Banjorb3 - Posted - 09/30/2009:  11:50:58

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the sound generated on the old Gibson flatheads made by the head being about as tight as it could be? I say this because when I first started playing in the mid 60s, everybody seemed to set up his banjo that way, and many of the greats advocated this. Head pitch was somewhere in the B to C range.

Nowadays the "proper" pitch is in the neighborhood of G#. So how can you get a prewar sound - even from an old flathead - with a head that loose?

JKS

steve davis - Posted - 09/30/2009:  12:01:47

G# isn't loose...it just isn't cranked to within a tweak of it's life.

I like the overall tone of a banjo better with a not too tight head and a bridge that hasn't been thinned way down.

I don't like the sound of a screaming tight head whether it's on a pre war or a new one.

There is no universally proper set up in my book,just the way I want it to sound.

banjer5 - Posted - 09/30/2009:  12:39:29

Earl complained that getting head tension to stay just right would be a crapshoot because of humidity with calfskin heads. Most seem to like the head tension somewhere around G# but personally I like a bit tighter for flatheads. For archtops quite a bit tighter with other tweaks like thinned bridges. That makes them sound right to my ears. You are right that at one time we tightened them awful tight and only stopped when we were happy with the sound.

Fast Freddy the engineer says: Throttle in RUN 8 and highball, then don't look back, something might be gainin' on ya. 73,s de K5BGZ

mikieb53 - Posted - 09/30/2009:  12:40:13

If you know someone whose instrument you really like the sound of, contact them directly and they will almost certainly be happy to describe their set-up. I have done this several times and everyone has been very forthcoming with all the relevant info.

The two banjos I've heard that I like the best are both Osborne Chiefs. One belongs to Dale Vanderpool in Columbus, OH (it is #2). The other is Kristin Scott Benson's, which is quite new. Both are absolute tone canons, and sound better to my ear than half the pre-wars I've heard. Some of that is set-up, and the rest is the person doing the picking.

I think we should come up with a different adjective than "prewar" to describe the sound we like. Pre-war tone is all over the map, and so are individual tastes.

Michael B. Rentz

mburk5 - Posted - 09/30/2009:  14:10:43

I have a Gibson Earl Scruggs and I set my head tension at 89 on a drum dial,89 is not real tight but gives me the pre war sound,but there is more than just head tension that gives the pre war sound,like Michael says set up is one way but I have found that changing picks gives different sounds,stainless versus nickle,and yes the person doing the picking.

bnj - Posted - 09/30/2009:  14:16:35

You know I agree with this topic, I know alot of the setup has to do with what different people want to hear, but this prewar tone that their calling prewar to me isn't prewar. I listened to countless records, tapes, and cd's, seemed like the Banjo players down through the years have had their own sound, tone, and style, but when people talk about prewar sound those banjos had skin heads and was continously having to tighten and adjust them. The weather having alot to do with the sound that day they were playing. The prewar thing to me "and I know it's probuably going to make alot of people upset," prewar isn't nothing but just a sells pitch in this day and time. This person is making a prewar sounding banjo, prewar tone ring, prewar rim, prewar heads, prewar strings, and the list goes on... But this don't mean nothing if you can't play it. Stop worrying about what your banjo sounds like and stop worrying about what other people say about it. Set it up the way you want it to sound like. And if this tubby, barrely, so called prewar sound that you hear now I don't won't nothing to do with it. There so many times I turn on the radio and listen to one band after the other and all the banjo players sound alike to me, not by their style of playing but just there tones. But when some of the older band, like The Country Gentlemen or Bill Monroe's Bluegrass Boys come on I can tell you exactly who's playing. I don't see with the setup's now of days how they get the cut out of the banjo's with that G or G# tuning. One of my pet peeves is going out playing somewhere and getting done playing and another banjo picker comes up to me and says, " Man that a GOOD sounding Banjo!" Then gets to looking at it and tells me what I need to do it, or tells me something about my setup. Just leave my banjo alone, don't touch it, or you'll get a old time PREWAR cussing.
Yah I'm one of them that believes in a tight setup. My heads almost a B. But when you come in to a room full of jamming you're going to know who's picking, cause I'm cutting all them G# out of it. Someone needs to come up with a prewar tunner that might help alot of pickers.

steve davis - Posted - 09/30/2009:  14:21:55

One of my banjos has a head tuned to G# and the other is about A.

