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Ukeridge - Posted - 08/04/2009: 13:39:40
Finally got a copy of Splitting the Licks and I've noticed that though the instructions say chose rolls that fit the melody, it's more often that melody notes are moved or dropped to fit the rolls that are favored. I've noticed this about her arrangements found in other books as well. Since her particular style comes through in other ways, I'm wondering how universal this is.
I (think) I prefer playing all the melody note and finding a way to do it. Ironically it's Ralph Stanley that's helped me make it possible: I never thought of using the first finger on the forth string until it was pointed out to me that he does it all the time. (Ironic because in Masters of the 5-String Banjo he says he moves melody notes to fit his forward roll----to Trischka's surprise.)
I'm not complaining, just trying to stir up some conversation on the topic.
----------------------
"That''s how I roll."
Richard Dress - Posted - 08/04/2009: 14:21:19
Great topic. It's been by a few times recently but I think there is a lot more to be said. As far as melody goes, a musician has many possibilities to choose from. There isn't just a 'melody'. That's a confusion associated with tab. A good banjo player will generally try to capture the feel of the lead singer, using the way the singer phrases the notes. As far as choosing rolls, the masters didn't mix their rolls up very much. Most songs sound just fine with a simple forward roll throughout.
To sum up, no matter which way you say 'choose rolls that fit the melody' or 'choose the melody to fit the rolls' neither way really describes the situation.
PS: the above doesn't apply to melodic/chromatic styles (I don't think)
Ukeridge - Posted - 08/04/2009: 15:03:37
What you say makes a lot of sense, especially when viewed as backup for a singer. But sometimes I feel that a lot of arrangements end up sounding more similar to each other than they need to. Not only are the licks and the fills repeated, but the melody is shifted to let those common licks happen.
I wonder if it would be instructive to examine a specific example. The first tune in Splitting is Worried Man Blues, which has two low D notes in row. Of course, I'm not accompanying anyone (yet) but the only way to really get those notes is with the first finger on the second one. To me the song pops out more (though admittedly, not that much more) than other options.
----------------------
"That''s how I roll."
minstrelmike - Posted - 08/04/2009: 15:14:45
The tutorials that present licks and approaches choose easy to understand or use ways to incorporate rolls and melodies.
That's why they all sound the same. They are trying to make it easy for the student to capture the basic idea.
Your goal as a student of music is to start from there and move on.
As stated previously, there isn't actually a single melody. Even if you play the exact same notes, a singer might sing them differently so you'd need to play them differently. And as an exercise in improv, I try to find the absolute minimum number of notes that will describe a melody. This number gets shorter and shorter the more times the "melody" is played in breaks as the song goes on. (I'm thinking like when each person plays 6 or 7 breaks).
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
dcb - Posted - 08/04/2009: 15:31:01
Im new at this so my cup is only half full or is half empty.
well any way i am a new student at playing rolls in there proper context. meaning before all i ever played as rolls was what sounded good to me and in doing that I missed a lot of the notes that actully made the tune sound like what it was supposed to sound like. sometimes they all sounded alike.
i have been re-learning foward backward and foward rolls along with an outside roll. the tunes are progressive from bajo in the hollow to pony express which has a constant foward and reverse roll for the 2nd part. the first part for me has foward roll and outside roll and the pinches.
i think I am learning both because there are skruggs licks and chromatic licks that can be used in a tune like that. i think it is a mixed style and it sound really good because the rolls fit the melody and the melody fits the rolls.
i said a lot so dont beat me up too bad still learning.
Dave
1968 Gibson Bowtie
Richard Dress - Posted - 08/04/2009: 15:45:09
I second all Mike says. And I like the point about how things may change with time.
And it is true that an example of some kind using Worried Man Blues would be helpful.
rstieg - Posted - 08/04/2009: 16:34:53
It may be useful to keep in mind that the main reason for teaching rolls is to ultimately give you full flexibility in your playing. More advanced players usually just play without thinking of what roll they may happen to be playing at any given moment. The long-term idea is to allow you to play music, not rolls. It's significant that Earl never heard of rolls and never thought about that concept until after he was extremely experienced and famous.
RICH
Pleasanton, CA
The truth is a moving target... perception is more important than reality... everything is relative...
Rich Weill - Posted - 08/04/2009: 19:32:46
Alan Munde, in his "Getting into Bluegrass Banjo," organizes all rolls according to what string they start on. So he has 1st string rolls, 2nd string rolls, 3rd string rolls, and 4th string rolls. That's one way of thinking about it -- as the first note of a measure is often the most important melody note.
