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Wes Lassiter - Posted - 07/03/2009: 17:31:39
A close banjo friend of mine and a far better player than I said something I disagree with concerning the use of tab and copying a players work note for note. His contention is that if you mimic another player through tab your ability to improvise will be stunted and that you will basicly be a clone with not much ability to play anything else on the fly except what you know from tab. My disagreement comes from the fact that I am trying to learn a lot of Scott Vestal's material straight from the tab book note for note. I am spending hours at it only in hopes of understanding how he thinks and hopefully adopt some of his infinite wisdom to my playing by knowing a good amount of his moves and fingering. It also has gotten me to slow way down and is already helping me in jam sessions for my brain is thinking at the moment in terms of how he would try to approach the break. What is wrong with that?
Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.
Spinoza
The KIDD - Posted - 07/03/2009: 17:50:50
Hey Wes,
Yeah , but MAN , you gotta look at the level of tunes your workin on.. . Your abilty to improvise has already been developed and your simply furthering your education by witnessing first hand , as I did , all the lil goodies Scott has to offer by way of text and I KNOW , your listening to it too....I learned most of BG 95 and 96 by ear AND Scott showin me himself.. Now I agree with your friend whole heartedly about beginners and early Int. players because Ive seen it first hand for 16yrs in the students AND in myself during the early 80s'..He should nt have been implying that toward you. Im sure your knowledge of the fretboard and its theory is adv. enough for tab not to hurt your improv ablilty.
John
http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass
Edited by - The KIDD on 07/03/2009 17:53:29
PharmBoy - Posted - 07/03/2009: 18:02:14
I think there is no problem as long as you work on both ends of the spectrum. Being able to read tabs fluently is a nice skill to have, and as you point out, you can learn a lot from another artist by copying his licks. OTOH, you need to be able to take a tune, and fit rolls to it, along with left-hand techniques. Both are essential.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no growth in the Comfort zone, and no comfort in the Growth zone.
"The instrument proper to them is the Banjar, which they brought hither from Africa."
-Thomas Jefferson
( )======"===::}
Wes Lassiter - Posted - 07/03/2009: 18:03:45
That is my point John. I understand if I was some clone that said gee Big Sandy River can only be played this precise way. Also Scott's ability to interpret notes is understanding I crave. For example Daley's Reel really difficult and intricate for me. By learning this tune it will only increase my knowledge of the fretboard in other b flat situations. On the A part of up on the Blue Ridge Scott triple thumbs the basic theme of the song. I emailed him and said is that correct? He said it was and he does double or triple thumb slower notes for the power and effect. I never would have understood that without the tab or ever asked the question.
Anyway that is it for now.
Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.
Spinoza
Edited by - Wes Lassiter on 07/03/2009 18:04:40
DougMetzger - Posted - 07/03/2009: 18:37:01
Theres nothing wrong with tab, regardless of tune or skill level. Sometimes I wish the old coots would get off their stump and realize we dont have to learn by slowing down records and detuning banjos anymore. After playing for a few years you'll learn to put your own stuff in a tune. If not.....who cares? Play it the way you like it.
Doug
Glenn Tate - Posted - 07/03/2009: 19:27:03
Doug,
Some of us old coots, still use tab occasionally.
"Opportunities are never lost. Someone will pick up the ones you miss!"
"Your never lost, if you don''t care where you are."
Glenn
wrentree - Posted - 07/03/2009: 19:27:38
I don't think that it is always the more experienced pickers who berate Tab. I think that there are a lot of the inexperienced too, on here who are afraid of tab or are thinking that tab will in some way impair their picking on down the road.
Really, to think that I could be a clone of Earl if I copied his style using his tabs, wouldn't be such a bad idea anyway.
I just like to listen to all the people who play one particular song and listen to all the different ways they play them on the jukebpx.
You can't use tab like sheet music. Mainly because of the difference between a piano recital and a band or jam setting. Sheet music is used when 1 person is playing and when you get in a band or jam setting, you better be ready to play a lot of different songs on the fly, with other people.
