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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Five Foot Two


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beezaboy - Posted - 07/27/2009:  18:12:29


I'm working on a Pat Terry, Jr. tenor banjo arrangement of Five Foot Two in the key of C. It is mostly junior chords. Can someone point me to a chord arrangement of Five Foot Two comprising more full chords? Thanks,

Beezaboy

JudyBanjody - Posted - 07/30/2009:  20:54:10


Hey Beezaboy,
I am unable to point you to such chords, but it's just very exciting for me to see that other people know that song. I mean, I know they do--my banjo teacher didn't very well make the song up for me to play, but it's fun to see that others play it on the banjo, too :)

-Judith Marina Tirza Loretta Huerta-

Shamrock - Posted - 07/31/2009:  00:36:07


What are 'junior chords'?

English is not my first language. So I'm not familiar with some of the more technical terms.
That's one of the problems in communication with the world.

I think I know what you mean.
Do I know what you mean or do I think I know what you mean?
We communicate very loudly in this world but do we understand eachother?

Greetings Juup

"Excuse my English, I think in Dutch"

beezaboy - Posted - 07/31/2009:  03:30:02


Five Foot Two - Eyes of Blue- is a tune that has become a tenor banjo standard. "Junior chords" are chords formed on strings 2-3-4 and the 1st or A string is not played (CGDA tuning). The melody note is on string 2. Junior chords are had to play. Right hand sometimes strikes the A string by mistake. Previous discussion here I suggested muting the A string and playing right hand through with full strum. Nobody here thought that was a good idea and some seemed to never heard of such a technique. Which astounds me.

Beezaboy

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/31/2009:  04:20:37


John,

I guess, that you´re talking about a chord melody arrangement.

On a tenor banjo the lead voice in the melody or a solo will lay on the second string most of the time - with some trips to first and third string.

You´ll simply have to learn only striking/tremoloing a number of the strings ending at the melody string.

There are no short-cuts - Sorry. LOL!

Regards

Polle


Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/31/2009:  05:37:26


John & Others,

PS!


Have you listened to some of my rehearsal recordings at my BHO home page?

If so, you´ve maybe noticed, that I do often play rhythm strokes and patterns on string 2-4 only - using string 1 mostly for "freshening" the harmonies a little plus adding some built-in top scales.

This technique plus the use of advanced chord progressions (I do seldomly strike a certain chord more than one time) makes my rhythm playing sound a little like chord melody soloes.

Do also and especially notice, that I in slow ballads and blues pieces do often use a sort of press roll - I´m using both a direct and a counterwise cross-picking technique in connection with this.

These way of playing have their roots back in the 20s - but you´ll also sometimes meet them in the modern con-temporary way playing N.O.- and Creole jazz.

Kindly regards

Polle

PPS!

When playing Five Foot Two - do use heavy accents on the 1- and 3-strokes - do maybe not use 4 down-strokes in a bar - do maybe play it with heavy down-strokes on 1 and 3 plus light up-strokes on 2 and 4.



Banjo23055 - Posted - 07/31/2009:  06:06:31


Hello,

This format will not let me put the words with chords over it. I have it in C although I recorded it in G on my hangout page. It is not the most detailed chords but it may help. Send an email to my address and I will send you the words/chords, etc. On my page, the song is called "Anybody Seen My Gal?"

Hope I can help

Ellett Snead (banjo23055)

beezaboy - Posted - 07/31/2009:  06:56:21


This is from memory now: DaDaDaaa...
Five foot two,
Eyes of Blue,
But oh what those five feet can do,
Has anybody seen my gal.
Now if you run into,
A five foot two,
Covered in pearls,
A diamond ring,
And all those things,
Bet your life..da da da da.
Turned up nose,
Turned down hose,
DadadadadadadaDaaa
Has anybody seen my gal.
Yes, I need a chord melody arrangement with lots of A string melody notes so I can play 4 string chords.
Look at Wachter DVD and his "Eddie Peabody" strokes. Snapping the wrist etc. When you try this with 3 string junior chords it sounds stilted and mechanical and you will hit the A string inadvetently producing a discordant sound. Mute that A string with first finger or whatever finger works you can continue to strum with abandon!!

Beezaboy


Edited by - beezaboy on 07/31/2009 06:57:11

Compass56 - Posted - 07/31/2009:  06:57:20


If the song is done in Bb, many of its melody notes can be found on the first string which would allow for full four-string chords (as opposed to junior chords).

minstrelmike - Posted - 07/31/2009:  11:21:54


Why not find the chords yourself?
There are chord charts all over the place.

The chord progression is C E A A7 D7 G7 C /
with the middle part going: E(7) / A(7) / D(7) / G7 /

Then get a fakebook and figure out the melody. The 3-finger chords are harder to play which is why it's part of a lesson. Doing the full 4-finger stuff ought to be self-generated homework, at least if you really want to learn it in-depth.

