DougMetzger - Posted - 07/19/2009:  11:57:36

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I am still trotting along in my journey of learning clawhammer for the last 2 weeks. When I play straight up frailing (i.e. Grandpa Jones style tunes) where my thumb mainly stays on the 5th string I can kinda thump the head with my thumb pad and get a nice percussive sound. However when I play some drop thumb like in Bill Cheatam and Blackberry Blossom the thump goes away. I guess my thumb is too busy doing other things. Is this ok or do I need to find some other kind of percussive technique while the thumb is busy playing other strings? The reason I ask is because Mike Iversons site, where he demonstrates the tunes, I hear some percussive sounds from time to time. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Doug

Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/19/2009:  12:06:51

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I wouldn't put any effort into getting it. Different players sound different. Compare Ken Perlman's playing with Alan Jabbour with Walt Koken's playing with Clare Milliner. Both of them folllow the fiddle precisely, but they don't sound the same.

Bill

Kitt - Posted - 07/19/2009:  12:27:05

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Mike has a youtube wherein he describes five percussive techniques for clawhammer banjo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVqWF_FC554

TomJoad - Posted - 07/19/2009:  12:35:05

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I used to bash the banjo drum and strings with the side of my hands every time I strummed across the strings, but I nowadays I do it much less. It emphasises and brings out the back beat. It can help keep a band's rhythm tight. You could always try tapping a tambourine with your foot instead if you wanted to keep the back beat steady.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/drcce2001/

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Edited by - TomJoad on 09/04/2009 06:27:31

Alpha Omicron - Posted - 07/19/2009:  12:42:43

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The thumb thump thing is a matter of personal style. Some people try to avoid it entirely, some people use it to help keep time. Do whatever you think is the most fun.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/19/2009:  14:03:29

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I just hauled out my banjo and played Blackberry Blossom. It's percussive all right, but I get it from hitting the 1st string and (usually) sliding off onto the head. Still somewhat percussive if I just hit the first and not the head. That just comes naturally to me; I'm making no attempt to either play percussively or not. That's generally characteristic of my playing, melodic or not.

Bill

DougMetzger - Posted - 07/19/2009:  14:53:20

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Bill, that makes sense. Sometimes I just go off the first string after I hit it and let it thump into the head but I wasnt sure if that was proper or acceptable technique. It is easy for me do to this though because of the 1/2" bridge that I use. I am thinking of just letting the thumb hit if playing a frailing tune or an easy version of something like Cripple Creek or just letting the middle finger slide into the head after striking the string for more complex tunes. (I dont use my first finger to play clawhammmer style). As a matter of fact I dont use my first finger for bluegrass either. I guess it just doesnt want to cooperate ;)

Doug

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Edited by - DougMetzger on 07/19/2009 15:08:07

jimh269b - Posted - 07/19/2009:  15:11:06

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as long as you dont quit doug

jim reed

DougMetzger - Posted - 07/19/2009:  15:54:38

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I dont think I could quit if I wanted to Jim. Thought about it but the thought hurts too much.

Doug

Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/19/2009:  18:15:46

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Playing banjo is kind of like hitting a baseball. You don't mess with success. Stan Musial, one of the best hitters ever, batted from a crouch no coach would ever endorse or teach. But the coaches had the sense not to change Musial's approach either. Same with the banjo. If your approach works and sounds good, it's right.

Bill

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/19/2009:  20:27:48

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Actually, There is much to be said for correcting technique problems since not everyone is Stan Musial. If you want to thump you should do it, but if you said you wanted to substitute razor blades for strings, I wouldn't advise you stay on that particular path.

Not thumping is something you can learn, just as you can learn to thump ON the beat and not between them. Badly timed thumps can throw other people off the rhythm. As a banjo player you are responsible for keeping the entire band ON rhythm. If you play alone it does not matter, but if you want to play with others try to make your playing fit in well.

The reason your thump vanishes in drop thumb tunes is because when you are dropping the thumb to an inner string it cannot hit the head at all. There is little you can do about it. Remember Jones did little if any drop thumb.


If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Big Doug Nez - Posted - 07/20/2009:  06:09:16

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I play over the scooped neck most of the time but when I play over the head I can opt to thump the thumb a little, or since I play with my index finger I can knock with my middle finger especially when playing notes on the 1st string. I'm not sure if this is textbook form but I figure if I can do, or not do it, at will, whats the harm, besides it sounds cool.

mrmanley - Posted - 09/04/2009:  06:42:57

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I guess it never really occurred to me to think about the "thump" as a primary rather than a second-order sound. I tend to whack the head with my thumb sometimes when thumbing the fifth string, but it's not something I plan on. And sometimes I hit the head when noting on the first string. It depends on the tune. (And if you play over the neck, you're not going to get a "thump" at all -- though I guess the "cluck" serves the same percussive purpose.)

I've seen some players tap the head with the pinkie or ring while playing, but I can't do that because it messes up my frailing motion.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 09/04/2009:  14:52:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Not thumping is something you can learn, just as you can learn to thump ON the beat and not between them. Badly timed thumps can throw other people off the rhythm.

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That is a good point.
Unless you are playing some sort of thumb-lead style,
remember that in CH the ON-beats (Downbeats - 1&3,
and Backbeats- 2&4) are played with the index/middle finger.
The thumb, whether on the 5th-string or during a drop-thumb
plays on the off-beat (i.e., the &'s in 1&2&3&4&). Thumping the
head during the thumb to 5th string would emphasize the off-beat,
whereas, the index sliding off the 1st string and hitting the head
would mark the beat.

The cluck is a good percussive technique that often comes on the backbeat,
and is playable even over the fingerboard.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

Clawdan - Posted - 09/08/2009:  07:13:18

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I found myself and nowdays with my students that at the beginning you tend to thump more as the motion of your right hand is broader/larger (as in the example of grandpa style) whereas as you become more accurate with your hits, the motion becomes smaller (as in your bb example) so the hits become fewer (and less intense when they happen). If you play over the scoop, you likely won't hit in any case. I suspect that your two examples show you both extremes and you will eventually be able to control it better hitting when you choose to and not when you don't. Like most have said, it is a personal choice but in the case of recording you have to determine if the percussion adds or detracts from the recording and in jam sessions, whether you thump on the "right" beat or half of the beat (which could start a whole new thread in itself!).


Play nice ,
Dan "Ain't no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Now teaching Clawhammer Banjo and Old Time Fiddle at San Diego Old Time Music
Get started with Dan's Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications) THEN:
Come to Clawcamp! www.ClawCamp.com

rhyzome - Posted - 09/08/2009:  11:00:12

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I'm about six months along the same learning clawhammer journey and I found Dave Holt's 2 video set on Clahammer Repertoire to be invaluable in learning different rhythmic variations. Thumping, mixing drop and double thumbing, clucking and vamping, etc. After sitting and practicing with these videos for a couple of weeks I found that I could easily shift rhythmic emphasis by double thumbing instead of bum-diddying, and that this kind of rhythmic variation is more subtle than a thump but very effective.

Holt's style (at least in these videos) is what I would describe as driving, with lots of rhythmic variation, as opposed to, say, Bob Carlin's instructional videos which hew tightly to a traditional arrangement. Both have enormous value as tools, but for practicing rhythmic variations I'd recommend Holt.

stringbeaner - Posted - 09/10/2009:  13:35:32

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When I first started playing CH I thumped quite a bit but my grandaddy said, "Quit that! you ain't playin' no drum! But it seemed to go away on it's own. I can do it or not. Mostly not. Too much thumping on the head is distracting to me.

Stringbeaner