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A. Barger - Posted - 10/10/2009: 17:41:40
As long as I've been listening to bluegrass, prolly about a year and a half now, I have heard that Flatt and Scruggs did not leave Bill Monroe on the best of terms... I have, however, been unsuccessful in finding out why this was the case. If the subject matter isn't too touchy and someone wouldn't mind giving a little history lesson, I'm just curious as to how this split occurred. Did they ever reconcile?
Andrew
If you make a mistake once, it's a mistake. If you make a mistake twice, it's jazz!
EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 10/10/2009: 17:48:00
[size=2]There are many people here more knowledgable about such things than I am, but I think some of the bad feelings may have been due to Bill's perception that Flatt & Scruggs were leaving to form a band that would be copying his style of music. He was a brilliant, ambitious man who could be rather possesive of his "sound", and said on more than one occasion that musicians should develop their own styles. Flatt & Scruggs left in 1948, before anybody else was really playing what we now call bluegrass. It wasn't a genre yet, it was just the sound of Bill's band. Of course, Lester and Earl had as much to do with creating that sound as Bill did, but it was still his band.
At least, that is the story I have usually read. That's probably a simplified take on the issue, one that fits in neatly with Bill Monroe's image. What exactly went on between the three of them 61 years ago was probably a bit more complex.
After Flatt & Scruggs broke up in 1969, Bill and Lester reconciled at least enough for Lester to appear at Bean Blossom in 1971 and 1973, and for the two of them to play a concert together at Vanderbilt in 1974. Bill and Earl didn't play together until 1994, two years before Bill's death.
I would highly recommend the book "Bluegrass: A History", by Neil Rosenberg - it is a highly readable, comprehensive survey of the genre's first few decades.
(By the way, that Vanderbilt show is available on CD: http://tinyurl.com/yf4rf5d)
Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 10/10/2009 18:28:07
Nosferatu - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:15:20
In a lurch...
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
Axeman79 - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:17:50
I may be way off base, but in reading about the issue in writings by Flatt and Scruggs, they provide a very clear reason for leaving Monroe. Scruggs stated that he was being worked very hard and there was too much travel involved. I believe he left around the time he met his wife...so my own experience tells m that she likely influenced the decision. Keep in mind that Scrugg's wife became his manager. After Flatt & Scruggs was formed, they claimed they kept their travels to a minimum for family reasons.
Did they ever reconcile with Monroe. I have to believe they did since there are instances were they were together again on the same stage for different reasons. In fact, there a a youtube video showing the two playing together...likely the 1960s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izliWZopCy4
Keep in mind that most early, well known, Bluegrass musicians worked their way through Monroe.
If the minimum wasn't good enough...it wouldn't be the minimum.
3fingers - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:24:14
It seems like I remember that they didnt leave exactly at the same time. One of them left a little before the other I dont know if it was a couple weeks or a month but I seem to remember it wasnt exactly at the same time.
Craig
http://www.myspace.com/borrowedtyme2
Come along down to the barnyard lets have us a little banjer pickin
Jeremiah 6:16
Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8 10:9, 10:13, 1st John 5:10-13.
John Gribble - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:24:37
The story is told in the Bill Monroe biography "Can't You Hear Me Callin'".
John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan
Flying Eagle - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:34:30
Did Monroe really have "that style" before Lester and Earl came in? Somehow I doubt it. Surely Lester and Earl deserve as much credit for inventing the genre as Bill Monroe. I suspect Bill knew that Lester and Earl were taking the best band he'd ever had away from him, and he was bitter about it. Fortunately for Bill, he was able to recover nicely and had great bands after Lester and Earl left him.
Oalbrets - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:50:31
Get the book, Can't you hear me calling and you will learn quite a bit of the history of bluegrass and Flatt and Scruggs. It is a great book.
Poverty Ridge Bluegrass
The Old Timer - Posted - 10/10/2009: 19:21:34
Well, Monroe had to be upset that his "good thing", that was operating "in the groove" was disrupted! They were tearing it up with F&S on board. Bill always had one of his most trusted band members be his "first lieutenant" (I've read that term applied to many of his band members many times), and Flatt was doing that on stage, and Earl was doing that with the money (it's been said Earl was the only member of the band who'd graduated high school). Having them leave really upset Bill's business. The fact that they would soon be COMPETING with him was a second slap (to Monroe).
Plus, from reading "Can't You Hear Me Calling" and other stuff like that, riding the roads with Monroe was both physically and mentally (perhaps morally) challenging. Earl was quoted as being scared to death riding with Monroe and Bessie Lee, that Bessie's husband, a Tenn. State Trooper, might stop them and shoot up the car! I bet the fun of that kind of togetherness wears off fairly quick!