MM

beezaboy - Posted - 07/31/2009:  14:49:38


Compass - Thanks for the Bb idea. I'll see what I can do.

MM - Okay. You shot an arrow. Why not? Because it's work and takes me from confort zone. I'm not really sure how to do it but have some books with explanations. Deep down, I only have so much time to devote to the banjo so I end up practicing technique to get better physically and hope to rely on others to provide the brainpower, muscial knowledge and arrangements that I can parrot. To me, the Circle of Fifths is like the Pythagoreum (sic) theorem. I've heard of them but don't really know or understand what they are. But, you are right by implication that if someone wants to be a complete banjo musician
(s)he should learn and employ the musical theory into practice. Ouch, you got me.

Beezaboy

Greenmeat - Posted - 07/31/2009:  15:56:18


First a couple of questions. Beezaboy -- What tuning are we talking about? Tenor, Plectrum or Guitar? If we are talking about Tenor, I have been a pro player all my life and I am 69 years old and I have never heard the term Jr. Chords. It sounds like something for amateurs. When I started playing Tenor in 1957 with the Original Salty Dogs Jazz Band the big names were Eddie Peabody and Perry Bechtel. The virtuoso style was popular and it was the Plectrum that was king. It seems everyone started playing in that style. 4 note chord melody. Soon I realized the difference between Plectrum and Tenor. I played with all the old style Tenor players and they told me the Tenor (Tango) Banjo was invented for the Violin family to use as a doubling instrument and should be played with the melody an octave below the plectrum style. If you try to play Tenor in the Plectrum style your melody will end up to high. Eddy Davis (to be continued)

Greenmeat - Posted - 07/31/2009:  16:10:20


The Tenor is meant to be played inside. Similar to the Mandolin or Violin family. As I said before, it was invented for those families to double upon. I guess you are referring to this style as Jr. Chords? Since the 1940's - 50's the most Tenor players try to play in the Plectrum style. Most Tenor players should be playing Plectrums. A lot of them change and say they are happier -- they should be if they want to play in that style. I think our conversations would be a lot better understood if the questionnaire started off by stating there tuning. NOW, the Irish style came along later and that is a whole other discussion, by the way, the great Elmer Snowden played mandolin first and when he switched he tuned his banjo an octave below his mandolin banjo. So I believe he was one of the first to play that tuning that is now referred to as Irish tuning. Sorry for such a long story. Eddy Davis

Compass56 - Posted - 07/31/2009:  16:20:11


Eddy, I think I first heard the term "junior chord" on a Buddy Wachter instructional tape. I would guess many of us got the term from that same source.

beezaboy - Posted - 07/31/2009:  17:40:54


Hi Men: If I am not mistaken the "junior" terminology is from "McNeil Chord System for Tenor Banjo" by Charles McNeil (Revised Ed 1929). He termed the 3 string inside chords and other 3 string forms as "Junior Finger Forms" and explains:
"Junior finger forms are used a great deal by professional Banjoists. They simplify awkward fingering, which will be explainted later. Throughout this course they will ge indicated by the the abbreviation Jr....
I first purchased this book pursuant to my teacher's instructions in 1954. It has since been reprinted and is very inexpensive. I have my current copy from ebay for under $15 and recommend it as it is chock full of tenor banjo information. In fact, if studied carefully it will explain how to create chord melody from the "song piano part" but seems to require the memoriztion of one zillion chords from his chord charts. I am working on the key of C and the key of F (CGDA) up the neck (Jr. chords first) and have been for years!!! For example: Try the C7 at seventh fret or G7 at tenth fret or go from simple first positon C chord to D7 at the 5th fret. Good old Charley McNeil.

Beezaboy

Greenmeat - Posted - 07/31/2009:  19:11:49


See you're never too old to learn something new every day! I had all those books back then, but I guess music theory took over and I started looking at (and playing) the neck like the keyboard of a piano and I don't play chords as a form. I move the individual fingers to form harmonies that move thru minors and majors -- sevenths and major sevenths, sixths minor, major and so on. Like augmenting a C minor chord (in root position) which looks like an A flat chord (and is) and then moving that augmented tone (finger) up to make a C minor sixth chord which looks like an F7 (and is). All of that is a C minor chord progression to me. Or playing a three note D7 on the inside at the sixth fret and moving the A note down one fret to form a D7 flat 5 chord, which looks (and is) like an A flat chord then moving all 3 fingers down one fret to make a G7 chord. Then move the first and second fingers down one fret to form a C7 chord and then repeat the whole afore mentioned process. These are cycle of fifth movements. Is this interesting? Eddy

minstrelmike - Posted - 08/01/2009:  08:00:12


Look up the C chords. You _have_ to learn them sometime and you will learn them from a book or something so it isn't anyplace out of your comfort zone, it is merely looking at a different book, that's all.

