Kemo Sabe - Posted - 10/04/2009:  09:09:30

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I have two songbooks with sheet music to the song 'Drifting Too Far From The Shore' and I notice:

1st book has the song 'Drifting Too Far From The Shore' with time signature 3/4 and shows (for example) 16 measures to a verse with 3 quarter note equivalents per measure.

2nd book has the same song with time signature 6/4 and shows (for example) 8 measures to a verse with 6 quarter note equivalents per measure.

The chords changes on syllables in the song are identical in both versions of sheet music (duh!).

My question - what is going on here? If I hear the song at a jam (where most likely nobody has the sheet music or even if they do have it) I am going to do a waltz type backup and I don't care if it is called 3/4 or 6/4. Why is the music written in different ways and does it make any real difference? If you just listen to the song can you identify it as "yep! that's a 6/4" .... or might you say "That is not a 6/4...it is 3/4)"?

Thanks for any comments.

Phil



"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

minstrelmike - Posted - 10/04/2009:  09:24:27

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My take on it is there are two completely different ways musicians think about timing. One is how it is written and folks who write stuff down can write 6/4 or 3/4 in pretty much the same way, just as 2/4 and 4/4 can be identically written.

OTOH, because of the inherent problems in writing rhythmic notation (it is _always_ wrong on complex stuff), most symphonic-trained musicians treat the key signature as a specific type of sound, 2/4 is 'cut-time' as opposed to 4/4 time. 6/4 is 'march time' as opposed to waltz time (3/4) and jig time (6/8).

If you wish for the symphonic folks to play the tune as a waltz, then the 6/4 sheet would be wrong (except there is no way to demonstrate the differences purely using divisional timing the way Western rhythm is written). However, my take on that songs is that it is a march and I would write it in 6/4 timing.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Greg Connor - Posted - 10/04/2009:  12:02:22

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I think I do that song in 4/4 time. I can see where one could do it in watlz time but that's not how I learned how to play it.

I guess that's the beauty of music! It's open to interpretation.

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 10/04/2009:  12:16:07

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Greg,

That's interesting and it reminds me of anothe 'variation' I have seen and heard on time signatures:

In one version of 'The Old Ruggged Cross' I see the sheet music and hear the song played in 6/8...... In another version I have (sheet music) and recorded version I see and hear it done in 4/4. I was especially surprised to see and hear it in 4/4. It all sounds great to me - I have no problem with the different versions.

I appreciate you and minstrelmike commenting and any other comments ....

Thanks,

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

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Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 10/04/2009 12:18:19

John Gribble - Posted - 10/04/2009:  13:34:16

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There is often (but not always) a "drive" or speed difference between the two. Think of the difference between "Down In The Valley" (3/4) and an Irish jig (6/8). There can also be an accent difference. In 3/4, the first count is usually emphasized, while in 6/8, stress falls on 1 and 4, but is usually a little lighter on 4.

A waltz is 3/4. Sometimes 6/8 is played as 2/4, but in triplets.

Hope that's not too murky. But there's no simple "One size fits all" answer to the issue.

John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan

derekanjo - Posted - 10/04/2009:  14:35:36

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Time signatures are written differently to express different emphasis on different beats. In 3/4, the strong beat is one. In 6/4, the strong beat is one and four...essentally a 6/8 pattern. It's rather hard to explain without being able to provide rhythmic examples...

Derek

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 10/04/2009:  18:27:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

My take on it is there are two completely different ways musicians think about timing. One is how it is written and folks who write stuff down can write 6/4 or 3/4 in pretty much the same way, just as 2/4 and 4/4 can be identically written.

OTOH, because of the inherent problems in writing rhythmic notation (it is _always_ wrong on complex stuff), most symphonic-trained musicians treat the key signature as a specific type of sound, 2/4 is 'cut-time' as opposed to 4/4 time. 6/4 is 'march time' as opposed to waltz time (3/4) and jig time (6/8).

If you wish for the symphonic folks to play the tune as a waltz, then the 6/4 sheet would be wrong (except there is no way to demonstrate the differences purely using divisional timing the way Western rhythm is written). However, my take on that songs is that it is a march and I would write it in 6/4 timing.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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I would suggest 2/4 is not cut time to most musicians, it's just duple time. 2/2 is cut time. Here's the thing about meter which some people miss because they think of it is strictly mathematical, counting terms- Time signatures are about meter- not just a repeating count of beats, but a repeating cycle of strong and weak pulses.

3/4 and 6/4 are arithmetically equal, but they do not represent the same pattern of strong and weak pulses

3/4 is simple duple meter indicating a pattern of 3 pulses, usually Strong weak weak each beat represented by a quarter note (crotchet?). 3/2 would represent the same meter, but each beat would be written as a half note- the would sound the same. 3/4. 3/2 and 3/8 would all subdivide each beat in half: 1 &2&3&, 12&3& etc.


6/4 is compound duple meter- two major beats, each of which is subdivided into three sub-beats- usually counted 1 23, 456 or 123, 223...

There is a world of difference in the expression of tunes such as a waltz in three vs a retreat march in 3 or The Start Spangled banner (also 3 and tunes in 6 which may be marches, jigs, or even 18th century hornpipes in 6/4.



I'll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I'll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron

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Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 10/04/2009 18:31:36

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/04/2009:  21:09:31

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I think 6/4 is correct. It has a 6 beat feel and is definitely not a waltz. While it can be played in 3/4 the sound really is in sixes. Think of the first 3 beats as being quite separate like a waltz, while the second 3 beats are very legado.
I played flamenco which has many rhythms based on 12 beats. Most of these are written in 3/4 measures with emphasis marks (>) over the important beats. I usually put in very light measure bars and tried to get my students to understand the rhythms before starting on tabs. All the rhythms can be stated as a combination of 2 and 3 beat phraselets. The simplest is the 1,2,3 1,2,3 1,2, 1,2 1,2 which is usually written as 6/4 Or 6/8. The first measure is two sets of 3 beats and the second is three sets of two beats. This is the rhythm of the song "America" in West Side Story.

My favourite rhythm was the siguiriyas with the main beats on 1,3,5,8,11 - or "1,2 1,2 1,2,3 1,2,3, 1,2". It is the same rhythm as the one above, but with the first beat moved to what is the 9th beat of the rhythm above.


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John Gribble - Posted - 10/05/2009:  15:02:17

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Open mouth, insert foot. I misread 6/4 as 6/8. But the issue of stressed count remains the same, "1" a strong stress, "4" slightly weaker. There is also the issue of harmonic movement (a fancy way to say "chord changes"). While a chord change can and often does occur anyplace, a time signature suggests the statistical average of where changes are likely to happen, the "1" count of a new measure. So in 3/4 one can reasonably expect a possible change every three counts, while in 6/4 the changes may come after six counts.

John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan

Joe Larson - Posted - 10/06/2009:  07:32:24

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But it's not just the math or the counting, it's the feel of the tune. Are the phrases complete in 3 beat or does it take 6? I've seen Bach's Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring written out in 3/4, 6/4, 6/8, and more correctly, IMO, in 9/8 because it takes 9 beats to complete the musical thought and the emphasis that comes on the 1 tells us that a new, or variant, thought is beginning.

Most of what the banjo plays in bluegrass is in 2 and is felt that way. But the songs are usually in 4 because of the phrasing; each line requiring 4 beats to complete.

Anyway that's how I see it.

j

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Edited by - Joe Larson on 10/06/2009 07:33:33