gypsygirl - Posted - 09/09/2009:  13:46:42

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Just in case noone ever sees my blog on the home page...I have a question. After memorizing various and sundry tab from books I still feel like I know nothing! Where do I go from here?

Gypsy

GHohwald - Posted - 09/09/2009:  13:52:56

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Playing with someone else is a lot of fun, a great learning experience and will motivate you. If you do not have someone to play with you can use Jam along tracks or go to an actual jam. Plying the same songs by yourself over and over is not any where near as much fun.

quote:

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Originally posted by gypsygirl

Just in case noone ever sees my blog on the home page...I have a question. After memorizing various and sundry tab from books I still feel like I know nothing! Where do I go from here?

Gypsy

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Geoff Hohwald
http://www.freebanjovideos.com
http://www.5dollarbanjolessons.com

CG - Posted - 09/09/2009:  13:55:13

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I feel the same way. If you keep a written list of all the songs you can play you may be surprised how much you really know and as you continue to learn more songs you might forget to play some of those you learned along the way. So keeping a record of your repertoire is a handy thing to do.

=====
Clive
Stay nice!

gypsygirl - Posted - 09/09/2009:  13:58:22

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I saw some jam tracks on the Banjo Teacher website. Know of any others and do they come with tab or do I have to figure it out on my own

Gypsy

minstrelmike - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:01:27

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Where do you want to go?
What do you want to do on your banjo?

My goal was to be able to play with pretty much anyone I met. That's a different goal than wanting to play on stage or make money teaching or just figure out songs on your own to please yourself (although that's an awful similar goal).

Now is the time to start working up breaks.

Here are a few melody-only tunes you can pluck out on your banjo under the Songs to Read section: http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/rea...c/index.html
Play the melody thru a couple times to a song. Then try adding in the chords and just plucking away.

The other thing you can do (that really irritates some folks but is the way I learned to _play_) is get fakebooks (sheet music) of your favorite music whether it is rock or rap or opera or pop and strum your way thru it. Use your chords up-the-neck. Try them different places and you'll be surprised how well certain songs work out. Try picking those songs.

There are two things you need to learn when taking up an instrument. One is the instrument. You really need to know how to play chords and rolls and how to make licks from rolls but we can only show beginners that in the form of complete arrangements.

The other thing you need to learn is what _music_ is all about. For the banjo, that involves knowing melody and chord progression and verse-chorus and rhythm and stuff like that (which is why learning a second instrument is far easier than learning the first one because you don't have to relearn _music_). And it's easier to learn the concepts of music if you use music you are already familiar with such a church hymns or Christmas carols or raunchy barroom songs.

To learn banjo, play your way thru banjo books.
To learn music, play your way thru music books.


Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

gypsygirl - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:11:07

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Mike, I really want to be able to just sit down and play what I want, actually remember it!!, and play with others I might meet along the way. So far I have never had the nerve to play outside of my house. I looked over the link you sent and will try it out. Thanks :)

Gypsy

sjyokel - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:11:33

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If you don't have a teacher (sounds like you don't), check out Acutab's Power Pickin Vol. 1 & 2. They'll introduce you to the idea of backup, which is really the other 90% of banjo picking.

Without a teacher (or prior musical experience), you may still have some trouble putting it all into practice, but the only solution I can think of is to visit some local jams and make friends with some other banjo pickers who seem nice enough to offer some help. Or find a guitar player who's about your level and see if you can work out some songs by trading breaks and backing each other up.

You get to a point where (if you want to play bluegrass music with other musicians) books and dvds won't get you past the last step. You just have to jump in and get your own feel for it in the end. And that's also where your style comes from...what makes your banjo playing unique from everybody else's. So don't be afraid of finding your own way.

gypsygirl - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:17:00

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this area is not a bluegrass hotspot unless you count the snow camp festival every year! but I would like to get up with some folks and give it a whirl... will look up the acutab....thanks

Gypsy

miiloo - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:30:53

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Gypsy,
The tabs you've spent your time on to learn can be of great value to your playing. Try and isolate the various licks you've learned, take note of where they come up in the song's chord progression.
Tabs are of little use if you can only play the tune from starting at the beginning. Break the licks apart and apply them to other songs. If your frustration is from what I think it is, you know more than you think you do, just look at the tabs you've learned with new eyes. Break it down and use parts of it elsewhere. Trade D licks from one song to another, then another.
Keep on keeping on,
Milo

