tomberghan - Posted - 09/30/2009:  22:44:18

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OK Clawhammer aficionados and experts please help me out. I am really getting into “Cumberland Gap Tuning” gEADE, or down a step, fDGCD. For solo play, I like fDGCD because it sounds very rich.

This tuning makes a lot of sense to me. It seems pretty versatile. Works well for F major (or G major) and some modes. And, from the major tonic, you can finger a really nice minor VI chord (like in Cumberland Gap)

I only have a few tabs, and the highest quality (IMHO) are from Mike Krassen’s “Clawhammer Banjo book:
* Cumberland Gap
* Stoney Point
* Teetotaller

Other than that, I have just been figuring out tunes in the tuning . . . and I really like it.

Does anyone have any tabs (in C.G. tuning that you wouldn’t mind sharing with me? (Or us?) Any and all pointers, suggestions and information are welcome.
Thanks and Best Regards,
Tom

Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/30/2009:  23:45:18

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Sounds interesting, though I tend to stick with the more standard tunings. I do use what I (and many others) call "Cumberland Gap tuning:" f#BEAD, but I know that there's more than one so called. Stony Point (which has more names than about any tune) and Teetotaler play just fine in standard G tuning. That said, a tuning that you find intriguing and useful is always a good thing.

Bill

w. rogers - Posted - 10/01/2009:  04:30:02

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I like to play Cumberland Gap in gEADE, but I also use f#BEAD and even aDADE.
For more tunes in the gEADE-tuning ask Adam Hurt(Clawhammerist), he's a real expert. He plays a lot of G-tunes in this tuning.

Best regards,
Paul

w. rogers

Don Borchelt - Posted - 10/01/2009:  04:35:27

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In his classic book, John Burke has four tunes set in Sawmill tuning, following this same general concept- Sail Away Ladies, Sally Johnson, Blackberry Blossom, and Wild Horse at Stoney Point. The only difference is that Burke doesn't retune the 5th string, choosing instead to generally avoid the string, using it only melodically. I've scanned the tab of Sail Away Ladies (staying within the limits of "fair use"), to illustrate the point. He only hits the 5th string five times in the A part, and never in the B part. With just a little tinkering, you could transpose Burke's settings to your Cumberland Gap tuning.



I believe the book is out of print, but there are seven used copies for sale on Amazon, starting at $60 - $.01.

John Burke's Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo on Amazon



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My mission in life is really very simple. I want to make somebody's dinner better." - Chef Paul Prudhomme
Check out my webpage.

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 10/01/2009 04:43:23

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/01/2009:  06:04:47

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Don,

could you please indicate where are the barlines?
And those MMTs noted as three eight notes are what - triplets or wrongly notated bum-ditties?

Thanks
Mirek

_________________________________________________________________
Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string):
Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo
Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo
http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatek
WORKSHOPS at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944

LyleK - Posted - 10/01/2009:  06:34:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mirek Patek
Don,
could you please indicate where are the barlines?
And those MMTs noted as three eight notes are what - triplets or wrongly notated bum-ditties?

---

Reading those Burke tabs is a pretty messy affair. The things that look like triplets are indeed quarter notes followed by two eighth notes. The things that look like quarter notes followed by "stemless" notes are hammer-ons that result in two eighth notes. And then the barline placement is pretty random in his tabs. With the Sail Away Ladies tab he didn't indicate that the first two eighth notes are pick-up notes. Hopefully this "secret decoder ring" is enough to make sense of the tab. If not, post again to this thread and I can move Burke's tab to Tabledit (where it has to "add up").

