. You can buy a brand new Golden Eagle for about $2500 and if you are not satisfied you can send it back. I own one I found on ebay recently and it has taken over as my daily player. Tone, fit and finish are perfect and the neck is slim making it faster and easier to play...at least for me.
Thanks,
Mark
If there are no dogs in heaven then when I die I want to go where they went...
Will Rogers
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/16/2009: 10:03:08
In a reply to a different BHO topic:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=159676
Eddy Davis made the following clarification, in reference to my posting on THIS topic --
about Chuck Ogsbury's endorsement policy:
quote:
Originally posted by Greenmeat
... On the thing about OME and endorsements. In 1972 Buck Kelly who lived in Denver introduced me to the OME company. It was owned as a partnership at that time and Chuck was inactive. Ed Woodward was running the company then. By the way he was the only Tenor player in the OME organization. I started playing NAMM shows for them, which were in Chicago and Anaheim at the time. I was provided with Banjos for the Endorsement. At one of the shows in Anaheim I met Howard Alden and got him to play OMEs and do the NAMM shows with me. Some years later when Chuck came back to run the company he stopped endorsements to some musicians. At that time I introduced Chuck to Cynthia and helped her get her blond plectrum with the black chrome. The company stopped making the black chrome some time after that. At that time I was using a plexiglas back and Cynthia opted to use one. ... Eddy
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
beezaboy - Posted - 10/16/2009: 13:25:42
The discussion in nearby post/thread about Setting Up Vintage
Tenor with action too high is what I was referring to above.
Compass 56, I think, has had the same experiences as me
over time. Vintage banjos can cause heartburn. A new one
or newer used one might be a players best friend.
Beezaboy
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/16/2009: 15:17:58
Pete,
I´ll wait a few days before coming up with some recommendations - I´ll wait for most other members burning off their powder.
John,
Please do ask yourself - why on earth does Polle give a lifetime warranty and ditto free services for all vintage US banjos sold by him, but only the standard 2 year reclamation right plus ditto free services for new US banjos?
Maybe it´s because you´re wrong about the sturdiness, stability, general material and crafting quality etc. of most vintage banjos.
Yes - there are exceptions - you´ll hear about these in my later recommendations for Pete - but there are similar exceptions for new banjos as well.
Kindly regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 10/16/2009: 17:00:37
Polle:
Good point. And I would not like to debate someone with your
experience. However, I was responding to a question from a
newcomer to the tenor banjo fraternity who placed a cap of
$2,500 on his first purchase. Therefore, I recommend a newby
for a newby. No banjo issues there, just an opportunity to
learn without extrainious impediments.
Beezaboy
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/17/2009: 01:18:15
John & All
You´re so correct about a new banjo for a newbie - if the newbie has no experienced persons at all to guide/help him.
Pete however is a clever guy - before making any decitions about his future 4-stringer he did go for what hopefully should be the best possible guidance by putting up a question here at BHO.
I´m sure, that we all want helping Pete the best we can, but its important, that the help we´re providing is qualified. That includes a wide non-personal, but still experience based overview of the possibilities and especially the quality grade of these.
I´ll refresh Pete´s inputs somehow:
- tenor banjo for N.O. jazz and swing
- rhythm playing only (at first hand)
- tenor tuning at first hand, secondly Chicago tuning
- warm sound - larger neck
- vintage prefered (but maybe also interested in new)
- 2,5 kilo cap.
- violin style left hand grips (thumbs up at or over the fretboard plus angled fingers)
- what about plectrums for his music styles
I´ll over the weekend put up and post my recommendations - based on these inputs only and by using my experiences and knowledge in a way as mentioned.
Guys - please think about my remarks and do come forward with similar recommendations.
In the end Pete himself will make the decision - LOL! - but we can give him some d----- good tools for his "work".
Kindly regards
Polle
diarmaid - Posted - 10/17/2009: 14:51:18
If youre looking for a vintage instrument i'd recommend looking for in no order at all vega tubaphones/voxes/professionals, epiphone recordings (especially bandmasters) paramounts a,b c and leaders, b&d silver bells, and strombergs (especially the cuppophones), try to play as many as possible of each and make up your own mind as to what you personally prefer soundwise and what you like the feel of...if theyre in good structural and playable condition, i honestly believe you couldn't go wrong with any of them.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/17/2009: 15:55:53
Pete,
I´ll maybe mail you my recommendations offline - some of my remarks could maybe offend some happy banjo owners, who are also BHO members - LOL!