The KIDD - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:53:08

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Hey Gypsy,

Just wondering if you'd listened to our jukebox? If so, how often? And have ya tried the instructional videos posted by our very own? If not, theres much to be gained by listening the wealth of exp. here on our pages. After 2 yrs, maybe a totally different approach is in order?. The key is to "Internalize" and that takes ear training, the use of your emotions, and muscle memory developement. We can help!
John

http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass

Lonestar Newb - Posted - 09/09/2009:  14:59:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by gypsygirl

this area is not a bluegrass hotspot unless you count the snow camp festival every year! but I would like to get up with some folks and give it a whirl... will look up the acutab....thanks

Gypsy

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if you start asking around at music shops in your area, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised how many people are into bluegrass. Try it down here in South Texas, land of mariachi bands and accordians.

Russ

gypsygirl - Posted - 09/09/2009:  15:07:40

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Guess you have a point newb:) There are a lot more bluegrass fans here and it is getting more popular with the late 20's early 30's crowd. I have several friends interested in learning to play but I am no help and they don't know where to start. Cuz...Jeez... the banjo is so HARD! I have family in Texas by the way...Abilene, San Antonio, and one other place I cannot remember at the moment!

Gypsy

SandyR - Posted - 09/09/2009:  15:13:57

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quote:

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After memorizing various and sundry tab from books I still feel like I know nothing! Where do I go from here?

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I might be the exception to the rule (at least on BHO), but I actually find your comment reassuring. It tells me you intuitively know/feel the need for kinds of learning that don't relate to memorization, tab, etc. Aside from the teacher route, I think there is one very important learning component you could take advantage of, and in your area it's easier than, for example, where I live: watching good players. Visual learning is truly invaluable. I realize it's a fairly long way to WNC, where (in Burnsville) an annual banjo seminar happens featuring some excellent players, but I think the Chapel Hill area should have a few good banjo pickers (or did in the '60s when I spent time in NC). Do some looking around (including here on the Hangout) and see who you can find locally. I guarantee that sitting in front of a good picker on a regular basis will set the wheels in motion...you'll learn things, get inspiration and direction, and see what you need to work on. I also agree with Geoff (above) that finding a few folks to play with is fun and another good thing for your progress. I definitely recommend watching and doing!

minstrelmike - Posted - 09/09/2009:  15:15:17

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There was another thread about learning or memorizing tunes.

If you want to know a lot of songs (I know 300 off the top of my head), then you need to strip them down to basics. If the song Cripple Creek is 16 measures of 8 or so notes each, then you've got 100 specific little notes to memorize. If a song is a chord progression and a melody, there are far fewer things you have to memorize for each song which means you can memorize more songs.

That's why you need to remember the diff between learning banjo and learning music. To learn banjo, you need to play all 100 notes in the Cripple Creek arrangement. And all 200 strokes in most other tunes as you learn. But eventually, you need to turn that learning into a knowledge of rolls and chords independent of any particular song. that allows each particular song to then be simply the minimal melody and chord progression to allow you to play it.

Here's another thing to try. Pluck out Oh Susannah on the banjo without looking up the tab anyplace. Try Shortnin Bread or This Old Man or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. Just try to find the melody by ear. You may surprise yourself.

The more you explore for yourself, the more sense any lessons or knowledge you receive makes.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

gypsygirl - Posted - 09/09/2009:  15:16:49

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I listen to the jukebox pretty regular but have not spent too much time on videos..I laid down my banjo for about 6 months after my mom suffered a ruptured brain aneurysm first of the year and have only recently gotten back into it. Looking for new ways to learn. Thanks for your input:)

quote:

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Originally posted by The KIDD

Hey Gypsy,

Just wondering if you'd listened to our jukebox? If so, how often? And have ya tried the instructional videos posted by our very own? If not, theres much to be gained by listening the wealth of exp. here on our pages. After 2 yrs, maybe a totally different approach is in order?. The key is to "Internalize" and that takes ear training, the use of your emotions, and muscle memory developement. We can help!
John

http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass

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Gypsy

stanleytone - Posted - 09/09/2009:  16:02:22

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if you got the basics down then you gotta get some jam time .thats where your creative juices start to flow youll .start playing licks you never learned behind closed doors
youll be amazed at how your playing will start improving!

quote:

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Originally posted by gypsygirl

Just in case noone ever sees my blog on the home page...I have a question. After memorizing various and sundry tab from books I still feel like I know nothing! Where do I go from here?

