oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/24/2009:  14:54:50

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Introduction

The current discussion on this subject has gone from poor to bad to completely inane. People are claiming that everything is being screwed up by northerners (northerners discovered and recorded hundreds of old time musicians southerners didn't care about back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. If you are going to argue based on home address alone - Northerners Saved Old Time Music when it was about to die). They feel anyone born north of Mason Dixon is genetically disposed to spit on the true style. Others claim that Rufus Crisp - (how many here have even heard him play?) is the ONE TRUE GOD we should all immolate. Still more see Ken Perlman as the only true prophet of Dan Emmett, and others think that we should all shut up and go home. I would be in that group but I already have a dog in this fight.

I propose that we each define the terms we are using so that others might best understand what we are talking about. I also suggest that if you discover a new term you would like to define after the discussion gets going -- do so, but make sure it is a well publicized announcement. I also request that each one define his or her own terms only - You cannot define the terms of a dead man - you can describe his playing but that is all. You don't know if his playing was based on Bach's use of sustinato blogigotto or Uncle Eef's coon dog howl.

Who knows? Maybe there is some sense to be made out of this. On to the definitions:

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/24/2009:  15:16:43

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Woodchuck's Definitions:

Did-dy aka Bum-dy aka Frail/Thumb is a one beat stroke whereby teh frailer sounds a string on the first half of the beat and the thumb lands on another string simultaneously. The thumb snaps forward sounding its string on the second half of the beat causing the hand to rise back to frail position again. This is a quick description but the entire explanation is found in chapter 3 of Rocket Science Banjo.

Ther are two important parts to the description above:

1) The thumb ALWAYS comes down on another string whenever the frailer hits - although it does not necessarily have to sound its string on the next eighth note. For basic description I have it sound every time - later I get into having the thumb NOT sound even though it goes through the motions.

Most people discover this not sounding effect all by themselves - it is actually easier than sounding with the thumb.

The idea is that the thumb gets into the habit of going to a string every stroke - thereby keeping the hand together and prefenting the entire motion to turn into a finger strum. The fingers must not strum the strings like a uke. They move from the hand only.

2) The thumb does not move. The hand drops to make the frail and the thumb stops the downward motion by catching on the 5th (or other) string. Once the thumb has caught it snaps forward (down) but since there is an immovable mass in the way (a String) the thumb's forward energy actually makes it fly back upward (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction).

This is the basic stroke of Clawhammer banjo and it has been used since the Minstrel stage. It is not used ALL the time, and there are many instances where it is impossible to play what is written without breaking the pattern. It is the BASIC stroke not the only stroke.


Bum Did-dy is not a basic stroke. The first stroke is "Bum" indicating a quarter note. This could be played as a basic stroke with the thumb stroke following as it should and playing silently, but beginners are usually not able to do a silent stroke. What has happened is that the second half of that stroke has been forgotten by generations of teachers who have neglected to show the silent "dy". Add in the fact thqat Pete Seeger did not know about the silent "dy" in clawhammer and assumed it was a loping stroke like his Basic Strum. Thousands have followed and few know about the actual clawhammer stroke.

Bum Did-dy is a rhythm - not a basic stroke. Did-dy Bum is also a rhythm, and if you play Bum Did-dy for a year or two, it becomes a difficult stroke. Bum _ - _ -dy is also a stroke That is Bum & 2 DY or an M skip -- which can also be Bum-dy _-dy. Quite frankly i would write all teh Bums with Dids but I'm trying to be readable to the largest possible audience.

That's where I'm at - Define your terms and Good Sir, Let's to it!

