|
Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.
Neil D - Posted - 09/12/2009: 12:47:00
I was reading the text to one of the Tunes in Tony T's 'Fiddle Tunes for the banjo' book (marvelous book) and was left a little confused with one of his coments relating to a tune. Unfortunately I can't remeber the name of the tune and don't have the book to hand but in anycase maybe someone can answer me anyway.
Basically he is refering to an old time tune in G which he makes a case for having no chords. The tune is tabbed out of G modal tuning (B raised to a C) and the C is a commonly recurring note in the melody. He suggests this makes for merky tonalities"i.e. is it major or is it minor". How is this so?, raising the B to a C means that the fourth note of the G major scale commonly recurrs in the tune but this is still in the G major scale? As far as I can remember there was no flat third in the tune so why would the 'tonalities' be merky?
I admit that despite my reasoning they sound merky!
Joe Larson - Posted - 09/12/2009: 13:28:50
Precisely because there is no flat - or major - third, the tune lacks a definite tonality and keeps an off-balance kind of feel. At least to western ears used to tunes being either major or minor exclusively.
j
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user...&view=videos
There's more to life than playing the banjo, but not a lot more.
Edited by - Joe Larson on 09/12/2009 13:29:32
Tim-mater - Posted - 09/12/2009: 15:24:11
I agree. At one point I re-learned the tunes that I had previously played in G modal in G minor tuning (B tuned down half step) and my ears were a lot more satisfied. I thought I was just being uncivilized about the whole thing. I am glad there are others.
Great question Neil.
John Gribble - Posted - 09/12/2009: 19:07:01
It is the third note in the scale which which determines whether we hear a piece as major or minor. If there is no third, we simply don't know, although a flat seventh also suggests minor.
A fun scale in which to mess around which demonstrates this is G-A-C-D-E-G. In G modal/Mountain Minor/sawmill tuning, play (String/Fret): 3/0, 3/2, 2/0, 1/0, 1/2, 1/5.
John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan
Neil D - Posted - 09/15/2009: 10:31:40
Thanks Guys,
Seemsm so obvious now 
Cheers
Neil
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 09/15/2009: 21:26:10
Perhaps the murkiness lies not in the major/minor ambiguity, but in the G/C ambiguity?
tposgate - Posted - 10/07/2009: 06:10:59
John and Ira are both onto something. First off, I want to mention that no matter how experienced the player I find that musicians have a tough time articulating this sound with words. (although they know it when they hear it)
The scale that John is calling mountain is a C major pentatonic or a mode of that scale (i.e. it is in a different order) CDEGA vs. GACDE
If one is hearing G as the tonal centre of the song then we are truly playing in a mode of C. Since none of the notes in this scale have strong resolution in C (ie. an F falling to E or a B rising to a C) this chord or tonality will not "naturally" resolve and will therefore stay in the one mode or tonality.
If you must think major or minor you can be aware that you have the three notes of a C major triad (C E G) but it won't sound like a tonic.
More coffee!!
Tim Posgate
www.guildwoodrecords.com
follow me on twitter: @tposgate
minstrelmike - Posted - 10/07/2009: 07:02:42
I think murky tonality comes from modes for the most part. In the strumming of the strings in sawmill tuning, you get a lot of tones that aren't a named chord , but when you begin playing a song, there is usually a scale of some sort with a root that doesn't match the root your ear 'wants' (out of habit some say, out of physics say others).
Without a specific song, it's hard to describe. But consider the tune Angeline the Bakegirl. We play the chords D and G, but the song is in a 'key' of A that is neither a major nor minor scale; it is one of the other modes. (Since it is pentatonic melody, there are a couple different modes that would fit). I Know You Rider is another song that we play D chords to but the melody line is based on an A scale.
Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
derekanjo - Posted - 10/07/2009: 19:37:05
Tony is simply refering to the fac that there is no major 3rd in the chord/scale. Simple exercise to demonstrate. Play a G major chord - G, B, D. Then play a G minor chord - G, Bb, D. Now, just play and "open" G chord - G, D. Is the open chord major or minor? Neither. The third is the determinate.