Harold
OutlawSteph - Posted - 07/03/2009: 20:24:02
The best way to NOT get stuck in a rut using TAB is to learn the arranged part, but then replace some measures/licks with your own. This will be instictive eventually.. I'm never totally satified with someone else's work and will make minor changes.
Rick McKeon - Posted - 07/03/2009: 21:02:58
How do we learn anything? Learning the arrangements, licks, solos, etc. of great players has always been an important tool. All the great players will tell you about their influences. Knowledege will not limit you - it will only give you some more tools of expression. If you want to "play what you hear" you have to be able to hear something.
Rick
fixdent - Posted - 07/04/2009: 04:48:58
I think it has to work both ways. After learning a few songs by tab, you get to start to 'feel' for differnent songs. Once you start to jam with other folks...well, you can't know all the songs....so you have to quickly learn to 'improvise" with your friends.
--
Gold Star GF-85 - Posted - 07/04/2009: 04:53:36
I believe that in Earl Scruggs book he states how to play each part but then encourages you once you have learned it, to play it how you feel comfortable. So if you lilke playing it as it is on the Tab, then don't worry about what someone else thinks, to many people worry about way to much petty stuff, just enjoy your Banjo and your music.
Big John,
1987 Gibson Earl Scruggs Standard
1986 Stelling Sunflower
1980''s Iida Arch Top
minstrelmike - Posted - 07/04/2009: 07:15:08
I think your friend is absolutely correct--if you only learn breaks note for note (by tab or by mp3 is irrelevant), then you aren't really learning the improvisation, you are merely learning the result of it.
The trick to really learning it is to take the next step (and that's why the approach fails for most people).
The next step is trying to figure out different songs in the same style WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
I always tell people that unless they spend some amount of time learning the actual melody and then trying to create breaks on their own, none of the stuff they get by copying the masters helps them in learning _improvisation_ or creativity, it only helps them with playing memorized licks.
The issue is that most of the truisms that people spew about learning music or becoming creative have multiple parts but most folks only focus on a single piece and that's never enough to give you the full story. If you cannot play something exact, well you can't play it. But playing a perfect copy is not improv in any way, shape or form.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
spoonfed - Posted - 07/04/2009: 07:38:59
I have only been on the hangout about six months now but this topic I have noticed is a real old chestnut; "to tab or not to tab, that is the question" as a relative novice scruggs stylist I cant use tabs, just dont suit me, so I, like a lot of others learn by ear and when I am celebrating my newly aquired licks, runs etc nearly all of my tab reading buddies will say "oh yeah thats outa Earls book or Pete Wernicks book" or whoever they are studying and when they proceed to show me tab by way of explanation I see they are right. It occurs to me that for us guys and gals on this ride, all roads lead to scruggs style or something very like it, thats bluegrass banjo. when we cant get it exactly right we compromise by making small changes to accomodate our shortcomings and thats what makes us sound individual but still recognisable as bluegrass banjo pickers, those (sometimes) small changes are what seperate Sonny from Earl, the vast majority of listeners hear only Beverly Hillbillies or Deliverance and it takes a real student of the banjo to differentiate one from another. so in my humble opinion learn how you like you are still not gonna sound just like anybody else but you unless you were created by Packard Bell
spoonfed
Wes Lassiter - Posted - 07/04/2009: 09:01:34
I agree with all you said and the context of what you said is totally true. Actually exploring all opinions about this has been a learning experience. The hardest part still for me is loving and listening to all that is available and for so long I felt cooped up and not able to enjoy all this wonderful music. There is a plus side and a down side to being the big fish in the little pond. The plus side is I am putting so much alone time just me and my banjo that my learning curve is really doing things I never imagined for yes i get bored with the level of talent around here. The downside is i need to reach out and play with superior musicians but it is always hard to do that because of living in such a remote place. Time is an enemy I cannot deny and yes I will have to get out in the world here soon. I fully intend to do that. I guess that is why these workshops mean so much for outstanding musicians such as yourself are around and help me through this time of isolation so to speak. As far as tab goes it and jamming with reordings are my only savior at the moment. Really the only way I can get better considering the circumstances. I am happy and you are right
Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.