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Bill Rogers - Posted - 06/24/2009:  15:44:04

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Well said Tony. What follows is nothing you don't know, simply my own take on things. None of this was an issue at all until the "discovery" of the "Round Peak" musicians and their particular highly regional style. The popularity of that approach with other players outside the RP region has led to a proliferation of that style and the mistaken belief by many that it is the primary clawhammer approach. There is no one primary traditional style of what is now generally called clawhammer (with all its shades of detailed meaning). Traditional styles of banjo, clawhammer and otherwise, originated and developed in relatively isolated areas, particularly in the Mountain South, giving rise to many distinct styles of playing and a myriad of tunings. I long ago quit worrying about whether my largely-self-taught clawhammer approach is "authentic" or not. I play for my enjoyment and in a way that makes me happy. That's enough for me. I salute those who've learned to replicate particular styles and give us examples of such playing (notably Mike Seeger). But that's neither necessary for or desired by most players. Traditional players have always striven to put their own stamp on their playing and have always developed licks and approaches different from those of the players they learned from. Without debating whether there is really an ongoing tradition in the old sense any more, I don't see that players aren't variously involved in developing the general clawhammer approach further are doing any harm. Nor are the preservationists. But neither group should be attackiing the other. It's a "big tent" and we can all live in it. Now for my particular set of definitions; some will agree; others won't. I try to stay consistent when describing various players styles, but I know I have to explain my meanings regularly because no usage is universal. In terms of down-picking, for me, "frailing" is what is now called "bump-ditty," without the thumb dropping onto the inside strings. "Drop-thumb" brings the thumb inside periodically, more for rhythmic effect than particular notes, though that is done too. "Clawhammer (as I use the term) uses the thumb extensively on the inside strings to get melody notes. The difference in drop-thumb and clawhammer is subtle, and there's definite overlap. Remember, these are my usages. You're not wrong to define the terms in another way. But no one should assume their use of the terms without explanation will be understood by others to mean what the user intends.

Bill

Bill Rogers - Posted - 06/24/2009:  15:54:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by whitetopbanjo

quote from oldwoodchuckb:(northerners discovered and recorded hundreds of old time musicians southerners didn't care about back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. If you are going to argue based on home address alone - Northerners Saved Old Time Music when it was about to die).

Good lord, please tell me your kidding. I'd be glad to list you a bunch of folks who lived in NC and VA and recorded the musicians in their counties and made/make the recordings accessible. We didn't need your help then and we don't now. How many northern musicians got abandoned by you guys coming down to research out your "finds" and take them back up north to play for your friends and compare "rare tunes"?

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I don't know whether northerners saved dying music or not. I do know that, in terms of accessibility, the first recordings of southern banjo players I heard were on Tradition, Folkways and finally County records--the first two out of New York, the third started there and then transplanted to Virginia. These companies had national distribution and that made the music accessible outside the South. I don't doubt that natives of the region were recording and publishing the material. It just wasn't in national distribution that I was aware of in the 60s and early 70s, and thus not that accessible to those of us around the country who were interested in that music.

Bill

Chris Via - Posted - 06/24/2009:  17:50:18

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Lets throw our sources in there as well
Terms from older folks born in the 30s,
Clawhammer- Playing in a bum-ditty time with no full brush, no double thumbing the fifth, and dropping your thumb to the second string occationally. The strings are seperated, and its a clean, clear sound, very similar to one of the minstrel strokes. My Jimmy Sutton is an example. sources Oscar Wright, Jont Blevins, Cecil Thompson, and Lawrence Russell, Stella Kimball.
http://www.aca-dla.org/cdm4/results...cil+thompson
This was before it was all labled clawhammer.

Frail, This is another bum ditty style, with a heavy brush, and no drop thumbs. Hammer ons and pull offs are used as fillers. Jimmy Boyd,Larry Sigmon, Maggie Radar,
A Drop thumb frailer is the above only they drop the thumb to the 2nd string when needed.Enoch Rutherford, Wade Ward, Brien Fain,Trish Fore, Dent Wimmer, Matokie Slaughter, Harold Hausenfluck and Mac Traynham.
http://www.aca-dla.org/cgi-bin/view...CISOTITLE=10
Slang Finger Style, used his index on the way back up to grab the note usually sounded in the drop thumb. Ralph Stanley does this, Granpa Jones did this too.
Rap style, was another seperate style. Im not clear on the basics, because Ive heard several accounts. Someone can chime in on that one.

Chris Via
www.gilesmountainstringband.com

www.myspace.com/gilesmountainstringband

slabounty - Posted - 06/24/2009:  18:02:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
For the Record - I lived in the Haight-Ashbury in 1966-67. Anyone who cannot say the same is NOT a real Hippie. If you didn't know Pigpen and Owsley Stanley, Art Lesh and George Darling you are just an outside carpetbagger and us REAL hippies will never let you get away with calling yourselves by the proud name "HIP".

