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Just Bill - Posted - 10/09/2009: 05:56:21
How many of you with spikes experience the fifth string fretting sharp when you capo it with a spike? (Assuming your spikes are installed correctly and not driven down too low into the fingerboard.)
Bill
Proud to be a "MURPHY HENRY-ITE"
"If you ain't different, you ain't normal!"
Poppy - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:01:02
just a shade sharp.
"What kind of man would live in a world where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." -- Charles Lindberg
bigbluegrasser - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:02:58
Everyone that I know has that problem with spikes. It seems to come with the package.
Ray
SoggyBottom - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:12:22
yes, goes with the capo/spike ... which is why some folks prefer to forgo it and just straight-tune ...
SoggyBottom
David Ward - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:16:36
Hello, I've never played a banjo that hasn't had that problem except my Yates Shelby is pretty close to right on. It's hard to get them right on. Depends on the installer I guess. I've never done it myself but I'm about to try it .
"Blue Country Bluegrass"
slowdeath - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:17:51
quote:
Originally posted by SoggyBottom
yes, goes with the capo/spike ... which is why some folks prefer to forgo it and just straight-tune ...
SoggyBottom
if you just straight tune it screws up all your 5th string fretted notes. It puts them out of place and changes all your melodic shapes if you are used to it a certain way. Better to just spike it and adjust tuning slightly. Plus i don't think it's too good to be putting all that extra tension on the 5th string. Regards, Matt www.myspace.com/slowdeathandloneliness
goldtopia - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:32:04
Spikes always do that. Its not difficult to tune down a fraction. The only 5th string capo that I know of which does not make the string go sharp is the Raegan, but its a bit fiddly.
Bill.O
www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk
Richard Dress - Posted - 10/09/2009: 06:50:26
Mine doesn't go sharp. It's a slider.
All spikes go sharp by design: note that the string is always pulled out of straight by the spikes.
Joe Larson - Posted - 10/09/2009: 07:16:25
Only the spike at the 7th frets sharp on mine, the others are pretty much right on.
I wonder if the problem isn't with banjo's that have those 'pips' - little plastic fifth string nuts that hold the string above - and behind - the fifth fret. In order to get it in tune you'd have to tune the fifth with slightly more tension so that when you fret or capo it it's going to be sharp.
j
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user...&view=videos
There's more to life than playing the banjo, but not a lot more.
The Old Timer - Posted - 10/09/2009: 07:18:59
Earl Scruggs advised in his book back in the 1960s to remove the 5th string nut, and put a spike back there behind the 5th string to hold it in place laterally. By having the string rest right on the 5th fret, he claimed that would eliminate the need to tune when capoing the 5th string with more spikes. There have been BHO threads discussing the practicalities of doing this.
I guess in electric guitars they call that the "zero fret" concept". There is a fret immediately in front of the nut, that all the strings rest on.
I believe Earl, but I never tried it. Didn't have the nerve to fuss with pulling out the 5th string nute and filling it back in with something. I just know from experience "about" how much to drop the 5th string when I capo it. On a good day, I can do it accurately without even striking the string to hear it.
The Old Timer
"Do you know how long it takes to charm people from Maine? They're uptight white people coated with a hard exterior made from other uptight white people." Joel Stein, TIME magazine Oct. 12, 2009
desert rose - Posted - 10/09/2009: 07:29:47
Here are some pointers to get quality performance from spikes
1. The fifth string nut MUST have the slot lowered so the fifth fret is the terminating point for the string not the nut.
Otherwise you are pulling the string out of tune when you spike
2. The spikes must be put in the fingerboard directly under the string NOT staggeded like they did in the sixtys.
Its extra work and requires attention to detail, but works best.
3. The spike must be placed the proper distance between the frets. To far away from the spiked fret and the string wont sound clear, to close and it will be sharp.
Follow all these pointers and you will have spikes as good as you will ever need very little or no retuning
Here is a picture showing the location that works for me and the fretwire I use
http://www.turtlehillbanjo.com/imag...ahogany.html
Scott
Desert Rose Musical Instruments
www.desertrosebanjo.com
Edited by - desert rose on 10/09/2009 07:36:39
Glenn Tate - Posted - 10/09/2009: 07:41:07
Mine goes a little sharp also, but can quickly be adjusted, and is not a problem. The biggest problem I have is that the spikes get in the way of fretting the 5th string and getting a clear or exact note.
"Politicians are like diapers, both should be changed regularly, for the same reason."
Glenn
beegee - Posted - 10/09/2009: 08:00:42
That's what the tuning pegs are for. You'll never have any string in perfect tune when you capo with spikes or with a regular capo.