Neither of these banjos sound tubby and they cut in a big jam just fine.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 09/30/2009:  14:26:50

I agree that we should come up with a better name than "prewar". That tells you nothing. For instance, I have a (1928) prewar Granada with an archtop. It's absolutely prewar, with all its original parts, sounds fantastic, and can eat a lot of flatheads for lunch, but it's not the the sound most of you guys are talking about. It would be the Ralph Stanley Doug Dillard sound (?) So what's the prewar flat sound? I think it would help many many people if we could come up with good names for these "elusive" sounds. There are new people on this forum who would like to understand what all this is about. I've posed the question a couple of times but never get a satisfying answer. Is there actually such a sound, or is it an philosophical/existential exercise? I have been playing the banjo for 45 years. I am beginning to doubt the existence of anyone's ability to define "the prewar sound" in a way that say, an intelligent and musically trained person could comprehend.
Sorry for the diatribe-there are a lot of poopy-cakes in the pasture where the bulls hang out.

On the actual question, I heard Earl Scruggs say on a radio interview that they used to "tighten the head until it broke and then back off a little". Plastic heads can pretty much destroy the banjo if you tighten them too much because they won't break.

I had to replace a number of the hooks on my old Granada because they had broken at the bend where they fit into the notches in the tension hoop, from excessive head tightening sometime in the past.

Pepper Laing - Posted - 09/30/2009:  14:27:58

I think alot of the "PRE WAR" sound is the recording techniques and microphondes used in the day.

www.myspace.com/pepperlaingt...nestarkillers

steve davis - Posted - 09/30/2009:  14:42:30

There have been various setups used in the past and they all sounded good in the hands of talented players.
The archtop players like Allen Shelton,Doug Dillard,etc. sound fine.
Bobby Thompson's Baldwin and earlier 250 Gibson...very fine sounding.

Larry McNeely on an archtop Gibson...wonderful
Vic Jordan on a tight flathead...great

I don't know all the names and setups,but when something is played well
by a talented player,it don't hardly matter what banjo is used.

A well set up banjo at any price won't sound good in the hands of an inexperienced player.

A great banjo won't make someone a great player.This must be learned and developed over time.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 09/30/2009:  15:37:57

In terms of what Pepper says about recording, we get a lot of our information from those recordings and how they did it, what player, what instrument is what we think of as the banjo sound. We all know that a vintage Scruggs recording of Foggy Mt. Breakdown, using a skin head and old recording equipment was used in the movie "Bonnie and Clyde". They had that old Scruggs recording for the main song, but needed additional banjo music throughout the movie. All the other music was done by Douglas Dillard with an arch-top.

NYCJazz - Posted - 10/01/2009:  08:33:06

Can anyone point me to a recording of the "Pre-War" sound that was actually recorded before 1941?

just curious.

PaulKirby - Posted - 10/01/2009:  09:12:06

Probably can't point you to a recording of the Pre-War sound that was actually recorded before 1941, but you know this already, which is why you posed the question. And you probably know already that 'Pre-war' means the date of manufacture of the instrument, and not necessarily the recording. You also probably know, clever duck that you are, that the earliest recordings of 'that sound' are Bill Monroe's Chicago sessions from 16 September 1946. My my my. So clever! I'd never guess you were a banjo player!

http://www.kateyzbb.com/
http://www.americanmadebanjo.com/

Nobody cares if you can't dance well. Just get up and dance. Great dancers are not great because of their technique, they are great because of their passion.
--Martha Graham

NYCJazz - Posted - 10/01/2009:  10:02:00

Easy there Paul.

When was the movie "Bonnie & Clyde" set?

BTW I actually WAS interested in knowing what was considered the earliest BG recording, so...

Thanks!

PaulKirby - Posted - 10/01/2009:  10:08:52

Sorry.

I did a little research, and there is a set of field recordings called American Banjo: 3-finger and Scruggs style, and although the field recordings date from the 1950s, there were other people playing the 3-finger style concurrent with Earl Scruggs arrival on the scene in Bill Monroe's band in 1945. There are people here on the hangout that probably have more knowledge about this than I do, but it's likely that 'that sound' is around earlier than 1945, but the first recording of it is probably the aforementioned Monroe sessions from September '46.

Bonnie and Clyde met at a party 5 january 1930.

Sorry again for my bad temper and sharp tongue.



http://www.kateyzbb.com/
http://www.americanmadebanjo.com/

Nobody cares if you can't dance well. Just get up and dance. Great dancers are not great because of their technique, they are great because of their passion.
--Martha Graham

Edited by - PaulKirby on 10/01/2009 10:10:34

Gomer - Posted - 10/01/2009:  20:22:25

I think the thing that many people fail to appreciate is the post pre-war/pre-post war sound. Many ears are not so sophisticated as to be able to pick up the subtle difference in banjo voice, but to those who know banjo, it's right there. I describe it as roughly following the pre-war but not the same as post-war. Earl and the Dillard family were contractually bound not to discuss the matter except amongst themselves and have honored that commitment to this day.

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