Play the C chord one place, then play it another, then another (there will be at least 3 or 4 options for a 4-string C chord various places on the neck regardless of tuning). Now play one C then another higher up the neck and see if you don't find the melody doing that.

If you don't explore for yourself, you rarely find anything that actually makes sense to you.
All the lessons and methods make sense to the teacher, not necessarily to the student.

notes:
e g e (all C chord)
Five foot two
e g# e (all E chord)
eyes of blue
e a e a e a e (all A chord)
oh what those five feet could do

Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 08/01/2009:  16:28:53


quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy

This is from memory now: DaDaDaaa...
Five foot two,
Eyes of Blue,
But oh what those five feet can do,
Has anybody seen my gal.


Here's where that line goes:
Turned up nose,
Turned down hose,
Flapper, yes sir, one of those
Has anybody seen my gal?
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Now if you run into,
A five foot two,
Covered in pearls,


Diamond rings, all those things,
Bet your life it isn't her.
Could she love,'
Could she coo,'
Cootchie cootchie cootchie coo
Has anybody seen my gal.

We must have played this tune thousands of times back in the 60s and 70s
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Yes, I need a chord melody arrangement with lots of A string melody notes so I can play 4 string chords.
Look at Wachter DVD and his "Eddie Peabody" strokes. Snapping the wrist etc. When you try this with 3 string junior chords it sounds stilted and mechanical and you will hit the A string inadvetently producing a discordant sound. Mute that A string with first finger or whatever finger works you can continue to strum with abandon!!

Beezaboy



I''ll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I''ll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron


Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 08/06/2009 05:06:44

mainejohn - Posted - 08/01/2009:  16:58:49


quote:
Originally posted by Greenmeat

See you're never too old to learn something new every day! I had all those books back then, but I guess music theory took over and I started looking at (and playing) the neck like the keyboard of a piano and I don't play chords as a form. I move the individual fingers to form harmonies that move thru minors and majors -- sevenths and major sevenths, sixths minor, major and so on. Like augmenting a C minor chord (in root position) which looks like an A flat chord (and is) and then moving that augmented tone (finger) up to make a C minor sixth chord which looks like an F7 (and is). All of that is a C minor chord progression to me. Or playing a three note D7 on the inside at the sixth fret and moving the A note down one fret to form a D7 flat 5 chord, which looks (and is) like an A flat chord then moving all 3 fingers down one fret to make a G7 chord. Then move the first and second fingers down one fret to form a C7 chord and then repeat the whole afore mentioned process. These are cycle of fifth movements. Is this interesting? Eddy





Not only is it interesting, it is fascinating. I am in awe!

Cheers,
John Coleman
Scarborough, Maine


beezaboy - Posted - 08/01/2009:  17:48:58


quote:
We must have played this tune thousands of times back in the 60s and 70s

Never gets old!!
Has anybody seen my gal!!!



Beezaboy

Dogface - Posted - 08/02/2009:  19:33:38


Beezer,

You just gotta learn to play inside....that's all there is to it. You are correct, BTW, on the McNeil books. That's where I first read the term, What ever you call it...you'll need it. It's a matter of muscle memory on both hands. It will come. Matter of fact, I now really almost prefer inside chords and love to add stuff on the bass strings. Really makes a tune much more interesting.

Thanks,
Mark

If there are no dogs in heaven then when I die I want to go where they went...

Will Rogers

Compass56 - Posted - 08/03/2009:  06:40:22


On certain tunes, inside is the definitely the way to go.

beezaboy - Posted - 08/03/2009:  07:30:59


Yes, yes. If we're going to play chord melody on the tenor banjo (CGDA) we've go to go inside ("junior) and play some melody notes on the D string. So, you think I keep practicing right hand to just play the CGD strings I'll succeed. BUT...why can't I get anyone to bless the muting of the A with first finger or side of it or knuckle or something and play through all 4 strings recklessly. I recorded myself on the tape recorder on "Bye Bye Blues" yesterday muting the A string when necessary to get a junior and it sounded okay on playback. Better than the mechanical sounding result i get when I concentrating on just stroking the CGD without even a whisper of the A string being touched. I'm on board with inside chords but what is the best technique for getting them.

Beezaboy

minstrelmike - Posted - 08/03/2009:  11:36:42


Practice the tremolo on the 2nd or 3rd string only.
Then practice the tremolo on both those strings without hitting either the 1st or the 4th string.
Then try strumming just the top three or just the bottom three strings.