And I wouldn't undersell moving melody notes around a bit. Hitting a melody note a half-beat early or late adds a touch of syncopation -- which some people consider a plus.
While I agree with Rich that you will stop thinking about rolls at some point, that's mostly because -- by focusing on them now -- they get into your fingers and become instinctive. Then again, if you find yourself playing a song the same way too many times, one way to add some variety is to consciously use different rolls -- so knowing your rolls can always come in handy.
Richard Dress - Posted - 08/04/2009: 20:16:32
Here is an illustration of variations on Worried Man Blues, as suggested by ukeridge. I put it on MoblieMe--since I am paying for video quality. I ought to use it.
Give it time to download. I hope it works.
http://gallery.me.com/richarddress/100259
Ukeridge - Posted - 08/04/2009: 21:10:05
Hey, that's service! And great sounding too.
So, are those sudden improvisations? Distinctly different pre-thought-out approaches?
When I see that I just want to learn everything note-for-note. Hard to imagine I'll get to a point where I can just plunk out my own devisings with such surety.
----------------------
"That''s how I roll."
heavythumb - Posted - 08/05/2009: 05:37:24
Ukeridge:
You may want to check out the Silver Strings E-zine. Every month the is a detailed analysis of taking a melody and turning it into a banjo arrangement. It's free.
http://www.bluegrass.cc/Subscription.htm
Charley wild - Posted - 08/05/2009: 06:14:32
Drat Richard, I can't make that thing work. I went through the "joining process" and can do everything but get the video play! A cockpit problem I'm sure! 
"Marriage is sometimes a temporary thing but a good divorce can last forever"
Oscar Wilde
Edited by - Charley wild on 08/05/2009 06:15:57
Majkaj - Posted - 08/05/2009: 10:02:46
<<it's more often that melody notes are moved or dropped to fit the rolls that are <<favored. I've noticed this about her arrangements found in other books as well. <<Since her particular style comes through in other ways, I'm wondering how <<universal this is.
In Scruggs style, it is VERY common. If you wish to accurately reproduce the melody, then you would use melodic style.
Scruggs style would use rolls and chords to play much of the melody, hint at the melody, or just no melody but staying on chord and on time. If another instrument has already played a break that stated the melody fairly accurately, the next instrument would have more freedom to deviate from the melody and still sound acceptable to listeners.
For beginner banjo players who know how to play chords and can play several types of rolls, I would have them learn how to play a "break" by playing NOTHING more than a roll and play the chords. Don't worry about the melody because if you play the chords, much of it will be in there.
After you can play chords for your break, now let's start trying to work more melody notes in. As I remember , in Splitting the Licks, this is the method that Janet Davis tries to teach. In my opinion, it is a very effect method. I would suggest that you give her method a good try.
Bottom line is, you are the ultimate judge of what sounds right and what doesn't.
Mike
Coeur d'' Alene, ID
minstrelmike - Posted - 08/05/2009: 10:41:41
Dave (dcb),
If you want a second way of looking at rolls, get Wernick's Bluegrass Songbook (not his Banjo songbook (although that's good, too)).
The Bluegrass Songbook (and I believe the parking lot picker's book but I haven't seen it) has just melody tabbed out.
That forces you to use rolls to play the song.
There are two approaches. One is to work out specific licks for getting the melody.
The other is to just play the melody a few times thru without ornamentation to learn where it is, then play the song thru once with each of your favorite rolls and see what works best. For some songs, any roll works and that gives you a lot of breaks. For others, you will want to mix and match rolls and chord forms. This approach works better on singing songs than on instrumentals which tend to have more notes, especially fiddle tunes.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
BvilleDon - Posted - 08/05/2009: 11:35:46
The parking lot pickersa songbook does indeed have the melody tabbed out. Just make sure to get the banjo edition. There is an added bonus, Bill Evans could not help himself and added a few extra things, like a great version of Train 45 tabbed out and a great high break for Sally Goodin. It's a great book to use with Splitting the Licks!
"Sometimes banjo pickers are like folks with MBAs, they are often wrong, but never unsure."