__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca
guitdawg - Posted - 10/09/2009: 09:13:13
On my camping/back up/ beater banjo (Good Time II) my spikes are dead even, once I re-tune to them. That is to say, if the string is at pitch on the fifth string spike, when I re-spike elsewhere (my banjo looks as though it is stitched together - spikes 6-10  ), the remaining spikes are equally tuned. When I return to the fifth fret spike, I have to adjust the fifth string. I do not need to re-tune when using any of the other spikes. Weird~
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"You make my words, I'm gonna get my grade ten!" - Ricky
"Tradition is a moving target" Chip Arnold
~ guitdawg ~ Apple Latch Un = mountains ; Apple Layshun = drinks
sgill - Posted - 10/09/2009: 09:22:53
To add to Scott's post I find the following to work well.
) drill the hole for the nail next to the top of the string centered between the fretts. That puts the head under the string.
) file the top of the head a little so it is thinner. That will leave the bottom of the head higher when the top is set to the correct depth.
) drive the nail down so the top of the nail is the same height as the frett. This way the string is not pulled down as far and therefore it doesn't go sharper
You have to make sure you do what Scott said about the 5th frett otherwise your in trouble before you start.
This method gives excellent results and you can capo without retuning the 5th.
Steve Gill
RB5 - Posted - 10/09/2009: 09:31:24
I have spikes on two of my banjo's and always have to re-tune fifth string a bit but don't have to with my shubbs fifth string capo. My spikes are positioned at the same place behind the fret as Scott's Desert Rose banjo's are.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it!
Robert.
The Pope - Posted - 10/09/2009: 10:26:27
One of my banjos has the 5th pip removed and a spike in it's place as mentioned by The Old Timer and Scott. It works a lot better (tuning wise) than the pip but even then, putting the string under the spike stretches it out of tune just a bit...
The Pope
KI #9
2 parts Masterclones
"Learn a few chords on the banjo, it's the key to life."
Vince Gill
JIMBO53 - Posted - 10/09/2009: 11:50:01
If the string is hard to slide under the spike, it WILL be noticably sharp. I use an old set of automotive feeler gauges to set the space under the spike, usually just a tad higher then the thickness of the string. The spike by it's nature and purpose stretches the string down between the frets, so minimizing the amount the string is stretched will minimize how sharp the string will play. Like Ronnie said, nature of the beast.
"Life Has Been Easier On Me Than Any Lazy Person Like Myself Has The Right To Expect"-Pete Seeger
Just Bill - Posted - 10/09/2009: 17:16:32
I see we're all in the same boat when it comes to spikes. It's not a big deal and easy to retune it slightly.
On my banjo, the fifth string frets just a little sharp with spikes, but when I fret the fifth string with my finger, it's right on pitch.
Now for a follow up question: How many of you with a Shubb fifth string capo experience the fifth string fretting sharp when you capo it with the Shubb? (I notice Richard Dress says his doesn't fret sharp because he uses a slider...Richard, do you mean a Shubb fifth string capo? --since it slides, too.)
My own experience with the Shubb is that it keeps the fifth string right on pitch (as long as the picker doesn't "crank it down" hard).
What say you all?
Bill
Proud to be a "MURPHY HENRY-ITE"
"If you ain't different, you ain't normal!"
desert rose - Posted - 10/09/2009: 17:23:44
Steve
Glad to see you drop in here!
We are on the exact same page with the spike installation, thats exactly how I do it too. and with the same results
Scott
Desert Rose Musical Instruments
www.desertrosebanjo.com
Dale Harrison - Posted - 10/09/2009: 19:30:52
Bill, I have had that problem for many years. I just got used to it and kept on pickin'. Dale
Gomer - Posted - 10/09/2009: 21:20:24
I thought you might be talking about the spikes themselves being sharp. I never thought about the tone before.
When I try to slide the string under the spike, it always takes a chunk out of my finger. Am I alone?
( )=====’==::
Abundant Opinions - Speculative Advice - Marginal Judgment
gdoc - Posted - 10/09/2009: 22:53:42
Seems the main point here has been missed all together.... It's a banjo.... they are always out of tune it seems. Ever notice at any festival, it's always the banjo player who is tuning? Personaly, I'm blessed.... I have a dead ear to tuning.... sad for my guitar friend though who has perfect pitch ear....
He tried tuning my banjo once... 15 minutes later he gave it back and said he'd never grip at me again about tuning a banjo.... and it was a Stelling! Not a cheapiee.
I am sure we have all heard it before, but the best way to tune a banjo is with a pair of wire cutters.
gdoc
JIMBO53 - Posted - 10/10/2009: 03:47:51
One of my favorite banjo jokes: How long does it take to tune a banjo?? No one knows
"Life Has Been Easier On Me Than Any Lazy Person Like Myself Has The Right To Expect"-Pete Seeger
banjobilly32 - Posted - 10/10/2009: 05:13:31
That's the main difference between a banjo and a Harley Davison, You can tune a Harley!