John,
You did for sure put up a topic of general interest - the often high action as found on some vintage banjos.
Firstly - you´ll have to know, that most banjos from the 20s & 30s were built for and shipped from the factory with a ½" bridge. Today players will often want a higher bridge.
Buddy Wachter wrote me the following a few years ago:
quote:
You are so right about the extended fingerboard height and higher bridge giving a better tone. The virtuoso players in the 1920s knew this.
What Buddy in fact told in his mail is, that back in the 20s top-players had their banjos custom built or re-built in order using a high bridge (plus getting a large string/head clearance). Secondly - only 2 factories (I think) started steel reinforcing the necks on banjos back in the mid/late 20s. Bacon by a glued-in steel bar - Gibson by adding an adjustable truss rod. Today it´s hard to find banjos of these 2 brands and years having any problems with bowed and/or warped necks. Vintage banjos of other brands can sometimes be problematic. Examples with previously severely bowed/warped necks have often been repaired/rebuilt in the past - sometimes with an addition of a reinforcement bar or a truss rod. But examples with only a little too much bowed necks are often present. A little bow is desired for obtaining/preserving a lot of overtones - my recommendations are appr. ½ mm for a tenor and max. 3/4 mm for a plectrum - fully stringed and tuned. Bows larger than these sizes will - together with a small neck/pot angle (meant for the ½" factory bridge) - bring out high actions. All vintage banjos restored, refinished and/or set up by me are also being rebuilt in order to raise the fretboard min. 3 mm over the head and to accept a min. 5/8" bridge. These features are essential for pro-playing, as mentioned by Buddy. Do have this in mind - a vintage banjo with a little too much bowed neck and meant for a ½" bridge will normally need a special rebuild in order to obtain a low action - especially if a high bridge is also desired. Kindly regards Polle
diarmaid - Posted - 10/17/2009: 17:09:08
Hi Polle i think the epiphone recordings came with a big non adjustable surgical steel bar in the necks also (which is why theyre so heavy, they have the heaviest necks of any banjos ive ever played).
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/18/2009: 00:30:40
Diarmaid,
I think, that you´re right - however it´s a long since my last meeting with a Recording.
Bacon started reinforcing necks i ´26 - at first hand with thick round steel bars - these necks are as heavy as mentioned by you.
However very soon Bacon shifted to much lighter rectangular bars and at the same time slimmed the neck profiles very much. All Silver Bell´s from ´27 and forward, that I´ve met, have these very slim and lighter necks.
Regards
Polle
diarmaid - Posted - 10/19/2009: 09:42:14
Polle im wanting to add a silver bell to my collection at some point in the future, most likely one of the ones with the ebony fingerboard and headstock (as i prefer the look of these to pearloid)...this looks pretty nice to me, (the no 1 tenor)http://www.findajo.co.uk/ does it look like the ones with the bar in the neck to you?...and do the ones with the unperforated tonerings sound as good as the ones with the holes (especially when set up for gdae tuning? i love my paramounts, but im scared that at some point the necks might bend...and theres no harm in having a good few extra banjos in case of an emergency!
Edited by - diarmaid on 10/19/2009 09:43:54
NYCJazz - Posted - 10/19/2009: 18:23:06
Diarmaid
If you're playing a Silver Bell before you buy it, be sure to bring along a nice, strong magnet.
It's a really good way to tell if there's a steel bar inside the neck!
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/19/2009: 20:38:07
quote:
Originally posted by diarmaid
...i love my paramounts, but im scared that at some point the necks might bend...
and theres no harm in having a good few extra banjos in case of an emergency!