I think one of the big things might have been that Earl being trusted with the money, he soon figured how much money there was TO be made! That sort of betrays the trust Monroe put in him to handle the money (in Monroe's view, I mean). Almost as if Earl wasn't supposed to notice all that moolah...
And after it was all said and done, I believe Lester and Earl probably worked just as hard, if not harder, and traveled as much if not more, with their own band up until they got on the Opry, than the Blue Grass Boys who at least had a permanent "home" in Nashville. F&S had to move constantly was they worked out the vein in various cities: Lexington, Knoxville, Raleigh, Richmond, Knoxville again, Bristol, I think even Florida for a while (Tampa, where they recorded once?). But at least it was their show, and they got the money, and they got to make the rules of behavior. And their songs were also their own!
Also, for all the talk of bad blood, it seems almost more of a silent treatment. I don't think any of the parties ever publicly dissed the others. In fact, at the first Fincastle festival, you can hear on the tape that Carter Stanley is enjoying himself trying to whip up some bad talk with Monroe about F&S not being there. Bill hastens to defuse it, saying he wouldn't do anything to hurt either one of them.
Now the "stories" about Monroe circulating a petition at the Opry to keep F&S off, if true, would be going way beyond a silent treatment. I have no way of knowing (from my reading) if that actually happened or not.
I think it's also partially due to Monroe's woefully developed "social skills" and general stern demeanor. Sonny Osborne has talked on film/video about how Monroe might turn on the silent treatment and nobody could even figure out what they'd done to upset him. Sonny said once he endured some "years" of that from Monroe and finally one day saw him across a parking lot and decided to just go up and take the initiative to talk to him! And there turned out to be no issue, they got along thick as thieves after that. But it seems that one had to actively reach out to Monroe to cause anything to improve in an otherwise rocky relationship.
At least that's my understanding from what I've read and heard. Every few years, however, a bit more of the story behind the story gets out. I'm sure we'll learn more.
The Old Timer
"Do you know how long it takes to charm people from Maine? They're uptight white people coated with a hard exterior made from other uptight white people." Joel Stein, TIME magazine Oct. 12, 2009
lightgauge - Posted - 10/10/2009: 20:30:33
I read an interview of Earl where he said he simply was not making enough money on the road to support himself and help out his family back home. He had a little apartment in Nashville and got home late saturday nights and left back out early monday morning. He said he planned on going back home to work in a mill when he quit Monroe. I don't remember enough details, but it seems that some amount of time passed before Lester called and said he had left also and wanted to start a band.
Brother Jeeter - Posted - 10/10/2009: 20:44:23
I was once told (by a man who was supposed to know) that Bill felt kinda hard toward everyone who ever left his band (at least for a while.) He felt that HE had developed the music and that every musician who left him, had taken something away from him. Seems petty to me, but there is no explaining the things people do...
“The pump don’t work ‘cause the vandals took the handles.”
Bob Dylan
“Don’t get beat, ever, by anything, or anyone. You might get killed, but never get beat…And never ask for nothing but God’s light to see by.”
'The Woodsman'
"Do not traverse a structure erected to afford passage over a waterway until the time of drawing nigh unto it."
"Endeavor to Persevere."
From THE OUTLAW JOSIE WALES
Edited by - Brother Jeeter on 10/10/2009 20:45:40
BvilleDon - Posted - 10/10/2009: 23:35:55
I believe that Earl has also written was that part of the reason was because they could not count on Monroe off stage to show up on time after a gig--that he would at times leave the band waiting with no explanation while he pursued matters never mentioned and that he would get them running so far behind scxhedule they would drive at break neck speeds to reach their next date. It was surely a combination of things.
Don
axsis - Posted - 10/11/2009: 06:11:02
When Earl quit I believe Bill said "since you have quit the band..........no one will remember the name Earl Scruggs"
Cheers!