Spinoza
chrome - Posted - 07/04/2009: 13:36:40
Bascially tap is a form of communication, Ask yourself this?????? How many times have you watched a orchestra and none of the people playing had sheet music in frony of them? Are they using it for a crutch? The answer is no...I use tab as I guide because there is no way in heck I can remembeer a thousand songs and if you say you can your telling a lie.
Tab is the best thing that has ever came out for the starting musician, Bela Fleck uses tab.....That's good enough for me.
Rich Weill - Posted - 07/04/2009: 23:08:07
quote:
Originally posted by Rick McKeon
Learning the arrangements, licks, solos, etc. of great players has always been an important tool.
I agree that tab is a useful tool for learning how great players have ornamented a tune with various licks, runs, etc. What I don't agree with is the idea that learning how great players have ornamented a tune is the way a beginner should be learning to play the banjo. A banjo student has a whole lot to learn before getting to this point, and that "whole lot" can be learned as well -- if not better -- without tab. Rolls, chords, playing rolls over a chord progression, adding the melody notes of a song to the roll being played over the song's chord progression, playing a second (and a third) roll over that chord progression with melody notes added -- these are what banjo students should be learning. All of these things can be learned without tab. And there are advantages to learning them without tab. For example, students should be picturing rolls as finger patterns, not string patterns. Seeing them as finger patters increases their versatility many fold. But when written out in tab, they're only written as string patterns. A reverse roll -- also called a forward-reverse or forward-backward roll -- has a TIMT MITM finger pattern. That finger pattern can be played 9 different ways (assuming that the "M" is always played in the 1st string and the second "T" is always played on the 5th string). The first four notes can be on strings 3215 or 4215 or 4315; the second four notes can be on string 1231 or 1241 or 1341 -- and combining the two halves gives you 9 possible combinations. A TM TIM TIM forward roll (with the second and third "T" on the 5th string and the "M" always on the 1st string) can be played 27 different ways -- as the first "T" and both "I" notes can each be on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th strings. When has a tab illustration of these rolls ever shown that? But banjo students must think of rolls in this way -- because that's how rolls are adjusted to pick a song's melody. Until a banjo student can play a fair number of song melodies over the proper chords using a variety of different rolls throughout the song -- all with good timing and technique and smooth note and chord changes -- that student shouldn't worry about the flashy bits you can add to the song, from tab or otherwise.
Banjoal - Posted - 07/05/2009: 05:38:01
Agree with PharmBoy, I use both.
Sometimes start with Tab, learn the song, and then think "maybe I could change this bar" to a different roll, LH technique, different string. "You are my Sunshine" has become my go-to song. I learned it first by tab but now have lots of variations, which it make it sound cool (and make it way more fun to play). But its always good to bounce my variations off my teacher, because sometimes it's not the best choice. Tony Triscka's Hot Licks book, he says something like "Don't put round pegs in square holes". What's round and what's square is hard for me.....
Sometimes, I work out a song by ear, then look at the tab, and then have a Eureka moment, of "oh this is how (insert your banjo hero) plays it". I start with a pick-pinch rhythm. But I really need to know in my head where the bars start and end.
What's important for either method is to know how the song goes, the melody. Tab without sound or knowledge of the melody does not help me much. Over time, you can learn from tab what a bar sounds like In your head, but I can't figure out the melody of the whole song this way.
My fifty cents, FWIW.
Al
beegee - Posted - 07/05/2009: 05:47:30
Is a master artist whose first painting was a "paint-by-numbers" any less of an artist?