On gEADE tuning (I don't use fDGCD because I usually play on a "short scale" fretless), I've got tabs for five tunes at the web-site listed in my signature. They are near the bottom of the tabs, in a group labeled "another G tuning." The *.mp3s for those tunes are at:

A medley of gEADE: http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...usicid=12357

Big Scioty: http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...usicid=12778



LyleK
http://lylewk.home.comcast.net

Uncle Sinner - Posted - 10/01/2009:  07:03:46

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it's also a good tuning for "shady grove" and "little maggie", a la Lee Sexton.

majikgator - Posted - 10/01/2009:  07:37:15

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i guess i don't understand where the 5th string tuned to F works in a Sawmill tuning, but then again i have had Miles Krassen's clawhammer book longer than any other book i have and haven't found anything in it i have used, maybe i will revisit his cumberland gap and see how it holds up, maybe i will find one arrangement to justify my $4.95 outlay, i started playing that tune in f#BEAD (instead of G) because that's what i was told was a Cumberland Gap tuning and that is also how Frank Proffitt plays it and Paul Brown uses that tuning a lot. unfortunately i have a hard time getting it tuned down there on my banjo (think i need better tuners).

jk

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Edited by - majikgator on 10/01/2009 07:38:43

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/01/2009:  07:40:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by LyleK

The things that look like triplets are indeed quarter notes followed by two eighth notes. ... With the Sail Away Ladies tab he didn't indicate that the first two eighth notes are pick-up notes.

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Part A is clear now, thanks, Lyle. (Part B not yet, but I'll figure out).

Mirek

_________________________________________________________________
Conversion of 5-string banjo tunings to fingerstyle tenor banjo (omit 2nd string):
Open G tuning gDGBD or Sawmill tuning gDGCD => DGdg tuning of tenor banjo
Classic C tuning gCGBD or Double C tuning gCGCD => CGdg tuning of tenor banjo
http://www.mirekpatek.com http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatek
WORKSHOPS at Johnny Keenan Banjo Festival:
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=157944

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 10/01/2009:  07:55:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by majikgator

i guess i don't understand where the 5th string tuned to F works in a Sawmill tuning, but then again i have had Miles Krassen's clawhammer book longer than any other book i have and haven't found anything in it i have used, maybe i will revisit his cumberland gap and see how it holds up, maybe i will find one arrangement to justify my $4.95 outlay, i started playing that tune in f#BEAD (instead of G) because that's what i was told was a Cumberland Gap tuning and that is also how Frank Proffitt plays it and Paul Brown uses that tuning a lot. unfortunately i have a hard time getting it tuned down there on my banjo (think i need better tuners).

jk

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When did you buy it for $ 4.95? I have a very old copy - and I've found a lot of good stuff in it.

********************************************************************'
Adam Hurt is coming to Albuquerque to perform a solo gig
on October 8th. Also will be holding fiddle and banjo classes.
Balloon Fiesta Week - you might want to plan a trip and join
the fun and lovely weather.
Email me for more information: inquiry@siliconheights.com
*********************************************************************

Supertone - Posted - 10/01/2009:  07:59:59

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One thing I've messed with is to play Cumberland Gap in the key of F in standard G tuning capoed on the second fret. It simulates gEADE without having to retune on the fly. I have a fingerstyle version of it here:
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...musicid=8905

Great tune!

tomberghan - Posted - 10/01/2009:  12:20:11

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Don – That is a really pretty arrangement of Sail Away Ladies. Thank you very much, and the point is well taken about the relationship to Sawmill.

Lyle – You are a new find for me. I really, really enjoy your playing and your web site will help me immensely. Thank you for putting your work (tabs and recordings) out there on the web. I am burning a CD of your recordings and will enjoy and study them often.

Supertone John – You are also a new find. You are being downloaded as well! (Sounds like Star-Trek huh? “Resistance is futile – you will be downloaded and assimilated.” Hey – Gus Cannon, Mississippi Sheiks; now that’s music. Thank you friend.

And my sincere thanks to everyone else for the links and suggestions.

I guess I have also learned that this tuning is NOT the tuning banjoists commonly refer to as Cumberland.

What ever it is called, I love the sound of this tuning. I haven't been playing banjo all that long and I have mainly focused on gCGCD, then gDGBD, and Sawmill gDGCD. So this is a new tuning for me. Yes, I know there a zillion more tunings to learn, but I want to take it slow and really learn these tunings so that I can "think" in these tunings . . . and for me that takes time. I am probably stretching my poor brain too thin as it is, so I guess I will try to stick with just these for a while. That would be the wise thing to do. Fat chance right?