Don
Ebanjo - Posted - 10/11/2009: 06:43:30
How did Earl leave Bill Monroe? VERY CAREFULLY! lol Old Timer, you were hitting the nail on thehead about some of the reasons Earl left. I think it was in Jake Lambert's
book on Lester Flatt, it was told Earl did handle the money for Bill. According to Mr. Lambert's book, when the BG Boys would come back into Nashville on Saturday to play the Opry, Earl recalled depositing anywhere from 5 to 7 thousand dollars in the bank for Bill. Les and Earl were making $60 per week and saw there was a little more to be made from picking than what they were making with Bill. The travel was also rough riding in Bill's stretch limo. It was told they would go for a week without getting to take their shoes off. Earl told in a Banjo Newsletter interview in recent years (The Trischka-Fleck interview 3 or 4 years ago) that he gave Bill 2 weeks notice and Bill wouldn't speak to him for 2 weeks. At the end of those 2 weeks, Bill asked him to stay on for 2 more weeks to which Earl agreed and said it meant 2 more weeks of Bill not speaking to him. Then after that is when Lester gave his notice. If anyone wants to correct me, feel free. Maybe Doug Hutchens could tell us some more about this.
Eric Ellis
Edited by - Ebanjo on 10/11/2009 06:45:26
fatdaddyo6 - Posted - 10/11/2009: 07:05:39
I heard that Bessie pocketed some ticket money , put the blame on Cedric Rainwater. Cedric was dismissed Bessie stayed and Earl felt his position of book keeper could come into question if Bessie needed pocket change again. With all of the other less than perfect conditions prevelant in the arrangments in the organization it was the straw that broke the banjo pickers back.
No body wanted to be let go for being accused of stealing and Bill had proven which way he was turning the blind eye.
Les and Earl decided to make a go of it on their own without a chick singer
mike gregory - Posted - 10/11/2009: 09:31:58
Artistic differences:
She didn't like him nagging her about the hemline being a bit high. 
And, he didn't like the way she played guitar.
DHutchens - Posted - 10/11/2009: 17:24:44
I'll comment on this tomorrow......I have talked to all the principals in this story, and the legends are many but the truth is pretty simple.
but I need and most would agree that I need my beauty sleep. Won't help I know, but might make me feel better.
Doug
Oalbrets - Posted - 10/11/2009: 17:57:02
After Earl and Lester left Bill, he didn't talk to them for many many years.
Poverty Ridge Bluegrass
Stevespickn - Posted - 10/11/2009: 18:02:42
One reason Bill did not speak, was all the popularity of Lester and Earl with the Beverly Hillbillies, Martha White Show, and numerous big time gigs, when Bill was still struggling to get over the Rock and Roll craze, playing small school houses etc. All of that, added to them leaving him, compounded the situation.
Earl Scruggs was as important as "defining the sound" as anyone.
Steve
Arkansas Mountain View
Osborne Chief
1927 Gibson TB-3 conversion
minstrelmike - Posted - 10/11/2009: 18:06:11
I think a lot of that stuff got compounded together. I've read several of the Monroe bios and no one makes their decisions knowing how the future is going to turn out, it's all based on how things are turning out now.
That said, I've never considered the aspect that Louise Scruggs was the Yoko Ono of bluegrass music, perhaps breaking up the seminal band.
Love trumps music.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
Edited by - minstrelmike on 10/11/2009 18:06:44
Oalbrets - Posted - 10/11/2009: 19:34:49
Bill, have you read the book, Can't you hear me calling? Bill was very hard to get along with and carried grudges for years to come. Some people don't have many good words to say about Bill Monroe. I sure would have liked to met him.
Poverty Ridge Bluegrass
The Old Timer - Posted - 10/11/2009: 20:00:39
Oalbrets, I had the honor and privilege of "meeting" Monroe in his last few years, and being a visitor in his home (with other friends). He made coffee for me and invited me back "to talk about the old days". (Maybe he told every visitor that...) Of course all my bluegrass life I had been filled full of stories about Monroe, a few first hand from Don Stover and the McCourys, and reading tons of stuff. Of course I was super-polite and meek, just totally in awe of being there.
The conclusion I drew from those very few times with Monroe was that I'm sure he was a VERY hard person to "get to know". To use the language of some older folks, he was mighty "close" with his words. He simply was not a talker, that I ever found out.
I saw him in person many a time doing "mandolin workshops" at bluegrass festivals, and some beginner would ask him a wildly inappropriate question about music theory, and he would just look off into space and appear to be deaf to the question. I saw him do that on TV interviews, too.
Butch Robins' and Bob Black's books talk about how they would absolutely CRAVE a word or two of praise or even correction about their banjo playing, for YEARS, and get nearly NOTHING. NADA. Butch wrote some interesting ideas about Monroe's social skills and mental development in his book. Who knows, maybe he was onto something.
Monroe's mind seemed to be very focused on "Bill Monroe issues", not other people's issues -- other than kids and pretty ladies, whom he tended to dote on.
Mike Compton told me his personal breakthrough in dealing with Monroe in those later years was when he decided it was best just to deal with him same as any grumpy old man! I think the late BGB fiddler Jimmy Campbell said his breakthrough was when he decided to treat Monroe like his grandfather.