__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca
Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/05/2009: 07:28:45
In my opinion, people who always voice such strong opposition to learning the breaks of the great masters who have come before them aren't capable of doing it themselves - so they have to rationalize away that lack of ability by saying that doing so is harmful to developing one's own style, or one's ability to improvise, whatever. That's a bunch of hooey!! Whether it be learning "by ear", or using tab, if you can learn to replicate the advanced playing of great pickers like Scruggs, Crowe, or Munde, you are becoming a better musician. That improved ability makes you more capable of being creative, not less capable.
Just ask J.D., Sonny or Big K whether they ever learned a Scruggs break note for note.
"Old soldiers and old sailors have a place to go,
but no one helps a railroad bum like poor old Hobo Joe".
Wes Lassiter - Posted - 07/05/2009: 08:04:26
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
In my opinion, people who always voice such strong opposition to learning the breaks of the great masters who have come before them aren't capable of doing it themselves - so they have to rationalize away that lack of ability by saying that doing so is harmful to developing one's own style, or one's ability to improvise, whatever. That's a bunch of hooey!! Whether it be learning "by ear", or using tab, if you can learn to replicate the advanced playing of great pickers like Scruggs, Crowe, or Munde, you are becoming a better musician. That improved ability makes you more capable of being creative, not less capable.
Just ask J.D., Sonny or Big K whether they ever learned a Scruggs break note for note.
"Old soldiers and old sailors have a place to go,
but no one helps a railroad bum like poor old Hobo Joe".
I think that sums it up really well. It always amazes me how many folks are more talk than action. Like the old Nike thing. Just do it!!1 Banjo Wes All things excellent are difficult as they are rare. Spinoza
Banjocoltrane - Posted - 07/05/2009: 10:01:34
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
In my opinion, people who always voice such strong opposition to learning the breaks of the great masters who have come before them aren't capable of doing it themselves - so they have to rationalize away that lack of ability by saying that doing so is harmful to developing one's own style, or one's ability to improvise, whatever.
Just ask J.D., Sonny or Big K whether they ever learned a Scruggs break note for note.
Well put  http://www.jodyhughesmusic.comVisit My Music Blog for monthly articles on basic musicianship, theory, etc http://jodyhughesmusic.blogspot.com/
minstrelmike - Posted - 07/05/2009: 10:02:11
My opinions on how to play banjo do not come from my limitations; they always come from the point of view of cost-effectiveness for the student. I'm with Rich. depending on where you are in your career, learning the exact notes a master plays can be the very best thing to do or it can be a complete waste of time (unless you think this is the _one_ thing in the world that has no cons, only pros).
When I used to live in a different city, there was one guy who wanted to play the banjo so I was going to teach him. However, the _only_ song he wanted to learn was Blackberry Blossom. I (and several other banjoists I knew in the town) tried to convince him that learning rolls and chords and simpler songs first was a better (more cost-effective) step. Yet he persisted and after 5 years, could almost pluck his way thru the first half of the song.
Earl Scruggs did not sound like Earl when he'd only been playing for 2 years. Telling some 2-year banjo student he can sound like
Earl and play like Earl if he does this tab or copies this break off the record is disingenuous at best.
To be the most successful, learn the right thing at the right time.
Learning the right thing at the wrong time wastes your learning time.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
BanjoDuster - Posted - 07/05/2009: 12:03:55
A lot of great observations shared here!
I guess I'll throw my two cents worth into the ring (discussion). I think one's perspective on the benefits or not of using tabs is highly subjective (no geat revelation!). I also believe that how long one has been playing the banjo is another influencial factor. I've been playing for 2-1/2 years. With exception of the first 3-1/2 months when I had a teacher, I've been "on my own."
All of my progress, with few exceptions, has been gained through "good" practice, many practice hours and use of tabs. While I have learned some breaks to songs "by ear," I don't think that I'm ready to break away from tab. My greatest concern is that I'll either add too many notes, forget part of the melody or both.