By the way . . . the Krassen book still says $4.95 right one the front cover, but lists for 19.95. It would probably cost the publisher more to change the cover than it would be worth (no return on investment). I agree with Banjo Judy, I enjoy Krassen's book very much and recommend it highly.

My web site:
www.cs.dartmouth.edu/berghan

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/01/2009:  13:04:25

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Judy when you tune the 5th down a full tone in sawmill you end up in the key of the fifth string. So if you are in sawmill G and tune the 5th to F you end up in F. It is one of the tunings I'm trying out for the F tunes my wife has gotten into.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/01/2009:  13:06:03

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Mirak
I've been told that if you simply ignore where Burke put the measure bars you will get the tune right. I have ot admit I gave up on the book after 10 minutes myself.



http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/01/2009:  13:10:51

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There are THREE tunings called "Cumberland Gap Tuning" in the list on Zepp's website. I don't use any of them. I play two different (but closely related) versions of Gap, one in Double D (DC capo 2) and one in G (F tuning capo) I call this tuning old G. Both Gaps have 3 parts. The D version we play at a lot of jams. We got the G version from Georgia fiddler Foncee Kenimer around 1983


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 10/01/2009:  16:45:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Judy when you tune the 5th down a full tone in sawmill you end up in the key of the fifth string. So if you are in sawmill G and tune the 5th to F you end up in F. It is one of the tunings I'm trying out for the F tunes my wife has gotten into.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

---

I think was Magikgator's question, not mine, but I don't play anything in F, and I refuse to do windows - so that's my take on all this.

However, I do like playing in the key of F on the banjo uke - so many great tunes with words I tend to forget....hard to remember much these days....ah youth - remember how quickly we learned in elementary school, and the tunes still stick in my mind - but teach me one today, and I cannot recall it in the morning.

********************************************************************'
Adam Hurt is coming to Albuquerque to perform a solo gig
on October 8th. Also will be holding fiddle and banjo classes.
Balloon Fiesta Week - you might want to plan a trip and join
the fun and lovely weather.
Email me for more information: inquiry@siliconheights.com
*********************************************************************

majikgator - Posted - 10/01/2009:  19:20:56

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Well thanks for the "F" thing Tony, i'll check that out, Banjojudy, i don't think i have had the Miles Krassen book for all that many years (this time), it was the only Clawhammer book at the store, it says $4.95 right on the front cover, that and my stinginess led me to believe that's what i paid but i'm sure it was less than $19.95, for me every time i half learn an arrangement in that book i find one i like better, i was very disappointed with it because the little record only had a couple of the tunes from the book and none i wanted to learn and i remebered very sadly how that put me off learning clawhammer 35 years ago, i might have been half decent by now had their been an instructor, mentor or the kind of learning tools around then that there are now, a lot has changed but i will learn as much as i can while God keeps me here, i sure am greatful for all the aids (like BHO) that we have today.

jk

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Edited by - majikgator on 10/01/2009 19:28:07

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/01/2009:  19:37:12

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I get the quotes and other things mixed up - talk about not being able to learn so fast anymore, I can get completely flummoxed by the discussions in the "Music Theory" forum. Those guys seem to talk in quadratic equations.

I can't remember anything I played on the ukulele, and eventually got so frustrated by the new uke I got a couple years ago that I ended up tuning it like my banjo - just higher than the standard DGBD - Perhaps a 5th higher - it has been a while. I tend to strum it a lot in DADE tuning (again moved up about a 5th - sounds cool and I can frail with that high D on the 4th string since it is close to, if not at A. I have a tenor banjo strung the same way but at concert pitch. Both are strung with nylon which is pretty forgiving. Someday I'll have to organize my thinking on them.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

pernicketylad - Posted - 10/02/2009:  13:20:36

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Cumberland Gap is the next tune I'm going to learn so what festival-friendly tuning should I learn it in?
I like the version in Brad Leftwich's book/cd and he plays it in f#BEAD tuned up two half-steps....g#C#F#BE.
Is f#BEAD the standard and what key does this put the tune in?