I bet Monroe simply wanted to "be his own man" and get out from under the bossing of his older brothers. And he did it in spades!
I wouldn't wonder if only Joe Stuart every really got "through" to Monroe on a man to man basis, at least as a BGB. I love the story about Joe telling Monroe one day in a hotel elevator, "I think I could take you today!" and when the elevator door opened in the lobby Joe Stuart was rolled across the lobby like a bowling ball.
Meeting Monroe was a very odd experience for me, reflecting on it after the fact!
The Old Timer
"Do you know how long it takes to charm people from Maine? They're uptight white people coated with a hard exterior made from other uptight white people." Joel Stein, TIME magazine Oct. 12, 2009
Brett - Posted - 10/12/2009: 05:05:06
A friend who was mandolin player in our band had played mandolin and sang tenor with Charlie Louvin on the Opry and shows, so he'd gotten to know Monroe pretty well backstage at the Opry. they'd swap mandolins and talk mandolins and fiddle tunes. so, he knew him well. He took me (and his kid) up to Monroe at a show and it was daytime and Monroe was in his suit and hat over there totally by himself. He warmly greeted Steve and gave his son a quarter. Steve introduced me to him and we shook hands and he glared at me. I glared back. No words were exchanged and a dead silence filled the meeting and I was determined not to speak and obviously he was too. It kinda rattled the whole "greeting" session and finally Steve took over and said somethings we walked off (Monroe and I just stared the whole time and didnt speak). I'd met him years before, so I knew how he could be and I was determined to not kiss butt, which I'm sure he routinely got and expected. I did the same thing near Jimmy Martin once, we were 2 feet apart and alone and he kept staring at me, as I had my banjo on (this was in the newer Ernest Tubb record shop and we were playing the midnight jamboree thing and his band was on later, and I never spoke (again, I'd been around him and knew how he was). He was in rare form in a pink shirt and white sportcoat and hat and some kinda wild pants and white patton leather shoes. I really think it frosted him hard I didn't do the worship thing.
Brisco Darlin' "man can get a lot of tones out of a jug"
Prof - Posted - 10/12/2009: 05:36:25
quote:
Steve introduced me to him and we shook hands and he glared at me. I glared back. No words were exchanged and a dead silence filled the meeting and I was determined not to speak and obviously he was too. It kinda rattled the whole "greeting" session and finally Steve took over and said somethings we walked off (Monroe and I just stared the whole time and didnt speak). I'd met him years before, so I knew how he could be and I was determined to not kiss butt, which I'm sure he routinely got and expected. I did the same thing near Jimmy Martin once, we were 2 feet apart and alone and he kept staring at me, as I had my banjo on (this was in the newer Ernest Tubb record shop and we were playing the midnight jamboree thing and his band was on later, and I never spoke (again, I'd been around him and knew how he was). He was in rare form in a pink shirt and white sportcoat and hat and some kinda wild pants and white patton leather shoes. I really think it frosted him hard I didn't do the worship thing.
Seems like you missed a great opportunity to speak to 2 legends. Why wouldn't they expect someone to speak to them? Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...  
Oalbrets - Posted - 10/12/2009: 07:00:21
Thanks everyonr for the great stories. I love it. This is a great thred and keep it comming. I like the quarter thing. I read about that storie. Thanks Old timer for replying.
Poverty Ridge Bluegrass
Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 10/12/2009: 10:48:12
Well being from the same area and having met Bill. He reminded me of my Grandfather.. He's the Patriarch and them youngsters is gonna pay respect to his position... Not to say that they didn't have a sense of humor, etc.. But they put up a pretty stern front.. A lot of the old timer family heads were like that.. But you didn't want to cross them either..
KL
banjerman - Posted - 10/12/2009: 12:20:22
Hey A:
Bill was notoriously hard to please or get along with for any length of time. It was his way or the highway...period. He could be real nice or ornery as heck depending on his mood. Hard to put up with that day to day.
Wally
mrbook - Posted - 10/12/2009: 16:17:46
Around 1973 we hired Monroe to play at our college. Country Cooking was the opening band, and before the show they were laughing and joking in the back room. I saw Monroe come into the hall with his mandolin, stride confidently to the back and open the door, and there was suddenly dead silence when he went in the back room. A couple voices meekly said, "Hi, Bill." When I had to deal with Monroe that night he scared me with his intensity - the only performer who ever did. I met him near the end of his performing career, and he was a little kinder and gentler, but still pretty intense. I think you have to be to make that music.