MM

banjofanatico - Posted - 08/03/2009:  17:41:06


quote:
Originally posted by Greenmeat

See you're never too old to learn something new every day! I had all those books back then, but I guess music theory took over and I started looking at (and playing) the neck like the keyboard of a piano and I don't play chords as a form. I move the individual fingers to form harmonies that move thru minors and majors -- sevenths and major sevenths, sixths minor, major and so on. Like augmenting a C minor chord (in root position) which looks like an A flat chord (and is) and then moving that augmented tone (finger) up to make a C minor sixth chord which looks like an F7 (and is). All of that is a C minor chord progression to me. Or playing a three note D7 on the inside at the sixth fret and moving the A note down one fret to form a D7 flat 5 chord, which looks (and is) like an A flat chord then moving all 3 fingers down one fret to make a G7 chord. Then move the first and second fingers down one fret to form a C7 chord and then repeat the whole afore mentioned process. These are cycle of fifth movements. Is this interesting? Eddy





That was really interesting. I've never heard the banjo fingerboard related to the piano keyboard like that. Thanks for posting.

David

Compass56 - Posted - 08/03/2009:  20:54:22


David, you're right. Eddy is amazing. He, Cynthia, and Vappie are my banjo heroes.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 08/04/2009:  03:50:08


John,

You´re so correct in your view - why shouldn´t you play in a way, that suits you and maybe only you?

I - first of all - will have to bless this. As you and many others know, I´ve over many years developed my own techniques and style. I´ve never had any lessons or influences from other players - I did develope it all by myself.

That´s f.ex. why, I use my left thumb for most chord settings plus bass fill-in scales. And I´m a 3-finger pick-holding guy most of the time. And I use a 1.25 gauge triangular pick. And etc. etc. etc.

So be an anarchist like me - you have my blessing (though I´m an atheist also - LOL!)

Kindliest regards

Polle

aroblin - Posted - 08/04/2009:  04:11:39


John--

Lots of tenor players, including me, mute the A string with the left hand. It's also a common technique on plectrum, guitar and similar instrument.

You don't need anyone else's blessing to do what sounds good to you. Trust your ear.

Andrew

Compass56 - Posted - 08/04/2009:  06:00:26


You said something there Andrew. Truer words were never spoken.

beezaboy - Posted - 08/05/2009:  16:12:33


Thank you for the reassurance. I am not a banjo rogue, iconoclast or innovator. I am trying to be a tenor banjo survivor. Why I ask these questions is to profit from your experiences. Don't want to engage in a technique or practice that has failed and slow progress and get bad muscle memory and bad banjo karma. For me, the tried and true is best practice!!

Beezaboy

wrentree - Posted - 08/05/2009:  20:03:37


Is this what you are looking for?

c------------- ------e
Five foot two,Eyes of Blue,
a
But oh what those five feet can do,
f ----------- g7--------- c
has anybody seen my gal.
-----------e
Now if you run into,
----------e
A five foot two,
-------------a
Covered in pearls,
--------------------d7
A diamond ringAnd all those things,
-----------------g7
Bet your life..da da da da.
------------ c
Turned up nose,
----------------e
Turned down hose,
------------------ a
DadadadadadadaDaaa
f------------- g7---------c
Has anybody seen my gal.



Harold


Edited by - wrentree on 08/05/2009 20:10:11

Compass56 - Posted - 08/06/2009:  04:06:46


Harold, thanks for the lyrics. There are a couple of spots where I had a word or two wrong. Thanks for clearing the words up.

By the way, those F chords are OK, by D7 is really what's happening there.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 08/06/2009:  05:07:35


Thank Harold for the chords ( me too- Thanks, Harold)

I gave you the words. ;-)

I''ll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I''ll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron

wrentree - Posted - 08/06/2009:  05:43:22


I should have done it right in the beginning boys. Here are all the lyrics and true chords. We have a trumpet player in our band who loves to play this song, and I love to play it with him.Enjoy.
BTW, it won't hurt to leave some of the tricky chords out. When you are playing it, there is enough sound that it is not going to be noticed.

Five foot two

C----------------- E7
Five foot two, eyes of blue,

--------------A7
Oh, what those five feet can do!

F------G------C --- Edim -Dm7-- G7
Has anybody seen my gal?


C--------------------E7
Turned up nose, turned down hose --

-----------------A7
Flapper? Yes, sir, one of those.

F-------G -----C----F----C
Has anybody seen my gal?



(Bridge:)


C/B-------------------------E7
Now, if you run into a five foot two

---------A7
All covered with fur,

-------------------D7
Diamond rings and all those things,

G------- Gdim ------ Dm7--G7
Bet your life it isn't her.


G-------------C--------------E7
But could she love, could she woo,

--------------------A7
Could she, could she, could she coo?

F--------G-----C-- Bm7-5-- A7
Has anybody seen my gal?

F------ G-----C --- F---C
Has anybody seen my gal?


Harold


Edited by - wrentree on 08/06/2009 05:55:50

beezaboy - Posted - 08/06/2009:  17:17:31


Thanks, Harold....We got it now. Next challenge is to play it!!!

Beezaboy



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