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Way off topic, but did you really know Pigpen, Owsley, and the rest? For the record, yes, I'm at least an ex/recovering hippie (well, by your definition not a *real* hippie, but you know what I mean ;-))



Scott LaBounty
Orange, CA

WIz47 - Posted - 06/24/2009:  18:08:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Via

Lets throw our sources in there as well
Terms from older folks born in the 30s,
Clawhammer- Playing in a bum-ditty time with no full brush, no double thumbing the fifth, and dropping your thumb to the second string occationally. The strings are seperated, and its a clean, clear sound, very similar to one of the minstrel strokes. My Jimmy Sutton is an example. sources Oscar Wright, Jont Blevins, Cecil Thompson, and Lawrence Russell, Stella Kimball.
http://www.aca-dla.org/cdm4/results...cil+thompson
This was before it was all labled clawhammer.

Frail, This is another bum ditty style, with a heavy brush, and no drop thumbs. Hammer ons and pull offs are used as fillers. Jimmy Boyd,Larry Sigmon, Maggie Radar,
A Drop thumb frailer is the above only they drop the thumb to the 2nd string when needed.Enoch Rutherford, Wade Ward, Brien Fain,Trish Fore, Dent Wimmer, Matokie Slaughter, Harold Hausenfluck and Mac Traynham.
http://www.aca-dla.org/cgi-bin/view...CISOTITLE=10
Slang Finger Style, used his index on the way back up to grab the note usually sounded in the drop thumb. Ralph Stanley does this, Granpa Jones did this too.
Rap style, was another seperate style. Im not clear on the basics, because Ive heard several accounts. Someone can chime in on that one.

Chris Via
www.gilesmountainstringband.com

www.myspace.com/gilesmountainstringband

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I'm with you on the definitions. I grow very weary of some folks here telling me what or what not is acceptable in the way of playing - and denigrating any style that isn't to their liking. As far as I'm concerned, all styles of playing are acceptable and welcome.





_______________________________

"F" The bloody agonizing chord of death.

roundpeakbanjos.com - Posted - 06/24/2009:  20:08:06

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This will probably be my only post to this. Round Peak Music wasn't discovered This is BS. It has been here for 200+ years and the music is as strong as ever in this area and still played by a few of us native Round Peakers. Yeah them folk did come and record here and SW VA. and expose others to this regional style which is good, but it is going overboard saying "if it wasn't for the northerns this music would be gone" I guess this is one of their only claims to fame to the ones who think this. Another person folks is forgetting is the founder of Mt. Airy's 1st radio station WPAQ Ralph Epperson. He recorded and documented music from 1943 till his passing in '06. All of these regional styles of SW Va. NW NC " INCLUDING ROUND PEAK MUSICIANS" were the biggest part of Ralph's passion for the station. He was all about the local musicians and bring there music to the listening audience. Everything was recorded. I know in fact because I helped my wife and Mr. Epperson inventory the collection before it was sent to The Southern Folklife Collection at UNC this is just part of the collection, 1100+ reel to reels, 100's of lacquer disc that he used a disc cutter to record directly to the record and many other recordings which he recorded. Really, Really thinking about it, if wasn't for Ralph the northern folks may have not even herd about the local musicains of this area. If it wasn't for BF Jarrell recording Charlie Lowe we would've never knew what he sounded like. Another person comes to mind. Mr Fred Williams from SW Va. was like the field recording expert from the 50's to the 1980's all of his recordings is housed at the Blue Ridge Institute Archive of Ferrum College in Ferrum Va. some of his stuff can be herd thru the digiatl libray of Appalachia especially the Rafe Brady stuff and Rafe learned to play from Frank Jenkins of Surry County http://www.aca-dla.org And I guess we could argue how you say Appalachia too. DaCosta Woltz's Southern Broadcaster's and Frank Jenkins' Pilot Mountaineers thought enough of their music to record in the Gennet session in Richmond 1927 and 1929 -----Over and out !-----