Few people give the real reason for leaving any job. Scruggs, and Flatt as well, probably didn't make enough money working for Monroe (most players don't seem to mention their time with Monroe in monetary terms). Whether they planned to continue in music or not, they also saw that there was money to be made in music, but not for a sideman.
Few people seem to have left Monroe on good terms - I laughed when I heard how Kenny Baker left. It doesn't make me think less of Monroe or anyone else involved, but just makes me understand how the business works. I can't say that many people have left bands I've played in on good terms.
Bill
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 10/12/2009: 17:36:24
I met Mr. Monroe several times later in his career. He was always very gracious and accessible. Living close to Bean Blossom ( making every festival since 86) I had the privilege of seeing him perform many times. The festivals used to go for 10 days and he closed the show every night. Sometimes when he closed the conditions were bad. The temperature was in the mid 40 degree range, it was late (around midnight), and in the mid week there might be just a handful of people in the crowd. EVERY time he gave a great show and put his heart into it! He didn’t big time it, sing a tune, have his sidemen do a tune, check his watch every other song and get quickly off the stage talking about it being late and cold. He always respected his audience (how many bands today get on stage looking like campers) and WORKED HARD to give the audience their moneys worth. Monroe grew up in a hard no nonsense background that few can relate to today. He lost both his parents young in life and was dirt poor living in a small cabin, He was very self conscious about his cross eyed appearance and was the youngest of several siblings. He did hard physical labor and nothing was given to him. He loved his music and had to sacrifice and work very hard for it. He NEVER sold out or compromised his creative integrity. He was STRONG like few people are today and he had a vision, a passion, and a purpose. Monroe was made of the same cloth as Coaches Lombardi and Knight and he likewise had a competitive streak in him and a strong drive to excel. In his youth getting into a fight was a form of entertainment and his sense of humor could also be strong and hard. Loyalty and honesty were huge to him. If during a time in his life he was protective of his music and did not handle people leaving: that is understandable. He learned later in life that imitation was a form of flattery. Lets be clear, Flatt and Scruggs were great but they did play Monroe’s style of music and Monroe was at first protective of it. If you know people that came out of the depression they never take having anything for granted and I feel Monroe felt the same about protecting his music to make a living. Anybody not respecting this man and giving this man his due earned respect in my opinion has a problem. I coached D1 athletics for almost 30 years and treasured every athlete I had that had traces of Monroe’s character. I often wished my kids liked bluegrass so they could relate to Monroe and learn how to make the most of the abilities and opportunities you are given and thus gain a portion of his strength of character. Monroe created a music and it took a great deal of strength, old time farmer independence and self reliance to do that. All of us that love this music owe him a great deal of gratitude.
Ken
Bloomington, Indiana
DHutchens - Posted - 10/12/2009: 17:48:44
Ken
You knew Bill Monroe..... I spent most of my free time today chasing an address for another thread and didn't have the time it took to respond to this one, but you hit more than one nail on the head.
Doug
The Old Timer - Posted - 10/12/2009: 19:07:36
I appreciate Ken's comments very much.
Anything I posted certainly didn't mean to take away from Monroe's accomplishments, or how he chose to accomplish them. Or how hard HE labored.
He was unique!
The Old Timer
"Do you know how long it takes to charm people from Maine? They're uptight white people coated with a hard exterior made from other uptight white people." Joel Stein, TIME magazine Oct. 12, 2009
Banjophobic - Posted - 10/12/2009: 19:38:53
It's always amazed me how folks gravitate to the 'dirt' ,when talking about artists. I guess its human nature to seek out discord and amplify it by repeating it with their own versions of it.
Bill has made his remarks about it as has Scruggs and Flatt. We will never know the whole truth of the story and thats a good thing as its between them and no ones business, really. I focus on the positives in such a situation. The main positive being we kept a Bill band and gained a new voice in F&S. Things tend to work themselves out for the best, even with all the 'help' from the public opinion...
SandyR - Posted - 10/13/2009: 00:18:57
In just his 6th post on this forum, Ken in Bloomington (a favorite Midwest college town of mine in the '60s) has expressed more truth, clear understanding, and rational thinking than I've seen when the subject of Bill Monroe and his music has come up. While I believe the 1946 Monroe band was a true and wonderful "happy accident" of musical history, I also see Bill's ultimate centrality in the chemistry. Thanks for the great encapsulation, Ken.