Heck... just take that gorgeous rosewood Epiphone Bandmaster plectrum -- and get the neck shortened...    http://www.findajo.co.uk/Bandmaster%20Plectrum.htm(Now THAT's a banjo I'd love to have! It's what the 1960's ODE wood-rim banjos were based on.) Best- Ed Britt ••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/20/2009: 00:46:47
Diarmaid,
I do see your point - plus every banjo player should at least once purchase a Silver Bell - this could make the world a better place to stay - LOL!
Bacon introduced the Type III (non-perforated) tone ring appr. mid ´27. It has been mentioned by some players, that they do prefer the earlier versions - however I´m not sure, that they´ve performed serious comparision tests. And as Ed Britt will say - Mr. Day would never introduce something not as good as its predecessor.
The basic sound and power is the same for banjos with either Type II or III. The only difference in my view is, that the late Type III gives you more flexibility when setting the banjo up for an individual sound etc.. You can f.ex. obtain a more complex sound, a more deep sound etc..
All SB´s from ´27 and forward, that I´ve met, have slim profiled and steel reinforced necks. And all of them are exactly as straight and non-warped as they were 80+ years ago. 80+ years from now they´ll still be like this, I think.
The SB at Kevin´s site has been refinished some years back. Except for the golden inside and maybe the tuners it looks 100% original. The poor pics are cheating, I guess - I don´t think, that it´s so reddish as the right pic shows.
For irish tuning I´ll recommend a REMO Renaissance head (11" High Crown) and a 3-legged 5/8" Farquhar bridge - with wide spacing and Taqua inlays. If you´re used to heavy strings, I´ll recommend 014-024W-032W-040W (nickel wounds).
This banjo has been for sale for a long time - maybe the seller will aggree for a lower price - the world market is very slow/low now.
I´ll say - go for Her - you´ll never regret it.
Kindly regards
Polle
PS!
I do alter the neck/rim joint(s) on all SB´s in order to obtain a higher string/head clearance plus a nice action using the high bridge. If you purchase the banjo, I´ll tell you about the relatively simple procedure connected with this rebuild.
Polle im wanting to add a silver bell to my collection at some point in the future, most likely one of the ones with the ebony fingerboard and headstock (as i prefer the look of these to pearloid)...this looks pretty nice to me, (the no 1 tenor)http://www.findajo.co.uk/ does it look like the ones with the bar in the neck to you?...and do the ones with the unperforated tonerings sound as good as the ones with the holes (especially when set up for gdae tuning? i love my paramounts, but im scared that at some point the necks might bend...and theres no harm in having a good few extra banjos in case of an emergency!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/20/2009: 01:14:44
PPS!
I forgot to delete your post in the end - LOL!
PPPS!
Most remarks regarding introduction, sound, power, flexibility, set-up etc. etc. goes for a SB #1 like the one for sale.
For other Silver Bell models or grades similar remarks can be slighty different.
diarmaid - Posted - 10/20/2009: 14:45:07
Nathan, good idea about the magnet, i use them when making some of my drums...to avoid nailing into embedded bars.
Ed da has a nice tenor epiphone bandmaster at home that i play everytime i visit, it came with a bonus 5 string neck, but has been returned to a tenor, a really, really nice banjo but the clamshell tailpiece is missing the adjusting screw, so i cant get the tailpiece cranked down to where i want it, though its still sounding pretty good...ive been looking for a replacement knurled screw, but have no idea where to find one.
Polle, one day soon I'll get a silver bell, weve just had a baby recently, so i dont think ill be allowed to buy one until my wife has finished her maternity leave at least...though thats only a couple of months away!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/20/2009: 21:48:46
Diarmaid,
Congratulations!
Maybe your next baby will be a Silver Bell - only not delivered by your wife - LOL!
Kindly regards
Polle
diarmaid - Posted - 10/21/2009: 03:49:52
Polle cheers i hope so too, though i'd be worried if they delivered a silver bell from my wife! lol maybe santa will bring me one at christmas!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/21/2009: 04:53:06
Diarmaid,
For many years I included a Ferrari on my Christmas wishing list - finally my 3 children gave me a 360 Modena - only I can´t climb into and drive it, as it is a 1:18 scale example.
Regarding Epiphone Recording´s - you descriebed them having a heavy neck - was your remark meant for the weight only (maybe caused by a glued-in steel bar) - or do they also have a wide fretboard and/or a heavy profile?