Gypsy

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"Yeah,I play the banjo.You gotta problem with that?"

Richard Dress - Posted - 09/09/2009:  16:31:14

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Assuming you have got the basics down as you seem to have done, there are a number of different paths you could take. An MP3 of you picking something would provide enough info to determine your best course of action.

Learning more stuff is not going to move you off the spot you occupy now. Most likely you should get a few basic check-up lessons from a good teacher. You can do that online with a real live teacher if you have DSL or cable or fiber optic. But a teacher right now may not be the right thing for you.

The same question came up recently and the member was persuaded to submit a sound file that was far from perfect but it got her some very helpful advice.

The first step is putting up a sound file that honestly shows where you are.

Woodturner - Posted - 09/09/2009:  17:28:38

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I found myself in a similar situation. I got to where I know several tabs really well, but I didn't know jack about jamming with others. But I didn't feel comfortable and confident enough to just find and chat with other banjo pickers that are far more advanced than me. I tried jamming a bit, but even when they "slow" down for me, it's still far to fast to feel like I can keep up. So...I got me a band that didn't complain...

http://www.homespuntapes.com/shop/c...y.aspx?id=25

Happy Frails to You,
Denton

The KIDD - Posted - 09/09/2009:  18:27:27

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Hey Denton,
Judging from your pic , looks like YOUR doing the cain raisin now... Yep, no sub for gettin out and hittin the jams. I took 3 students to the MACC few yrs ago and told them Id be about 4 campsites down and Id catch up shortly and we'd all hit the fields together.Shoot, I took off for the other side and didnt see them till 2am. Next day, they were glad I didnt walk around to mother hen them.(Like THEY wanted in the first place) They found themselves takin breaks on tunes they'd never heard. etc.'Ya never know what will come outta that banjo till your put in this situation.There confidence on a local level increase leaps and bounds.

http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass

pickingfive - Posted - 09/09/2009:  18:43:58

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How are you at improvising? Can you "play by ear?" Being able to jam with others and pick out tunes that are new to you mainly require learning to play by ear.
You might try a couple of the basic Murphy Henry DVD,' including her DVD "Improvising: The First Stage."
(When I asked Ralph Stanley if some people just did not have what it takes to learn to pick the five, - I had tried to learn from tab for 2 1/2 years and got nowhere - Ralph told me "Your ear is your teacher." That, plus Murphy Henry's tapes got me going, and I am able to do some jamming and improvising now.)

pickingfive

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 09/10/2009:  00:22:53

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Pete "Dr. Banjo" Wernick has devoted a lot of energy over the last ten years or so to helping people in your situation. I've assisted him at many of his Jam Camps since 2003, and I think he's really onto something. Check out the "Instructional" page on his web site: http://drbanjo.com/instructional.php .

The time and effort you've put into playing the banjo so far has not been wasted, though. Once you learn how to play with others, you'll have a context into which to put all that banjo knowledge.

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Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 09/10/2009 00:23:38

wrentree - Posted - 09/10/2009:  07:11:07

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It will take some time after you get out in the public to make all you have learned up to now work too. Try getting someone else who maybe plays the guitar and play together. That will get you outside your individual setting. And keep trying to find a group jam around near. You will find that there are a lot of folks out there who are at your level and you won't feel inadequate for very long.

Harold

gypsygirl - Posted - 09/11/2009:  05:46:52

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All of these sound like good ideas and some place to go from here!! Thanks guys

Gypsy

acutab - Posted - 09/11/2009:  10:17:36

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Hi Gypsy.

It sounds like it's time for you to stop worrying so much about learning songs and start learning to play the banjo. =)

That sounds like a flippant remark, but it isn't meant to be. Do you spend any time with your banjo just "fooling around?"

You need to be better acquainted with where all the sounds you hear when listening to well-played banjo can be found on your instrument. How well do you know your chords up and down the neck? Can you find the melody of a simple song in the first position?

Have you tried to create a simple banjo break for a song you don't have in tab? How about finding an up-the-neck break to a song you already know.