BvilleDon - Posted - 10/13/2009: 03:06:44
Sandy Rothman could say a great deal about Monroe here. I think he has stayed away from this forum since a fellow who is a legend in his own mind called him full of "useless" information. However, not only did Sandy pick banjo as a member of the Bluegrass Boys, he also produced several Jerry Garca albums and made a beautiful Bluegrass Guitar Duets album with another very accomplished player. I asked Sandy about Monroe and especially his relationship with banjo pickers in the group. Sandy told me that it was true that a person could get on Monroe's wrong side and stay there for quite some time, but that Monroe had always treated Sandy very decently. Sandy told me he thought it was because he was so young and shy when their relationship started. I think Monroe always felt like Sandy had the appropriate respect for Monroe.
I think we could all benefit from such "useless" information from someone who had actually picked banjo as a Bluegrass Boy, produced several Garcia albums and is just not one to toot his own horn.
Sandy, if you read this, I hope I have not misrepresented what you told me about Monroe. I have tried to accurately portray what you have shared with me.
Don
BvilleDon - Posted - 10/13/2009: 03:42:01
Sandy, you left a message while i was typing! I would have stayed quiet if I had known you were on here. Check your email. I am ready to make mea culpas if I have misrepresented your feelings in any way!
Don
SandyR - Posted - 10/13/2009: 04:03:04
Don: I'll reply by PM, but briefly: I mainly played guitar and sang in the BGBs (banjo on a few shows), and only produced one Garcia album ("Almost Acoustic," currently out of print)! I'm not sure whether Bill saw me as a person with "the appropriate respect" or not—for one thing, remember I met him in 1963, long after his acrimonious split with Lester and Earl, and he wasn't hard to get along with by then if you treated him with just ordinary human respect, which he would return, and if you could handle the rocky road life and weren't focused on the sideman's small pay—but most of what you relayed about things I told you was accurate enough for me.
f5loar - Posted - 10/13/2009: 07:37:12
I think what is important is if F&S had stayed with Monroe we might not have heard about Don Reno, Rudy Lyle, Sonny Osborne, Curtis McPete, Bill Keith, Butch Robbins, etc,etc. Those 2 guys leaving Monroe I think started the bluegrass revolution as we know it today. Monroe gave hundreds of persons the strength and knowledge to go out and make a living on his brand of music. From that we have IBMA and all those associated with it. Should we say we owe all to Earl for leaving?
Tom Isenhour
bluegrassboy - Posted - 10/13/2009: 07:54:17
thank you ken, my feelings exactly, i could allways relate to bill as my dad grew up in the 30s and has alot of bills characteristics.
ambpicker - Posted - 10/13/2009: 08:31:48
I really like Ken's comments.
I'll add this.
I think Monroe was a musical genius.
Leslie
stanger - Posted - 10/13/2009: 10:23:27
Right on, F.E.
If you listen to Rocky Road Blues before and after Flatt and Scruggs joined the band, you'll immediately hear the reasons why Monroe hit so big after he hired them. The older version is slower, and done in a lumpy semi-swing style; the accordian just doesn't cut it. The later version is done like a boogie, at a much more arresting and toe-tapping pace.
Monroe particularly resented the loss of Flatt. Lester's lead vocals brought Monroe his largest selling single hits, and I think he may have resented Lester for another reason- Lester was the one who encouraged Monroe to bring Scruggs into the band. Monroe didn't hear the potential Scrugg's playing had as a second lead instrument to the mandolin, but Lester did. So the resentment was doubled when Lester talked Earl into leaving soon after Lester left.
The main reason I heard was Monroe wasn't paying either of them enough to suit Lester, especially when they were constantly travelling so much. Lester and Earl both wanted to get a larger share of the recording royalties, and both wanted to spend more time at home with their wives.
The fact that the Foggy Mtn. Boys went on to much greater visibility and success is due to Louise Scruggs. She realized that the folk music boom, and the attendant big college audiences the folk artists were drawing, was much better paying than the old venues around the South Monroe played. Without Louise, who knows how famous the Foggy Mtn. Boys would have become... Earl once said they were starving to death before Louise took over the management.
Another thing to toss out- while Flatt & Scruggs did very well, Scruggs consistently played to much larger crowds in the 70's when he toured with the Earl Scruggs Revue. The college kids then loved his sound when he played with his sons, and he spent a longer time with the Revue than with the Foggy Mtn. Boys.
regards,
stanger
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
Did Monroe really have "that style" before Lester and Earl came in? Somehow I doubt it. Surely Lester and Earl deserve as much credit for inventing the genre as Bill Monroe. I suspect Bill knew that Lester and Earl were taking the best band he'd ever had away from him, and he was bitter about it. Fortunately for Bill, he was able to recover nicely and had great bands after Lester and Earl left him.