Don
Richard Dress - Posted - 08/05/2009: 12:16:27
"So, are those sudden improvisations? Distinctly different pre-thought-out approaches? " - ukeridge
The breaks are not pre-thought out. I don't have a set way to play that song like I do for Cripple Creek. It was a good choice as an example for that reason. I just played it like a tab book, like Ralph might play it, and like a scruggs might play it. I hope you can tell the difference in the different ways.
I think it helps illustrate what I was saying in my post above: "a musician has many possibilities to choose from. There isn't just a 'melody'"
Charley wild - Posted - 08/05/2009: 12:34:32
Thanks Richard. That brings back memories. EXACTLY how I've always figured out songs. "Hum and Thumb" I always called it. That IS a good tune to use as an illustration. It was plain to me what you are doing and I'm not swift!
"Marriage is sometimes a temporary thing but a good divorce can last forever"
Oscar Wilde
pcfive - Posted - 08/05/2009: 12:35:14
I have Splitting the Licks and parking lot pickers, and they really complement each other. I think I have started to get the idea of how to play a song in Scruggs style, partly because of STL. Also, from playing from tabs -- I know many disagree, but I think playing tabs can make you familiar with licks in general, and then you can use them your own way.
One point about getting the melody correct -- remember that the melody is a little different for every verse, because the words are different. So there isn't just one correct melody for a song, and you can interpret within limits.
pcfive
Charley wild - Posted - 08/05/2009: 12:35:30
Thanks Richard. That brings back memories. EXACTLY how I've always figured out songs. "Hum and Thumb" I always called it. That IS a good tune to use as an illustration. It was plain to me what you are doing and I'm not swift!
"Marriage is sometimes a temporary thing but a good divorce can last forever"
Oscar Wilde
PharmBoy - Posted - 08/05/2009: 13:01:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ukeridge
Finally got a copy of Splitting the Licks and I've noticed that though the instructions say chose rolls that fit the melody, it's more often that melody notes are moved or dropped to fit the rolls that are favored. I've noticed this about her arrangements found in other books as well. Since her particular style comes through in other ways, I'm wondering how universal this is.
I (think) I prefer playing all the melody note and finding a way to do it. Ironically it's Ralph Stanley that's helped me make it possible: I never thought of using the first finger on the forth string until it was pointed out to me that he does it all the time. (Ironic because in Masters of the 5-String Banjo he says he moves melody notes to fit his forward roll----to Trischka's surprise.)
I'm not complaining, just trying to stir up some conversation on the topic.
----------------------
"That''s how I roll."
I think you have a valid point. The nice thing about this book is it encourages you to come up with your own interpretation. I don't play the songs the way she does exactly, but I get ideas which I incorporate into my own arrangements. So, play the songs the way you want them to sound. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no growth in the Comfort zone, and no comfort in the Growth zone. "The instrument proper to them is the Banjar, which they brought hither from Africa." -Thomas Jefferson ( )======"===::}
dcb - Posted - 08/05/2009: 13:27:22
thanks Mike, ill check out the two song books.
I forgot about the hum and thumb approach, just need a reminder once in a while..
my banjo teacher has been showing me how to use my index on the 3rd and 4th string to pull out power notes.
He keeps telling me it the little things that make you a good banjo player not all those fancy chromatic and melodic patterns., but it sure would be nice to do a little of it.
Dave
1968 Gibson Bowtie
Micki - Posted - 08/11/2009: 20:03:24
Bill Keith has a good book on how to build the rolls around the melody and how to learn all chords at the same time. Micki
O.D. - Posted - 08/13/2009: 10:21:18
Im sure a lot of people have heard that Earl used to play the melody as if he were singing it.
I thought about this and it occured to me that however you attempt to get the melody,either let the roll dictate ,or let the melody dictate what you play,or fit licks in,there is one important factor I have'nt seen yet in this thread.
think about Earl playing the melody relative to singing the song.
I believe he was trying to match the phrasing of the vocalist with his right hand approach.
Ive messed around with this a bit and Ive been able match the phrasing of the song by using various rolls and right hand techniques .
By approaching it this way,the melody seems easier to find and you end up with a very acurate account of the song you are attempting.
It also helps in back up and allows you to fall into a tighter rhythmic groove,IMHO.
Something I do sometimes is try and anunciate(sp?) the words with your right hand only. Get the phrasing down first then find the melody within.
Seems to work for me.
Good luck.
Regards, O.D.
www.oxforddepot.net
www.cdbaby.com/cd/edackerly
Edited by - O.D. on 08/13/2009 13:48:34
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