Another point is that if I had not used tab at all, I may have gotten discouraged and impatient. That could have led me to letting my banjo collect dust or worse. What's wrong with using modern technology to help me learn the banjo and not regress to ways of yesteryear? To each his (or her) own, right?
Tabs have helped me to learn (and practice) new licks and also practice rolls (develop that muscle memory!). Hopefully, in time my efforts will reward me, both in terms of confidence and competence.
In contrast, I must say, there are many fine upcoming banjo players that play just by ear. They can play much better than I!
I do, believe, however, that I will eventually transition to mostly playing by ear. I'll let it just happen "naturally." To me, the tab issue will always be controversial as long as subjectivity reigns.
Edited by - BanjoDuster on 07/06/2009 13:04:18
stanleytone - Posted - 07/05/2009: 12:45:47
if tab is good enough for bela,its good enough for me
"Yeah,I play the banjo.You gotta problem with that?"
bones - Posted - 07/05/2009: 13:20:44
i have had periods where i liked/disliked the use of tab. however somewhere along the way i stuck on the idea that it is just one of many tools. Do you use a hammer for everything? or a screwdriver for every task ? of course not. just realize in what ways you can use tab and benefit from it. but don't make it the only tool in the workshop.
For Fun and Frolic the One and Only "Mr. Bones" and his trusty 5 string Banjo !
BanjoDuster - Posted - 07/05/2009: 15:13:31
"Bones," I like your analogy. It makes sense.
Edited by - BanjoDuster on 07/06/2009 13:03:27
wkb28791 - Posted - 07/05/2009: 15:26:47
I can't speak for anyone else, but tab has been a real curse for me. 
Regards,
wkb28791
"We can''t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Albert Einstein
Wes Lassiter - Posted - 07/05/2009: 15:41:25
quote:
Originally posted by wkb28791
I can't speak for anyone else, but tab has been a real curse for me.
Regards,
wkb28791
"We can''t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Albert Einstein
I am wondering why has it been a curse? Explain Banjo Wes All things excellent are difficult as they are rare. Spinoza
Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/05/2009: 15:44:40
As I've said before, I find it amazing sometimes to imagine the perception of reality of some here who describe themselves as "Expert/Professional" and consider themselves competent to instruct and give advice on just about any topic that comes up for discussion.
In this thread, a couple of the posters have links to their instructional websites. I would invite you to go to those websites and listen to the music there... and perhaps take a listen to the music files stored on their BHO homepages. I think that should shed much light on who is qualified to give competent advice on learning how to play bluegrass banjo... and who's not. Please note - I didn't mention any names and I didn't say that anyone was better than anyone else. That is left for you to decide.
You don't have to be as good as Jim Mills or Jens Kruger to be a competent instructor and give reliable advice. But damn... where are we, the twilight zone???
Signed,
Fed up with bullshyatt
555Glenn - Posted - 07/05/2009: 16:43:03
Nothing is wrong with that.
LEar it by ear or video or tab JUST LEARN IT
I use all 3 methods
quote:
Originally posted by Wes Lassiter
A close banjo friend of mine and a far better player than I said something I disagree with concerning the use of tab and copying a players work note for note. His contention is that if you mimic another player through tab your ability to improvise will be stunted and that you will basicly be a clone with not much ability to play anything else on the fly except what you know from tab. My disagreement comes from the fact that I am trying to learn a lot of Scott Vestal's material straight from the tab book note for note. I am spending hours at it only in hopes of understanding how he thinks and hopefully adopt some of his infinite wisdom to my playing by knowing a good amount of his moves and fingering. It also has gotten me to slow way down and is already helping me in jam sessions for my brain is thinking at the moment in terms of how he would try to approach the break. What is wrong with that?
Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.
Spinoza
Check Out www.TheBluegrassAcademy.com
Rich Weill - Posted - 07/05/2009: 18:03:57
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoDuster
A lot of great observations shared here!