The pen is mightier than the pigs.
DHutchens - Posted - 10/13/2009: 11:27:57
I think we have some writers and well intentioned followers who assumed way too much for much of the legend of Monroe - Flatt/Scruggs.
When Lester and Earl left the band according to Earl “We were making 60.00 a week”. That was pretty good money for the late 1940’s. according to http://www.tvhistory.tv/1948%20QF.htm
What Things Cost in 1948:
Car: $1,550
Gasoline: 26 cents/gal
House: $13,500
Bread: 14 cents/loaf
Milk: 86 cents/gal
Postage Stamp: 3 cents
Minimum Wage: 40 cents per hour
At this rate a typical worker who was working 40 hours a week at minimum wage for the year would make $832.00 for the year.
Lester and Earl would make 3,000.00 assuming that Bill gave them two weeks off for Christmas.
In conversations with Bill and Earl I have heard each speak about when Bill would stop by especially in Bristol after Les and Earl was on the radio there and doing the early morning radio show with them in order to advertise a date he was doing in the area…..On one of these mornings a trade between Don Reno and Earl Scruggs happened…you may have heard about that sometime along the way.
I have talked extensively to Carlton Haney who was there in the early 50’s and he said that it was not uncommon that Lester and Earl would stop backstage at Opry if they were in the area. He said that on more than one occasion when Bill was between regular guitar and banjo players, he ask Lester and Earl to help him out that night and they did.
There was one night…..They walked in the back door of the Opry and Bill was heading for the stage and ask them if they would play with him that night to which Lester said “We don’t have our instruments with us”. Bill went on and did his portion and when he and Carlton walked down to Linebaugh’s to get a bit to eat between shows, (Here is a sidebar )Jim Eanes station wagon was parked on the street. Now Lester and Earl didn’t have a car and Jim Eanes always kiddingly said that was why the Foggy Mountain Boys started in Danville, Va. With him as a charter member….he had a car and neither Lester or Earl had one. A few weeks later he got a telegram (again I have Jim telling this on tape) from Bill asking him to come to Nashville. After talking it over with Lester and Earl, Lester said “But you are leaving us without transportation” Jim said I’m going to be riding with Bill you keep the car for now and we’ll work it out. Jim caught a bus and went to Nashville. At Sandy Ridge NC in 1966 ( I remember because I got the “66” songbook that night) of Lester inviting Jim out to do a couple of numbers and kidded him about taking that car and totally wearing it out. When I asked Jim about it years later he said that Lester and Earl had sent money orders to his mother every few weeks until the car was paid for)
But back to the car outside Linebaugh’s Bill said would you look there. Their instruments were in the back. Carlton said that it was a very good possibility that Lester meant that ‘we don’t have our instruments with us’ meaning they didn’t have them with them at the time and were parked a long way down the street and as Carlton said Bill was literally walking on stage as they walked in the back door.
Couple of other things to think about
If there was such a beef why would Bill allow his sidemen get along with Lester and Earl in the early days…Rudy Lyle used to go with Lester and Earl to dates if Bill wasn’t busy…many others mentioned the same things.
What was the miracle that caused Bill to be in the PBS video “Earl Scruggs and Friends” in 69 a few months after the break up and play Bean Blossom in June of 70.….I answered the phone several times at the old Barn at Bean Blossom hearing “Earl Scruggs here, is Bill around”.
I’ve got to go for now, but will give you more to think about later.
Oh I almost forgot some have mentioned the hatchet job publication done by some guy named Jones or was it smith…..it’s a waste of paper, ink and printing time, it’s a joke to most of us who were there. His book isn’t about the Bill Monroe that most of us knew. His fascination was misplaced.
Doug
SandyR - Posted - 10/13/2009: 13:38:42
Doug is right about everything here, including his feelings about the "hearsay biography" that has unfortunately become the go-to reference for Monroe's life—a real travesty since there is so very little of the real person in it. Doug's anecdotes remind me of the "folklore" that was always so prevalent around the relationship between Bill and Charlie and a story told by Ralph Rinzler (who certainly knew the rumor mill) about visiting Charlie with Bill and how he was caught by surprise, seeing the two of them hug each other. There is a whole lot to be said about the old game of "Telephone": how quickly and thoroughly reality can become distorted through the retelling and embellishment of stories. It may be "all folklore," if it comes from folks, but some parts of it are much more reliable than others!
bowfinger - Posted - 10/13/2009: 13:42:47
DougH. I wish someone would refute the parts of that book that are in dispute. I've heard over and over that it contains a good bit that is misreported, however, no one ever really takes individual points to task. I think this needs to be done.