P.S. I don't want to learn three different versions as I have about twenty "embarrassed I don't know them" standards I have to learn first.

There are three types of people in the world.....those who can count and those who can't!

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Edited by - pernicketylad on 10/02/2009 13:22:24

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/02/2009:  16:03:23

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Pernickity
The most common version around here is in D which I play in Double Capo 2. Double D uncapoed is the Round Peak tuning for CG and the three part version TJ played is the inspiration for most players around here - at least among jammers. Solo players tend to have more idiosyncratic versions since they don't have to blend in with others.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

majikgator - Posted - 10/02/2009:  16:25:10

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The f#BEAD tuning for Cumberland Gap (the song) will be in the Key of D but low as opposed to the Double D which is more common, i started using that tuning to play "Down to Tampa" and have it sound halfway close to Paul Brown, he use this tuning to play in the Key of D a lot at least on that song and a few others on "Red Clay Country"an interesting way to do it, otherwise i have to tune to double C and Capo 2, because my banjo doesn't sound or feel right to me tuned up (or capoed for that matter, but the lesser of two evils). i thought most people played Cumberland Gap in G tuning, but i guess that's folkies and BG players, i would like to hear this "popular" version, is there a youtube or BHO recording of it?

jk

tomberghan - Posted - 10/02/2009:  16:38:02

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Personally I would use the fDGCD and play it in F-Major, or, if you are jamming with a fiddle or guitar, and they prefer G-Major, then just capo on the 2nd fret. I say this for a couple reasons. I spend the "lion's share" of my time in G-tuning (gDGBD) or double-C (gCGCD) or Sawmill (gDGCD). So, that being the case, I can get to fDGCD easily with minimal disruption. I personally think f#BEAD is too big a change just to play a couple of tunes. Now if I had a whole handful of pieces in that tuning that would be different. And for me, being able to "think" in the tuning is very important, and to me fDGCD is close enough to the other tunings I use that I can still know the notes I am playing (either for jamming, sight reading, or if a fiddler or someone is explaining what they want from me and they are speaking in "note-names."

I think if you browse through the BHO jukebox you will find that most of the clawhammer examples are using fDGCD (I believe that to be true).

Also, I find Brad's version in his Round Peak book is a little too "simple" and not the strongest arrangement of Cumberland Gap in my humble opinion. (but everyone is critique). I think if you learn that version and then ask the average person to "name that tune," they will say "Umm" But don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of Brad and I love the book.

Here listen to this version. Simple, nice, catchy, toe-tappin', sounds like the Cumberlad Gap we all know and love (common melody I learned in school as a child), and not too hard to learn . . . and, I think he is in fDGCD

http://www.banjohangout.ws/banjohan...11632008.mp3

Well that is one opinion!

pernicketylad - Posted - 10/02/2009:  17:50:36

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Cheers lads........still a bit confused but I might go for double C as I'm familiar with that tuning!

There are three types of people in the world.....those who can count and those who can't!

farmer bob - Posted - 10/02/2009:  19:12:04

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I play CG in double C tuning not because its better but just because I play most everything in doubleC and Im too lazy to re tune. I will agree that if you tune to F# BEAD... The tune CG almost naturally jumps out of the banjo just by blowing on the strings. From a guitar players point of view F# BEAD is easier to play as accompaniment because all you do is capo the guitar at the second fret and play around an open D chord and you got Cumberland Gap... BTW I live in Cumberland County and have my own version of the tune... Bob.

tomberghan - Posted - 10/03/2009:  10:03:43

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You know, it’s funny. You can go to Amazon.com and search MP3 recordings, and for the title, put in Cumberland Gap. You will get hundreds of recordings that you can sample, from very old to very new.