Round Peak Banjo''s by Kevin Fore
Lowgap, N.C.
www.roundpeakbanjos.com
I have a new CD out called Round Peak The Tradition Continues. I do all the clawhammer banjo work. It features all Round Peak tunes but 1 Bluegrass tune Head Over Heels done on a fretless The CD can be purchased directly from me for 15 bucks and I do accept PayPal. Some of the folks that helped me out were. Kirk Sutphin, Benton Flippen, Chester Mcmillian, David Holt, Verlin Clifton, Bobby Patterson, Katie Golding, Eddie Bond and my regular band Southern Pride
It is available now directly from me or CD Baby http://cdbaby.com/cd/kevinfore

Pluckin Mutha - Posted - 06/24/2009:  20:36:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Woodchuck's Definitions:

Did-dy aka Bum-dy aka Frail/Thumb is a one beat stroke whereby teh [ the?] frailer sounds a string on the first half of the beat..........

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If we're starting a "new" post clean and fresh, on the subject of "Bum Did-dy", why begin the list of definitions with that of "Did-dy"?
As the "Did-dy" is the second part of the phrase, that might prjeudice the outcome of the discussion.
Why not start with the definition of "Bum"?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/24/2009:  20:41:57

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Kevin,
I have to admit that the "Northerners discovered" post was actually an ironic slam back at someone saying that us hippie northerners came down and ruined the music of the area. I always forget how quickly irony is lost in text - which is bad for a writer - and perhaps the reason I'm an unsuccessful writer.

Please do come back and tell us how you view the banjo. How you were taught and what changes you would make to the teaching. You have the blue ribbons to prove that you are way better than the average player so talk to us about your training - I remember we had a discussion on this before and I would like to encourage you to tell others about it.

I teach the Did-dy - not the Bum Did-dy as the basic stroke, because it contains everything the banjo player needs - the frail and the thumb stroke. I feel strongly that Bum Did-dy is much more complicated (a complex compound stroke to be exact). I've met a lot of people who were unable to get the claw rhythm going right after anything from a few months to several years. So I stripped the banjo down to the most basic stroke I know, and solved the problem for my students.

Bum Did-dy is a rhythm not a stroke. If you can play the Did-dy, you can play Bum Did-dy, or Did-dy Bum or Bum pa did-dy or whatever.

I do know that some of the old players never went beyond bum did-dy. But they tended not to be the most talented players or at least they didn't really have time to put into the banjo. This was relaxing time music to most people back then and ther aren't too many Fred Cockerhams, Dix Freemans, Charlie Lowes, Wade Wards Glen Smiths or Kyle Creeds out there even now.

But we do now know their music and know that there is good to be had emulating them. Furthermore, as a long time teacher I know that you have to shoot for the highest level and then accept where you actually reach. I could not honestly teach a student "Bum Did-dy" as a first stroke, knowing what I know. I learned it first - from the Seeger book, but it is not the way I've ever taught banjo.

I hear a lot of what I think people object to but I don't think the problems are caused by the banjo not doing Bum Did-dy - I find that the problem with a lot of modern old time is all those extra chords and lush settings. Slowing tunes down and adding all those "I" and "Me" verses. Too many singer/songwriters have started mining old time and will abandon it after they strip away as much as they can I only hope I'll still be able to play Elzic's Farewell without drawing groans from an audience jaded by a bad song that stole the tune.

This is rambling - I'll stop now.

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/24/2009:  20:52:42

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Mutha

Short answer
I suspect that for far too many people - I am the definition of Bum.

Serious Answer
Since I firmly believe from everything I've seen in 4 decades of teaching banjo that the basic stroke is "Did-dy" and that throwing a Bum into the whole thing just makes for complications that are not helpful until a student has the actual rhythm under control, why would I define the stroke in a way I think holds beginners and intermediate players back.

Yeah, that's all just one sentence. I'll leave it up to others to sort out.

As to Bum Did-dy -- there is at least one case presented for it, in this thread. I think that those who believe in it are going to do a better job defining it than those of us who don't believe in it.