Most prewar tenors have a FB width at the nut of 28-29 mm - Vega FB´s are wider: 31-32 mm - how about an Epiphone Recording? Do you know?
Epiphones are very rare in DK - I haven´t met an example for 4-5 years now. But there´s maybe a chance for me purchasing a small collection of high-grade Epi´s here in DK. The owner passed away a few years ago.
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/21/2009: 06:15:46
Diarmaid --
Well... Congratulations to you and your wife, on your baby!!
All of the best, to all of you. A life-changing event, in many ways...
And banjo-wise, you're already luckier than me. At least you have an
opportunity to play a Bandmaster... now and then!
I've seen them in vintage shops. And a few on ebay, in the last few years.
And I have run across a few low-end Epiphones... But, in 40 years of
hunting for instruments -- I've never come across a Recording Bandmaster
"in the wild".
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
pgroff - Posted - 10/21/2009: 07:29:25
Diarmaid,
Let me congratulate you too!
I started late having kids myself -- mine are only 6 and 4 -- but they've made these years the best yet for me and I hope I'll get to stick around to enjoy a good few more with them. Mine have both been playing banjos too, along with every other instrument around here.
PG
NYCJazz - Posted - 10/21/2009: 07:49:26
Congrats, Diarmaid!
I'm sure you'll be able to put your musical skills to good use soothing your offspring!
I got a chance last year to jam with Tom Stuip, who was playing an Epiphone (with a B&D Soft Pedal!) and it was amazingly heavy, by far the fattest banjo I've ever played.
I forget what model it was... I'll have to check my photos.
diarmaid - Posted - 10/21/2009: 13:58:20
Polle yeah the extreme weight is just because of the metal and rosewood, the profile is really comfortable, id say the width and the profile are very similar to paramounts...in fact one of the most comfortable banjos ive ever played...if you get a chance to buy them for a good price i'd definitely recommedd it, theyre extremely popular banjos in ireland and hard to find, the epiphone a's and b's especially are really sought after...but im sure you'd have no problems selling any of them in ireland, especially as theres no dreaded customs to pay! The pot is also very heavy, the tonering is like a paramount ring on steroids, its much thicker and the supports are higher and embedded into the rim, i think the extra height allows more sound to travel round and eliminates any pocket of dead air between the tonering and the skin...allowing more sound to escape.
Ed theyre really popular in ireland, i used to get to have a go on my da's friends epiphone dragon when i was 10, i loved that banjo even if it was a bit of a stretch to play gdae without a capo, he now has a sweet collection, i think he had 3 epiphone concerts the last time i talked to him as well as many others, he plays a bandmaster tenor. If you ever get your hands on an elusive bandmaster, buy it...you know you want to!
Cheers Nathan, she actually really loves music, and I used to play the banjo for her before she was born...captive audience!lol...thats probably why she loves musc so much now!
diarmaid - Posted - 10/21/2009: 14:13:31
PS Paul i forgot to thank you too
beezaboy - Posted - 10/21/2009: 18:11:01
Diarmaid - Congratulations on the new addition to the family.
Best wishes!
Beezaboy
kidtulsa - Posted - 10/21/2009: 20:50:46
OK! It's been fun reading the back-and-forth over the last few days (and my congratulations, too, on the new addition to the family).
The sense that I'm getting is that a B+D Silver Bell might just be the ticket. A few questions, though.
Is a B+D Montana Silver Bell somehow different, aside from the decorations?
I've seen plain Silver Bells, both tenor and plectrum, at prices I can afford. Am I right in my assumption that 'Silver Bell' refers to the tone ring (?)
Also, it right to presume that the higher the number attached to the name, the more bells and whistles visually but not necessarily sonically?
I've also seen a few with mutes attached... Does the mechanism mute it completely or just lessen the volume?
Is there an optimum B+D 'set-up', in terms of tone ring/flange/materials/etc etc? Seems there are some strong opinions about these types of things when it comes to old Gibsons, etc.
Finally, would a skin head help create a warmer sound (and if so, how difficult are they to find for this type of banjo)?