Derek
John Gribble - Posted - 10/07/2009: 23:56:16
Some would say G and D do not make a chord. They are open fifths (G - D) or fourths (D - G). Traditional theory says you have to have at least three different notes to form a chord. But these intervals are often used, moved around like chords, and are referred to as "power chords" in rock. Sometimes they are written "G (no 3rd)" or "G5."
Theory doesn't always keep up with practice.
John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 10/08/2009: 10:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by John Gribble
Some would say G and D do not make a chord. They are open fifths (G - D) or fourths (D - G). Traditional theory says you have to have at least three different notes to form a chord. But these intervals are often used, moved around like chords, and are referred to as "power chords" in rock. Sometimes they are written "G (no 3rd)" or "G5."
Theory doesn't always keep up with practice.
John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan
I think here we're talking about a practice that the theory has gone beyond- harmony in open fifths (or fourths) was hip for a long time- pretty much throughout the medieval period. Our theory involves triads based on thirds. That open-fifth type of harmonization may be a harkening back to really old tunes or even to bagpipe tunes where a constant drone, not scales and triads was the basis of harmony. A lot of old tunes seem to have murky tonality because they are not based in tonality, but in modality - or on a pentatonic scale, or even some multitonal system in which there are two (or more) tonal centers to the tune. Not everything has to fit I. IV, V7. Reducing everything to major and minor is like reducing everything to vanilla or chocolate. What happens when you get pistachio? I'll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I'll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl deligo ergo renideo, Bob Cameron
derekanjo - Posted - 10/08/2009: 14:11:01
quote:
Originally posted by John Gribble
Some would say G and D do not make a chord. They are open fifths (G - D) or fourths (D - G). Traditional theory says you have to have at least three different notes to form a chord. But these intervals are often used, moved around like chords, and are referred to as "power chords" in rock. Sometimes they are written "G (no 3rd)" or "G5."
Theory doesn't always keep up with practice.
John Gribble
Tokyo, Japan
Indeed, and I agree. G & D is an interval, not a chord..unless you double a pitch. But the example was simplified to make the point. Derek
banjoak - Posted - 11/04/2009: 00:13:24
G and D IS a chord when played together; it's just not a triad, it's a dyad. An interval is the distance between two notes, usually referred to by playing one after the other. Traditional theory? Well it depends on who your teachers were. Many cannot much conceive of music outside of Rameau's major/minor system we use today. Older music and modes weren''t thought of as "chordal" terms. Many traditional tunes follow those older models. Rock music uses "power chords" essentially just a one and five. Other cultures also share this not third idea. "Our" music? Don't know who's in your pocket.
Lots of old Irish and Scottish tunes and airs used similar modality the OP described. Ionian Pentatonic, the one we usually think of - CDEGA; and what is often termed Dorian Pentatonic - DEGAC; either of which can be transposed to any key.
The Dorian Pentatonic has a unique feature of no third. This music was based of melodic intervallic concerns rather than thinking in chords. Also generally performed as a solo monophonic form. So no chords. A drone of the tonic or the fifth sounds good against them, then perhaps a chord of just the one and five, no third in the chord. The tunes sound good with just this chord, and not changing to another chord. This is what some folks refer to as "no chords". Sometimes a secondary chord can be added without huge damage to the tune; either the VII chord (since the triad is present in the scale you could use the triad) or the V7 chord (but here you would avoid the third, but could add the 7). Rarely does a 4 chord work. As a solo banjo piece, don't think chords, and as a matter of fact don't be concerned with some of the odd dyads that form against the drone (your fifth string acts as a drone), it's kind of part of the charm.
In either pentatonic form, you can add passing and leading notes and ornaments without disrupting the pentatonic feel. In Ionian it would be a 4th from the third to the fifth or vise versa; and the seventh from the sixth to the octave. In Dorian it would most often be the sixth going from the fifth to the seventh and back. The third is hardly ever used as a passing note, mainly because it wants to shift the modality.
These tunes have power to them that just can't be put into major/minor context without diluting the power.
|
Feeds