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Pluckin Mutha - Posted - 06/24/2009:  21:16:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Mutha
....... Since I firmly believe from everything I've seen in 4 decades of teaching banjo that the basic stroke is "Did-dy" and that throwing a Bum into the whole thing just makes for complications that are not helpful until a student has the actual rhythm under control, why would I define the stroke in a way I think holds beginners and intermediate players back.......

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You seem to agree that you wanted to prejudice the outcome of this post, otherwise you might have called it the "Did-dy War".

That aside, If one started with "Bum", and continued from that point, till there was a firm base, and then progressed to other rythmic devices, they would end up at the point where they could express themselves, limited only by the techniques they had been taught, or learned.

mojo_monk - Posted - 06/25/2009:  06:49:03

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Seriously?

I must represent the "shut up and go home" camp as I see this as an exercise in futility. Is it really the case that we banjo players - OT pickers at that - require some type of lexicon in order to communicate our playing techniques? Should there be some type of test required of a person person before they attend their first festival or post their first topic to the BHO? This scares me as I'm not a good "tester" and am even worse at splitting hairs. Even though I don't know the intricacies of RP style, I know it when I hear it. And just because I come from IL - where there are no regional banjo traditions - does that mean I'm a fraud? Those who might think so are the ones with the issues - not me (thankfully, I've yet to encounter such a person). I play what I think works with the tunes. Sometimes I brush - sometimes I don't. People seem to enjoy it when they hear it, and I've made some good friends because of it. For me that's enough.

This whole issue has gotten out of control as far as I'm concerned. We all use our thumbs. We all use our fingers. We all love the tunes and the music. If there are serious divisions arising among folks in this community, I figure we should handle it the old-fashioned way: pass the bottle and have a few tunes. If somebody gets the urge to swing, we'll just have to play that much louder.

The only useful definition I know:
banjo player: The party responsible for keeping the fiddler in line. (May use any technique or spirits necessary to do so).

Sean
Gwomňn, Haiti

http://www.dearoldillinois.com

Adventures in Haitian banjo building:
http://seanbarth79.webs.com

slabounty - Posted - 06/25/2009:  07:02:26

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As an experienced participant in many internet based "religious" wars (Vi/Emacs, Linux/Mac/Windows, etc.) and since I'm a learner not a teacher, I almost hesitate to jump in here, but I've had a bit of success (for some very small value of success) in learning using the Woodchuck/Levenson method (that just so my biases are stated fully and up front).

For those of you in the bum ditty camp, what does the thumb do on the "&" of the "1" beat? In other words the bump-a-ditty folks are advocating that the thumb sound on the 5th string (here we're just discussing while learning initially) on both "&" beats and then when you do move on to the bum ditty, it continue to hit the 5th string but not sound. If you were teaching a new student, what would you have them do with the thumb on that "&"? Not hit anything? Hit the 5th string and not sound?

I hope that didn't come off as confrontational as it's not meant to be, but I am curious.


Scott LaBounty
Orange, CA

Uncle Sinner - Posted - 06/25/2009:  07:23:50

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I wasn't aware of this debate at all until I started teaching. I generally start with the basic strum, a.k.a. bum dit-ty bum dit-ty bum dit-ty, but I can see why one could just do single strings. I tend to think that if I were just starting out I would want it to sound like something familiar like a strum, and that simple strum in G can be learned pretty quick--I've yet to meet someone who can't do it after an hour of patient instruction. They might forget it later, but they get it for a while and can play simple songs once they can make other chords (which may take longer, unless they play guitar or another string instrument).

Being largely self-taught, I never bother to rest my thumb on a string unless I'm going to sound it. I can sound whatever string I want with my thumb--drop-thumb, double-thumb--so why not relax it when I'm not using it?

Apparently I pass on this bad habit to my students, and when my current student got a lesson from another local banjo player, she told him he was doing it wrong and had to start over. I told him, to his great relief, that it was optional.

Then I saw, to my great relief, that some of my favourite players like Frank Lee doesn't land the thumb on each downstroke. Then I listened to Banjo Bill Cornett's insane masterpiece "Buck Creek Girls" and deduced that he hardly hits the fifth string at all and that it would be totally impossible to play that song while landing the thumb on every downstroke.