I guess I'll throw my two cents worth into the ring (discussion). I think one's perspective on the benefits or not of using tabs is highly subjective (no geat revelation!). I also believe that how long one has been playing the banjo is another influencial factor. I've been playing for 2-1/2 years. With exception of the first 3-1/2 months when I had a teacher, I've been "on my own."
All of my progress, with few exceptions, has been gained through "good" practice, many practice hours and use of tabs. While I have learned some breaks to songs "by ear," I don't think that I'm ready to break away from tab. My greatest concern is that I'll either add too many notes, forget part of the melody or both.
Another point is that if I had not used tab at all, I may have gotten discouraged and impatient. That could have led me to letting my banjo collect dust or worse. What's wrong with using modern technology to help me learn the banjo and not regress to ways of yesteryear? To each his (or her) own, right?
Tabs have helped me to learn (and practice) new licks and also practice rolls (develop that muscle memory!). Hopefully, in time my efforts will reward me, both in terms of confidence and competence.
In contrast, I must say, there are many fine upcoming banjo players that play just by ear. They can play much better than I!
I do, believe, however, that I will eventually transition to mostly playing by ear. I'll let it just happen "naturally." To me, the tab issue will always be controversial as long as subjectivity reigns.
I hope that I didn't drift too far from the initial topic. Anyone have change for a nickel?
BanjoDuster, I think you represent a large number of, as you put it, "upcoming banjo players." Learning from tab has been a necessity, and it has served you better than the alternatives available to you. Perhaps if you had had the benefit of a teacher like mine -- or the exposure, in whatever manner, to the method I've been taught -- you might feel differently. [I've also looked at lots of different ways to learn: tab, instruction books, instruction videos, the Internet. So I have some basis for comparison.] As to Flying Eagles comment that "people who always voice such strong opposition to learning the breaks of the great masters who have come before them aren't capable of doing it themselves," there is something to that. But I would modify that position slightly: Some people voice opposition to banjo students learning the breaks of the great masters before they are capable of doing so, by first learning more generic versions of these song.
Banjophobic - Posted - 07/06/2009: 08:56:30
I want to see threads that say "Let the Tab debate END"... . I think there's been enough 'debate' about tabs for everyone to get it. Use tab if it is helpful to you and dont if it proves to be a hindrance. Its not much more complicated than that. 
caloscalzo - Posted - 07/06/2009: 09:00:18
Funny how often this spittin' match crops up. :)
Craig
________________________________
From the Heart of the Bluegrass
GHohwald - Posted - 07/06/2009: 09:12:23
I saw in the front of a piano book by Suzuki which said the purpose of learning written music is to memorize the piece. Once memorized you can then add feeling, dynamics and start to work with it. You should memorize the piece as quickly as possible.
Personally if I could I would learn and memorize every good break or solo that existed. At the rate of 20 hours per break and the fact that I play less than 30 minutes per day results in me only being able to memorize 4 or 5 breaks per year.
Therefore as an alternative I use tab to learn the important parts (The parts that carry melody) and then substitute licks that I already know for the rest of the song. I also limit my learning to tablature for which a recording is available. I forget the song I think it's Cuckoos Nest out of the Tony Trishka Fiddle songs book. I love the first break and do not care for the second. By having a recording i can eliminate the 2nd break in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes. with out the recording it could take a few hours.
quote:
Originally posted by caloscalzo
Funny how often this spittin' match crops up. :)
Craig
________________________________
From the Heart of the Bluegrass
Geoff Hohwald http://www.freebanjovideos.comhttp://www.5dollarbanjolessons.com
stringbreaker - Posted - 07/06/2009: 09:28:27
On this thread we have an expert giving advice that has soundfiles resembling those of a beginner. Another one of those experts practices only 30 minutes a day? Experts should spend more time practicing and less time giving advice!!
Edited by - stringbreaker on 07/06/2009 09:32:32
555Glenn - Posted - 07/06/2009: 10:18:40
Who are these experts your so bent aginst?