Move past your comfort zone and challenge yourself wherever you feel that your knowledge and experience are weak.

That exercise will deliver in spades!

John

John Lawless - AcuTab Publications: Books and DVDs of interest to serious students of bluegrass music; private banjo lessons in Roanoke, VA (http://www.acutab.com/artists/lawless/lessons.html)

http://www.acutab.com * http://www.5-and-dime.com * http://www.thebluegrassblog.com

The Bluegrass Music Has Got To Be Played!

pickNgrin - Posted - 09/11/2009:  11:21:31

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Hey Gypsy-

There is a ton of bluegrass stuff going on in this area... you just have to know where to find it. For starters, you might want to check out the weekly bluegrass jam in Hillsborough, NC: http://ncbluegrass.blogspot.com/. I don't make it to the jam as much as I should, but maybe I'll see you up there some time. Alan Forrest co-runs it ("Forrest" on the hangout)... he can probably fill you in on details. They usually get a good turnout of friendly folks.

You also might want to watch this thread about a bunch of BHO members in the area (called the "NC Squad") who are planning a big get together in the near future: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=156451

-matt

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 09/11/2009:  11:33:37

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Gypsy,

I was taught without tabs, and teach all of my students without tabs.

If your ear has the crutch of tab to help it out, it never learns to rely only upon itself. If you want to internalize your music, get a teacher to play your parts in slow motion, and memorize small chunks by ear, without any tab.

Tableture is then a great medium to learn from, once the ear is working.

minstrelmike - Posted - 09/11/2009:  13:23:02

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"If your ear has the crutch of tab to help it out, it never learns to rely only upon itself"
==============================
I totally disagree. I have seen people internalize music and learn to jam using tab. I have also seen people who cannot improvise and are totally dependent on doing whatever a live teacher or recorded mp3 shows them.

The issue of tab vs ear is a false dichotomy. The real issue is how you practice what you learn. If you never improvise or noodle or do anything on your own or attempt to learn to use your ear, that's up to you, but it ain't tab stopping you from doing it anymore than _hearing_ a story is better than _reading_ a story.

If your goal is to repeat or retell the story to others, then you need to learn in a way that works for you.

Lessons are just a starting point. The people who know that learn to move ahead regardless of what sorts of lessons they start with. The ones that don't can never leave the lessons, again, regardless of what sorts of lessons they are.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 09/11/2009:  17:58:41

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You've got a lot of moxie Mike. LOL

Pete Wernick - Posted - 09/11/2009:  20:55:35

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<<Looking for new ways to learn.>>

I sympathize with g.g.'s plight. The very first student I ever taught learned 50 tabs I wrote out for him, and still didn't really understand the style, and couldn't make up a solo on his own, or jam. So I stopped teaching that way.

I agree with all the advice to "get out and jam", but not every jam situation is easy to learn from, especially when they go fast and aren't concerned about helping new people in.

So I made play-along DVDs to help people practice playing along at home, and offer jam camps to give people a comfortable intro to the sport, and learn the skills that make things work.

It's definitely time to try to find a melody by ear and turn it into a Scruggs style break, by experimenting with ideas you've already learned and weaving them around the melody. That is a critical skill, one that tab can prepare you for, but not actually teach you. My latest video is about making up your own solos.

May I recommend a visit to this page: http://drbanjo.com/new-jammers.php
which is for people who want to learn about jamming.

Jamming and most bluegrass playing is something like having a conversation, though people can do "scripted" things in a conversation. But people who only go from a script are not able to converse easily. At some point you have to learn to just pick up things on the fly, use your ears, and not have exact directions to follow. That can be scary, but there is a lot of help for that available these days.

Jump in and have fun with it! I'm sure you'll get the hang of it soon enough, and you'll be glad you did. As someone said, all that tab learning will show its benefits once you're jamming.

Pete Wernick

DrBanjo.com

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 09/11/2009:  22:34:41

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Thank you Dr. Banjo.

I love Flexigrass. Your playing is so masterfully syncopated. Just great.

billyshake - Posted - 09/11/2009:  22:58:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pete WernickThe very first student I ever taught learned 50 tabs I wrote out for him, and still didn't really understand the style, and couldn't make up a solo on his own, or jam. So I stopped teaching that way.