It is amusing to listen to the lyrics. Some say “14 miles on the Cumberland Gap” . . . some say 15 miles, 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20!

My wife turns to me says “I guess it depended as to exactly where on the trail John Lomax was standing with his tape recorder.”

Clawdan - Posted - 10/03/2009:  10:28:36

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I've wondered about whether or not mr burke is still among us. I'd sure like to get his permission to relayout the book and see about getting it back in print.

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain't no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Now teaching Clawhammer Banjo and Old Time Fiddle at San Diego Old Time Music
Get started with Dan's Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications) THEN:
Come to Clawcamp! www.ClawCamp.com

LyleK - Posted - 10/03/2009:  11:56:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clawdan
I've wondered about whether or not mr burke is still among us. I'd sure like to get his permission to relayout the book and see about getting it back in print.

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That would be great! There is a facebook entry for him at http://www.facebook.com/people/John...ke/630417816

LyleK
http://lylewk.home.comcast.net

vrteach - Posted - 10/03/2009:  12:03:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clawdan

I've wondered about whether or not mr burke is still among us. I'd sure like to get his permission to relayout the book and see about getting it back in print.

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There is a John Burke who posts on FIDDLE-L, same person?

Erich --
http://vrteach.org/banjo/
http://prairiegrapevine.org/
U of Illinois-Springfield Old Time Music

The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.

Bertrand Russell

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/04/2009:  09:44:14

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Re: John Burke. He's alive and well, playing fiddle in Seattle; see: http://ryegrassband.com/index.htm

As to his tab: When that book was written, there was no standardized tab system. Many, myself included, developed their own idiosyncratic tab systems. Burke was no different. My tab was even stranger; it had to be used with a recording of the tune (conveniently supplied when you took lessons with me) and was, I think, much more explicit about what the left hand was doing than current tab systems.

Bill

matt m - Posted - 10/11/2009:  07:49:56

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I really like the Cumberland Gap tuning too, and I also really enjoy Krassen's tab of the song. The other tabs he gives in this tuning aren't quite as strong, I feel.

I started picking out the melody to 'Johnson Boys' in that tuning. Give it a try - it's not difficult to figure out.

I also noticed that the Simon & Garfunkel song 'El Condor Pasa' works well in this tuning. It's the one that goes 'I'd rather be a hammer than a nail... yes I would' etc etc

myspace.com/matthewradmoremilton

matt m - Posted - 10/11/2009:  07:50:44

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I really like the Cumberland Gap tuning too, and I also really enjoy Krassen's tab of the song. The other tabs he gives in this tuning aren't quite as strong, I feel.

I started picking out the melody to 'Johnson Boys' in that tuning. Give it a try - it's not difficult to figure out.

I also noticed that the Simon & Garfunkel song 'El Condor Pasa' works well in this tuning. It's the one that goes 'I'd rather be a hammer than a nail... yes I would' etc etc

myspace.com/matthewradmoremilton

matt m - Posted - 10/13/2009:  15:16:02

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Was playing in this tuning today and found you can play 'Darling Cora' the way BF Shelton plays it very well in this tuning. Pete Seeger tabs it in his book, but in a way that I've never felt convinced by - doesn't seem to be the most ergonomic way to play the riff that Shelton played. Whereas it's much more manageable, and easier to play at speed, in Cumberland Gap tuning.

myspace.com/matthewradmoremilton

rhyzome - Posted - 10/14/2009:  11:25:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by tomberghan

It is amusing to listen to the lyrics. Some say “14 miles on the Cumberland Gap” . . . some say 15 miles, 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20!

My wife turns to me says “I guess it depended as to exactly where on the trail John Lomax was standing with his tape recorder.”

---

But the important thing is that you take a little nap...

The "Cumberland Gap" tuning is a great one for the key of F (when you just drop the 5th string to F out of the Sawmill tuning), affording great transitions to the G minor. Although not a traditional tune, I found it fun to play around with Tennessee Stud in this tuning...