Why should everything on a persons BHO sound collection have to be perfect?
quote:
Originally posted by stringbreaker
On this thread we have an expert giving advice that has soundfiles resembling those of a beginner. Another one of those experts practices only 30 minutes a day? Experts should spend more time practicing and less time giving advice!!
Check Out www.TheBluegrassAcademy.com
Edited by - 555Glenn on 07/06/2009 10:33:06
custom15player - Posted - 07/06/2009: 11:23:25
There is no debate - whatever works for you is good but odds are against you ever being a good banjo player if you don't develop your ear in the process.
It''s great to be a Florida Gator!
If you can catch more flies with honey why do outfielders wear gloves?
xplainer - Posted - 07/06/2009: 12:03:08
No, I'm no instructor or "expert", but here is MY story:
I refer to tab when needed. But learn most songs by listening to it - many times over.
If their is a lick that I just can't find, I pull the tabs.
But tab is my secondary resource.
-Jimmy
Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/06/2009: 12:41:50
quote:
Originally posted by 555Glenn
Who are these experts your so bent aginst?
Why should everything on a persons BHO sound collection have to be perfect?
[quote]Originally posted by stringbreaker
On this thread we have an expert giving advice that has soundfiles resembling those of a beginner. Another one of those experts practices only 30 minutes a day? Experts should spend more time practicing and less time giving advice!!
Relax, Glenn... he's not talking about you. And thanks for chiming in, stringbreaker. I guess maybe this isn't the Twilight Zone after all.  "Old soldiers and old sailors have a place to go, but no one helps a railroad bum like poor old Hobo Joe".
minstrelmike - Posted - 07/06/2009: 13:13:38
I can read tab faster than I can listen to a song, in exactly the same way I can read a transcript of a speech or television broadcast much faster than I can listen to it.
When I first started out, learning arrangements worked faster for me using tab than simply by listening. I know for some other folks a sheet of tab looks like a set of tensor field equations and it isn't helpful in the least and certainly doesn't save the student time.
However, at some point in my learning, (after memorizing a boatload of specific arrangements and jamming with others), I got to the point where learning a song for me now consisted of getting melody and the chord progression. At that point, it became faster for me to learn a _song_ simply by listening to it a few times or reading the sheet music. Trying to learn the _song_ from tab now became more time-consuming for me because I was learning different things. Since all I want is the melody, if given tab I need to pluck thru a lot more notes, play the arrangement up-to-speed, then listen for which notes are melody and which are fill. Tab now takes more time for me in that situation. If I want a specific lick, it's quicker, but if I just want melody it is the slowest.
If tab is working for you, that doesn't mean it will continue to work for you.
Rule #1 for life: If it works or doesn't work for anyone else is completely irrelevant.
Rule #2: things change and if you haven't tried tab for a couple years or tried ear-training or reading sheet for awhile, give it a second shot. As your skills improve, different things become more and less useful.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
555Glenn - Posted - 07/06/2009: 13:22:56
HI
Just wanted to listen to them so i could see if he had a point.
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
quote:
Originally posted by 555Glenn
Who are these experts your so bent aginst?
Why should everything on a persons BHO sound collection have to be perfect?
[quote]Originally posted by stringbreaker
On this thread we have an expert giving advice that has soundfiles resembling those of a beginner. Another one of those experts practices only 30 minutes a day? Experts should spend more time practicing and less time giving advice!!
Relax, Glenn... he's not talking about you. And thanks for chiming in, stringbreaker. I guess maybe this isn't the Twilight Zone after all.
"Old soldiers and old sailors have a place to go,
but no one helps a railroad bum like poor old Hobo Joe".
Check Out www.TheBluegrassAcademy.com
Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/06/2009: 13:36:57
So Glenn... do you know who he was talking about now? I do.