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I am most definitely that guy! (the student) I am (re)learning the tabs from a whole host of beginner-level songs, but I'm limited due to the fact that music in general is incredibly difficult for me. When I tell people that I cannot do simple math, they often attempt to teach me; it's very frustrating because a lot of folks don't understand what it is to be, more or less, chronically innumerate. I can easily mark-up the iambic pentameter and trochees in a Shakespearean sonnet, but I'll be danged if I can do the 20% on a restaurant check...well, 10% if the waiter gives me the stink-eye more than twice. Attempting to do so actually gives me an immediate headache. It's the same with rhythm. I cannot tap my foot and play the banjo at the same time; it creates a dissonance in my head that is hard to explain. Suffice to say, it doesn't feel good at all -- it's the opposite of how one should feel while picking a banjo. So my being, for lack of a better term, 'chronically contretemps' precludes my playing with others.

Luckily, my goal with the banjo is the journey itself. It's just really fun when every once in a while something clicks, ya know? A side benefit: this newly acquired banjo will sit on my lap for hours each day, as it does now, while I write. When taking think-breaks every now and then, I absently pluck away until the mini-writer's block is busted through. Works great!

But like the O.P., gypsygirl, I will feel foolish if someone, especially a musician, were to say, "oh, you play the banjo!" I would have to reply that no, I specialize in "appearing to play" the banjo. One might even call my style, "Verisimilitudinous 3-Finger."

____________________________
Am I the only banjo player in India?

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Edited by - billyshake on 09/11/2009 23:01:38

minstrelmike - Posted - 09/12/2009:  10:14:21

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If you want to learn music, try simply strumming chords to children's songs.
Any beginner-level version of 3-finger picking (tab or mp3) is not actually beginner-level music.
Guitarists start by strumming 2-chord songs, then 3-chord songs, then they start worrrying about specific leads and strings and fingerpicking and stuff like that.

Three-finger stuff is tricky and as far as I'm concerned, none of it is beginner level _music_.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

craigd - Posted - 09/12/2009:  15:05:08

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Hey G-girl, I learned from Janet davis books too, but when I got the splitting the licks book, it opened it up for me. try this, you already know CC so, take part B, slow it down and start singing it as you play it, it really is the notes to the verses, I really have alot of fun with it, making up verses and then jumping into it fast, just like they did on hee haw. Untill I stated to sing along with my jo, I couldn't really really relate what I was doing with the song I was playing.

Good Luck and for heavens sake,, HANG IN THERE

pcfive - Posted - 09/12/2009:  17:35:16

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I think that hanging in there is the main thing. I am often very disappointed in how my recordings sound, but it is slowly getting better. There are things about Scruggs style that I don't think can be explained in words, or in tabs, and it just has to sink in slowly. I could listen to a song a hundred times and play it over and over and over, and it still would not sound right. There is some kind of elusive Zen of the Scruggs style and lately I sometimes feel like I get it.

For me, recording is essential. Sometimes I'm playing and thinking it sounds great, but it really doesn't. I record a lot and listen carefully.

So my non-expert opinion is to play a lot, by ear and also from tabs. I think Splitting the Licks is extremely helpful, but I also think tabs can be a good way to get ideas. I don't usually learn a song by memorizing a tab, but I might use parts of several different ones.



pcfive

Rob Bourassa - Posted - 09/12/2009:  21:07:28

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Very well said Mike.

Children's song are the foundation for every musician. Imagine coming up to your favorite musician, and asking them to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb", and watch them struggle, only to make mistake after mistake.

Many start on bluegrass standards, and still do not possess the basic musicality to play "Happy Birthday" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star."

One should first learn a major scale, and be able to pick a melody, using the scale as a template. They should also be familiar with the I,IV,V chord progression, and be able to play melodies through the chord changes, for any given, simple tune.

Then, they are equipped to develop a repertoire.

billyshake - Posted - 09/12/2009:  21:23:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Bourassa

Very well said Mike.
Many start on bluegrass standards, and still do not possess the basic musicality to play "Happy Birthday" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star."

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Yeah, that's been me, for the most part. But I am learning the chord progressions now and it's made a difference. I was farting around last night, just playing nonsense while watching the news, and I realized I was suddenly playing the opening to the Pink Panther using simply, discordant slides. It was a cool feeling.

____________________________
Am I the only banjo player in India?