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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.
hawksbill - Posted - 07/25/2009: 09:32:29
Hi Greg...please assist me with this Gibson...what exactly is it, and what might it be worth? Thanks much, Joseph Z. E-bay #180385475155
HAWKSBILL Nothing really good, is easy.
hawksbill - Posted - 07/25/2009: 09:40:36
Sorry, didn't mean to jump topics!
HAWKSBILL Nothing really good, is easy.
Don Davis - Posted - 07/25/2009: 10:17:15
Veerryy interesting Greg. Especially when comparing the FON's to other lists. Thanks for the link!
jethrobodine - Posted - 07/25/2009: 10:24:32
Thanks Greg, it really is nice to have you back 
BTuno - Posted - 07/25/2009: 10:47:09
What the heck, not a banjo on the list.... or is that gonna be your next surprise! Where DO you find these things?
BT
"Ya gotta get all them tunes in yer head"
grich - Posted - 07/25/2009: 10:50:57
Plenty of other great forums out there ...... I'm always checking them out to see what new
DaveInCA - Posted - 07/25/2009: 11:44:45
When viewing that sheet, you can save it to your own computer as an Excel file...use the File pull-down.
Dave
Jeff Glasscock - Posted - 07/27/2009: 20:28:46
Also if you have a GMail acct you save it in documents.
stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 07/27/2009: 21:01:59
I don't get it . Excuse my ignorance but every instrument on the list is pre 1934
what good is that?
Storm
again excuse my ignorance just asking a question.
dhergert - Posted - 07/27/2009: 21:51:26
Greg, thanks for this list. I'm a big believer in the Biggs list (and it's decendants) but I've never been 100% convinced of its dates as being accurate, especially since it differs pretty significantly with many other published and unpublished dates. Tom himself noted those difficult issues early on and included statements to that effect on his now defunct website.
Of course then there is also some serious question about what the serial number really represents as far as actual production dates / shipping dates are concerned.
Given this list of instruments other than banjos, do you have any particular intuition about similarly serial numbered banjos and whether they follow the same dates as other instruments in this list?
Best,
-- Don
http://www.youtube.com/user/dh5string
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Edited by - dhergert on 07/27/2009 21:52:45
rexhunt - Posted - 07/28/2009: 04:33:54
The numbers on the sheet Greg posted are all 5 digits for the late 20's early 30's rather than the 4 or 3 digit batch number and up to two bin number digits (or is that the other way around?). Seems like the banjos had a whole separate method of serial numbers.
Rex
Oldtwanger - Posted - 07/28/2009: 05:28:40
Prewar Gibson banjos did not have serial numbers.
Yes, you read that right. Guitars, mandolin family instruments, and banjos all started life on pre-numbered factory order sheets as factory order numbers (FON), generally a one to four digit number followed by a dash number indicating the specific instrument within the group.
Upon completion, guitars and mandolins were assigned serial numbers.
Banjos did not receive serial numbers, but carried the FON as an identification number for purchasing, manufacturing and accounting purposes. These FONS were issued in generally numerical order up to about 1930, and became more and more random after that. They were not used exclusively by banjos, resulting in gaps, and they were not and cannot be used as "serial" numbers. They simply trace the instrument's purchasing and manufacturing costs, and ultimately offsetting income and profit, back to it's original Factory order.
As much as we would like to serialize and date our banjos, it simply cannot be done by these numbers other than to generalize based on construction details and existing shipping records.
There are many examples of instruments with FONs one digit apart shipped over a span of several years, depending on when the pre-numbered rims were pulled off the shelf for assembly of an instrument.
Oldtwanger Frank
''Information not shared is lost.''
Edited by - Oldtwanger on 07/28/2009 07:52:12
dhergert - Posted - 07/28/2009: 13:06:01
Yes, I've heard this before and it sounds pretty logical and right. But, as you and others have indicated, for before 1930 when satistically most of the surviving pre-war Mastertones were made, the FONs were pretty close to sequential, albeit mixed with other instrument types. In fact, the closer to 1925 that we get, the closer to sequentiallly accurate these numbers get.
As such, I go back to the question I posted to Greg, and would be happy to see your thoughts there too: Is there some relationship between the serial numbers/FONs that are listed in this non-banjo list that Greg has just provided, and those numbers -- call them FONs if we like -- that we see on our pre-war banjos, in particuar those banjos made before 1930?
I suspect that there is a relationship -- in fact I suspect that this non-banjo list provides more insight into banjo production dates before 1930 than anything we've seen before.
Could be wrong though. I'm all ears (or eyes, in this case ).
Best,
-- Don
http://www.youtube.com/user/dh5string
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Edited by - dhergert on 07/28/2009 13:10:37
southerndrifter - Posted - 07/28/2009: 13:34:22
I've come to respect Frank's thoughts and opinions and I think he is probably dead on with his logic. But, I still have questions.............for one, why did other Gibson instruments (mandolins, guitars etc.) have a true serial number, but banjos didn't? Second, why did banjos have FONs stamped, painted or chalked on, but other instruments didn't?
Lynwood Lunsford
If we had some ham, we could have some ham & eggs.........if we had some eggs!
Oldtwanger - Posted - 07/28/2009: 14:38:57
<<<I've come to respect Frank's thoughts and opinions and I think he is probably dead on with his logic. But, I still have questions.............for one, why did other Gibson instruments (mandolins, guitars etc.) have a true serial number, but banjos didn't? Second, why did banjos have FONs stamped, painted or chalked on, but other instruments didn't?>>>
Thank you, Lynwood, and yes, they are just thoughts and opinions albeit formed over many years of observation.
I don’t have answers for your questions, but I can share my thoughts about them:
2. Why did banjos have FONs stamped, painted or chalked on, but other instruments didn't?
I suspect this was mostly governed by the fact that unlike guitars and mandolins which were finished after final assembly, banjos were an assemblage of pieces and parts whose pieces were finished separately before final assembly. If we ass/u/me that the pre-numbered rim gave it’s identity to the final assemblage of parts, perhaps it went something like this:
A production worker has a pull list of parts for a particular Factory Order. For each dash number on the list he pulls parts for that model starting with a rim and puts those parts in the appropriate bin compartment of the rolling 40-bin carts that carried the instruments through the various departments. When a neck for a specific dash number was nearing completion it was fitted to it’s rim. A matching identifying number was penciled (sometimes stamped) at the neck heel so that after staining and finishing it would be returned to it’s proper mate. In similar fashion, the first part of the FON was painted into the resonator and upon completion and fitting of hardware, had the dash number matching the rim added with chalk. I can only guess that the large chalk number was added at that point as a more visible identifier to avoid mismatching rim and resonator. Presumably, all of this was enough of an identifier to satisfy the Accounting department’s requirements.
1. Why did other Gibson instruments (mandolins, guitars etc.) have a true serial number, but banjos didn't?
Beats me. I suppose Gibson just didn’t see the need, or they would have.
Oldtwanger Frank
''Information not shared is lost.''
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