Again, Thank you all for your sage advice. I very much appreciate your help (and sorry for so many questions)!
best,
Pete
rudykizuty - Posted - 10/22/2009: 02:57:56
The Montana is no different, it's just decoration. And you are correct, it is the tone ring that makes it a Silver Bell. Also right on with the 1-9 numbering on these beauties. As for the soft pedal, it depends on the setup. I've seen and played a few. It can range from a hair-trigger reaction that can be taken up to full mute and others that just "bended" the sound a little bit like a wah pedal when fully engaged. The mute is adjustable.
As for the banjo's set up in general, this can potentially represent a challenge, but so do all vintage banjos that have a dowel stick attachment system. Have someone who knows what they're doing do the work. I am not a fan of skin, but they are readily available from several sources.
Good luck with your search.
PS be sure to check the dowel markings. It is a widely held opinion among B&D afficionados that the Groton built banjos by the original Bacon Co. are of higher quality than the later Gretsch models. This is particularly important if you are looking at a Symphonie or Serenader model, as those seem to be the two models that Gretsch focused on manufacturing after the buyout. Early Gretsch's from the early 40's aren't so bad in some cases, but they built supposed Silver Bells through the 1960s and the later you go, the lesser the quality. Polle's database is a good resource for identifying year of manufacture. Anything prior to 1939 would be the real deal.
Anthony Herner
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You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny
Edited by - rudykizuty on 10/22/2009 03:11:41
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 10/22/2009: 03:35:45
Anthony,
Sorry - but no!
A Montana has basicly a more bright, clear and "cutting" sound. This is caused by the use of White Holly for the neck plus somehow also the extended use of Pyralin coverings.
Montana´s are in many parts of the world prefered by jazz rhythm players playing in 6-7 piece bands due to its "cutting" ability.
A Montana can however be set up to a sound very similar to the other Silver Bell models - f.ex. by using a Renaissance head and a bridge with only 2 legs plus big feet.
Pete,
I´ll get back with some detailed recommendations and set-up guidelines - however I´m very busy for now - please have some patience.
Nathan & Others,
Many have asked about my rebuilds of vintage banjos for better sound plus pro-playability - I´ll soon come up with some guidelines - please do also have some patience.
Kindly regards
Polle
diarmaid - Posted - 10/22/2009: 14:39:47
Beezaboy and kidtulsa cheers!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/19/2009: 07:28:25
Pete,
Have you followed the different threads here at BHO 4-String Styles since your request - regarding recommendable and/or suitable 4-string banjos - in your case a tenor?
If so - you´ve already got some good inputs.
As pointed out by me in one of the latest threads - a comparison between f.ex. two wellknown banjos can be unfair or impossible - as each of them may have their strong side within different music and playing styles.
Will it be possible for you narrowing in the borders of your desires?
If not - thinking of your inputs as later repeted by me - the only banjo, that can fullfill all of your dreams/desires - plus has an optimal potential in most fields - is a:
Yes - guys - I know, that you´ve guessed my statement in advance!
B&D Silver Bell - no matter which grade (1-4) - having your budget in mind.
I have restored/refinished/set-up/played and tested almost all vintage brands and models during the last 6-8 years - the one and only multipurpose high quality tenor banjo with a built-in potential for any pro to benefit from - is a
B&D Silver Bell
Please - don´t shoot the messenger!
Pete - if following my recommendation - go for a ´27 or ´28 version in mint condition - restored/refinished and set up by a top-luthier - the prices will start at appr. $2,000. You´ll never regret this.
Kindly regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 11/19/2009: 07:45:07
Polle: Silver Bell, Silver Bell, Silver Bell. Come on...
I was going to recommend a Gretsch. Not only are
they useful for snow shoveling and canoe paddling,
but you can use them for a banjo too.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 11/19/2009: 08:31:35
John,
I told you and others - Please, don´t shoot the messenger. LOL!
Beside that - the canoe season is over here - and we will not have snow for a month or two.
So we´ll have to play our banjos instead!
But seriously - if you can´t detect the diffence in potentials for a Gretsch and a prewar Silver Bell - you´ll never understand me and my views - LOL!
Regards
Polle Page: 1 2
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