Without the problem with the spikes we wouldn't get to play that Chinese number as much! (Tuning)
Like Old Timer says, if you practice it enough you get a feel for how much you need to turn the tuner to compensate. Watch most of the pros, usually one note and they are right on when they do capo.
pickNgrin - Posted - 10/10/2009: 05:59:19
If you have a 5th string pip (the little nut thing for the 5th string) that is not exactly in line with the 5th fret, then spiking or fretting the 5th string will make it go sharp every time. It HAS to.
Think about it... if the pip is slightly behind the 5th fret, then every 5th string fret up the neck would have to be similarly set back in order to make it play in tune. But they're not.. they are in the usual location. The pip being out of position is not too different from the bridge being out of position... it has to adversely affect the intonation as a matter of simple physics.
As has already been mentioned, the solution is to make sure that the 5th string "nut" is in the right spot. Here is a nice writeup by Frank Ford that illustrates the problem and shows some ways to correct it: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Mus.../5thnut.html
-matt
Edited by - pickNgrin on 10/10/2009 06:01:38
dfo - Posted - 10/10/2009: 11:14:56
How can you space the dam spikes, so you can still play Banjo signal with out constantly hitting the spikes?
Richard Dress - Posted - 10/10/2009: 11:33:33
"Now for a follow up question: How many of you with a Shubb fifth string capo experience the fifth string fretting sharp when you capo it with the Shubb? (I notice Richard Dress says his doesn't fret sharp because he uses a slider...Richard, do you mean a Shubb fifth string capo? --since it slides, too.)" -- #8747;ill
I can't tune my banjo in a noisy environment. Don't have good ears, I guess. That's why both my banjos are set up with Adcock-style sliders. No on-stage tuning for me anymore. The trick is how they are installed: below the binding so it's out of the way. You have to re-bend the spring. I posted photos on my homepage.
Just Bill - Posted - 10/10/2009: 14:33:13
Good comment, Richard!
Proud to be a "MURPHY HENRY-ITE"
"If you ain't different, you ain't normal!"
banjer5 - Posted - 10/10/2009: 16:58:14
I'm kinda like Ronnie and others it does cause the fifth to go a little high and I adjust as necessary. I also keep an Intelli tuner on the peghead and use it as needed. I've never thought that the retuning was a big deal.............I just do it.
Fast Freddy the engineer says: Throttle in RUN 8 and highball, then don't look back, something might be gainin' on ya. 73,s de K5BGZ
3fingers - Posted - 10/10/2009: 18:14:39
Yep they go sharp but the spike placement does have a lot to do with it my old conversion I have to do very little retuning but my new 75 gets pulled WAY sharp. But its just the placement that causes it.
Craig
http://www.myspace.com/borrowedtyme2
Come along down to the barnyard lets have us a little banjer pickin
Jeremiah 6:16
Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8 10:9, 10:13, 1st John 5:10-13.
foggycoast - Posted - 10/11/2009: 09:44:32
One trick I find helps: After I put the string under the spike I gently press the string down toward the head with my picking hand. I suppose it pulls the string through the spike just a little. It seems to get the string closer to pitch.
mrbook - Posted - 10/11/2009: 17:19:14
Two of my banjos have spikes, which look neat but always require a bit of tuning. When playing on stage I usually use by banjo that came with a Shubb sliping capo, which is fast and always seems dead on - really important in one of my bands, because they start a song when they are ready rather than when I am.
Bill
Just Bill - Posted - 10/11/2009: 18:04:07
Good comments, Bill. Thanks for sharing! I agree with you: Although spikes are the more popular means of fretting the fifth string, its biggest (IMO) downsides are the sharp fretting and they get in the way when finger fretting the fifth string. The Shubb fifth string capo slide bar can also make it troublesome reaching around the neck to finger fret the fifth string, but (IMO) it frets true on the fifth string, eliminating any need to constantly have to re-tune the fifth string.
I may kick up a bit of a storm here, but at this point, I am inclined to pull my spikes and install a Shubb fifth string capo on my old Gibson. I had a Shubb installed on a previous banjo and enjoyed it completely. I'm quite tired of having the spikes in the way. To each his own--I don't disagree with those who prefer spikes, but after having used both over the course of 25 years, I think I'll go back to the Shubb.
Bill
Proud to be a "MURPHY HENRY-ITE"
"If you ain't different, you ain't normal!"
Edited by - Just Bill on 10/11/2009 18:05:02
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