I appreciate the above post. It shows a continued cordial relationship that is rarely mentioned. I believe alot of the rumors of long term anger have been possibly just hype by promoters and gossip by those who didn't know the facts.
I do think that Monroe could have been angry for a while. But consider the following. What if a modern country artist had a band with a certain sound. Say someone as popular as George Strait. And their band leaves and starts doing the same style and in fact some of the same songs. Should George be angry? I'd say so. An artist unique sound is his most valuable asset. So when this happened to Monroe (who was a BIG country star at the time) he could not have been happy. I suspect this later played into his blocking J. Martin from the Opry as well. (Jimmy just never had the popularity clout to overcome it)
I do think Monroe was angry to be left out of later promotional material (album covers, magazine articles) as to where F&S got their sound. These ignored Monroe pointedly. This kept him out of competition with F&S in the Folk Revival movement. I believe much of this material was written by Louise Scruggs about whom Monroe had a couple of famous statements.
Always remember "bluegrass" was not a form of music back then. It was just some bands. And remember the 10-15 year time frame as it relates to how slow or fast things were going on.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/13/2009: 14:13:47
$3000 in 1948 would be about $26,870 in 2009 dollars.
Probably a decent wage in many rural parts of the country, back then.
(Probably wouldn't have cut it in the bigger cities..)
But... with a growing family, and only Earl working -- it might
have been tight.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Ebanjo - Posted - 10/13/2009: 15:43:33
Doug,
Thanks for setting things straight. You should write a book on Bill some time.
Always good to hear from you.
Eric Ellis
Edited by - Ebanjo on 10/13/2009 15:44:32
Oalbrets - Posted - 10/13/2009: 18:38:05
I'm going to throw my "Can't you hear me calling" book in the garbage since it is all BS. Anything to make a buck I guess. Thanks for the input Doug.
Poverty Ridge Bluegrass
BvilleDon - Posted - 10/14/2009: 00:20:11
They all made such great contributions. Even though there were disputes, especially as to some of the song writing--I'll never forget the deference that Earl showed Monroe in an appearance in the early or mid 70s. Earl asked Monroe if it would be alright for Earl to introduce him to the crowd. Earl acted embarrassed on the DVD to even ask such a question. These were all fallible people with their own personal problems and limitations to overcome. The fact that they were real flesh and blood people with real living problems is a great inspiration to me. I do think it is important to sort fact from ficrtion where possible. But that these three were real folks and not demigods and were able to accomplish so much individually and together is ionspirational to me. It is much different than the pop culture celebrity phenomena that has kids wondering what Paris Hilton has to eat for breakfast. I do not see viewing them as fallible as a put down or concentrating on the negative. My memory is bad, but I do know Bill said that Foggy Mountain Breakdown was a version of a song he had written earlier and that Earl claimed that he wrote that song also but did not realize the importance of song ownership at that early time. I kind of think they each believed their own version of the facts sincerely. That does not detract from their accomplishments or make their disagreements a matter for gossip. It is just a reality of the relationship. Differences aside, it is obvious in the DVD from the 70s meeting that Earl still held Monroe in very high esteem.
Don
SandyR - Posted - 10/14/2009: 02:55:32
quote:
DougH. I wish someone would refute the parts of that book that are in dispute. I've heard over and over that it contains a good bit that is misreported, however, no one ever really takes individual points to task. I think this needs to be done.
This was done in a small newsletter called "True Life News" which was circulated to a small mailing list I developed. Doug and I both contributed to it. Tom Ewing contributed a point-by-point refutation of what he considered major gaffes. While this newsletter wasn't broadly available, I'm sure many of Tom's thoughts will appear in the Monroe biography he's currently writing, to be published by University of Illinois Press (date unknown as yet).
mrbook - Posted - 10/14/2009: 07:05:18
I am not interested in "the dirt" on anyone, but merely to know more of the stories behind the music. I've listened to and played the music for years, and realize that the feeling these people put into their music came from their unique personalities. I've met a few of the people briefly, and read extensively about others, but there are always holes and gaps in my knowledge. Mr. Hutchens filled in a few here. I'm not making value judgements or trying to criticize anyone's life, and I can't think of anything that would diminish my admiration for anyone as people and musicians. However, I like to know the real stories instead of basing my impressions on rumors or half-truths.
Bill
Oalbrets - Posted - 10/14/2009: 07:46:03
Well said Bill. I feel the same way.
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