DOODEEEDOODOO DOODEEEDOODOO DOODEEEDOODOO DOODEEEDOODOO ... (Twilight Zone theme)
GHohwald - Posted - 07/06/2009: 14:12:38
That is a great comment. I think the words banjo player and expert don't belong together in the same sentence. I am continually amazed with how little I know and have been called on several points based on my opinions at BHO.. At clinics and in lessons, I am not challenged much which can lead to the belief that I know more than I know which has proved to be untrue. That being said, I've invested a lot of time in trying to come up with content for beginners and lots of folks have had success with the easy arrangements found at the following link. These are free video lessons:
http://www.freeguitarvideos.com/banjo/tabs.html
quote:
Originally posted by stringbreaker
On this thread we have an expert giving advice that has soundfiles resembling those of a beginner. Another one of those experts practices only 30 minutes a day? Experts should spend more time practicing and less time giving advice!!
Geoff Hohwald http://www.freebanjovideos.comhttp://www.5dollarbanjolessons.com
Wes Lassiter - Posted - 07/06/2009: 14:25:30
I will always be a student. The day I stop being a student is the day I start dying.
Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.
Spinoza
Rich Weill - Posted - 07/06/2009: 14:46:44
I'm no expert, and have never claimed to be one. I'm a student who has tried lots of different ways to learn, and who has had the great fortune of knowing a fabulous banjo teacher (Roger Sprung) who developed, over 50-odd years, a method of teaching the banjo -- without tab, sheet music, written instructions, or "follow the leader" instructions -- which is unmatched by anything I've seen before or since.
Regardless, the merit of someone's views on learning (or teaching) the banjo should not be based on his or her soundfiles. Teaching and playing are two different skills. Particularly teaching beginners.
Think of the greatest sports instructors and coaches. How few, if any, were great players themselves? Great players rarely are the best teachers. Understanding the problems of unskilled players, and communicating meaningful instruction to them, is a specialty in itself. Read "Masters of the 5-String Banjo." Very few of these masters explain what they do very clearly.
555Glenn - Posted - 07/06/2009: 15:46:51
I wish i had time to check everyones music files. But i checked a few and likesd all the MP3s i heard.
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
So Glenn... do you know who he was talking about now? I do.
DOODEEEDOODOO DOODEEEDOODOO DOODEEEDOODOO DOODEEEDOODOO ... (Twilight Zone theme)
Check Out www.TheBluegrassAcademy.com
pcfive - Posted - 07/06/2009: 16:36:01
"I'm never totally satified with someone else's work and will make minor changes."
Me too. Just because I think tabs are useful doesn't mean I'm a mindless robot. I play Fireball Mail exactly like the tab, just because I like it just the way it is. But most of the time my approach to learning a song is to listen to different versions, use various tabs, and add my own ideas.
Tabs can give you ideas and I don't see any danger in it, although I have been lectured and warned here several times. I think if you hate tabs maybe you just are not a visual learner, and that's fine. We are not all the same.
I know that I don't want to slow down records -- I don't have that much time.
pcfive
Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/06/2009: 16:41:34
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
Regardless, the merit of someone's views on learning (or teaching) the banjo should not be based on his or her soundfiles. Teaching and playing are two different skills. Particularly teaching beginners.
Well Rich, I suppose there's something to that. But I would expect that someone who is ready to pontificate in response to EVERY question posed would actually be able to play with baseline level of skill. But then again, what do I know... one man's trash is another man's treasure. Come on, face it man. In this case the emperor is butt nekkid. A musician who presumes to teach should be able to play with some level of proficiency; and more importantly, you would think that he/she would be sharp enough NOT to post stuff that's just TERRIBLE!!!! Sorry... but it's driving me nuts. I had a great teacher too, and I know how important a good teacher can be to helping beginners to become musicians. That's all I have to say about this. Now, back to the Twilight Zone... Page: 1 2 3
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But ya cant get the low major 3rds in there. Yeah, I mean geez, anybody taclking this stuff BETTER have some former improv skills on the ball cause Scott goes nuts on EVERYTHING.