Landing the thumb isn't a bad idea per se--some players find it helps improve their accuracy and options--but to hell with anyone who says that you must do it or you'll never be a good banjo player. Oh, and of course when you get to hell I'll be right there beside you, trying to frail on a hand composed entirely of nail-less thumbs.

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Edited by - Uncle Sinner on 06/25/2009 07:24:50

Pluckin Mutha - Posted - 06/25/2009:  09:10:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by Uncle Sinner


Being largely self-taught, I never bother to rest my thumb on a string unless I'm going to sound it. I can sound whatever string I want with my thumb--drop-thumb, double-thumb--so why not relax it when I'm not using it?

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I don't even know if I rest my thumb on the 5th or any string if, I'm not going to sound it. I probably don't, but it never occurred to me it was an issue.
Also being self taught, I learned how to play the banjo, from someone who didn't know how to play the banjo.
I'm with you "Uncle", and I guess I'm a "Sinner" too.

Mutha

Alpha Omicron - Posted - 06/25/2009:  09:33:03

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Such pedantry. If you want to investigate what kind of mechanics were used by who, that's fine. But when it comes to what mechanics to use now, or to teach, I think the answer should always be 'whatever works'. Too many players of open-back banjos are way too dogmatic about what counts as "old-timey" and what counts as "clawhammer" and whatever else. I don't see how it really matters outside of historical investigation.

stringbeaner - Posted - 06/25/2009:  10:50:33

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Alpha Omicron has (or should have) put an end to this discussion, which was becoming a little hysterical.

I have been teaching and playing for 50-plus years and and I suit my teaching, to the best of my ability to the student. If what I am showing them aint working, I change my approach to something which seems to work better for THAT student. Later on, I may introduce them to a regional style if they are interested in that style, but I don't tell them it's the only way.

After playing a tune for a couple of years it's not gonna sound like it did when you first learned it anyway. (Unless you are stuck in a rut.) There are probably as many styles as there are banjo pickers.

I'll probably get hollered at but that's OK.

Stringbeaner

mojo_monk - Posted - 06/25/2009:  12:22:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alpha Omicron

Such pedantry. If you want to investigate what kind of mechanics were used by who, that's fine. But when it comes to what mechanics to use now, or to teach, I think the answer should always be 'whatever works'. Too many players of open-back banjos are way too dogmatic about what counts as "old-timey" and what counts as "clawhammer" and whatever else. I don't see how it really matters outside of historical investigation.

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Di-tto

Sean
Gwomňn, Haiti

http://www.dearoldillinois.com

Adventures in Haitian banjo building:
http://seanbarth79.webs.com

Alan Hill - Posted - 06/25/2009:  13:44:31

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Well i am a southerner (hemisphere that is) and i thankyou all for bringing your brand of banjo playing to the world nothing gives me more pleasure than learning to play an old time tune and listening to you guys !!

alan

RJFreeman - Posted - 06/25/2009:  14:20:48

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Play bum diddy or play thump-a thump-a or come up with your own rhythm. Whatever makes you happy. Learn the basics, then play it like you want to, take a little here, a little there, keep what you want until you sound like you want, not like somebody else wants you to sound.

Forget worrying about the correct way to play. The correct way to play is the way you want to, whether it's sounding like Dock Boggs, Bascom Lunsford, Dan Levenson, Pete Seeger, or your own style. Add things and take it in new directions it you wish, or keep it as tradition as you wish.

If we were all worried about the proper way to play, everyone would sound exactly like the guy who invented the banjo. What a boring world. I love variety and the many different ways the banjo is played.
Forget labels, let's just pick some banjo.

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Edited by - RJFreeman on 06/25/2009 14:24:09

Alan Hill - Posted - 06/25/2009:  14:43:36

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well put Mr Freeman

alan

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/25/2009:  15:08:12

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The interesting thing here is that everyone sees this in the light of how They learned. Which I suppose is only rational. As I've said before Clawhammer has been taught as upside down Seeger Strum for 60 years.

The purpose of learning Did-dy without no Bums is to get the thumb working with the finger, instead of just hanging around waiting for a phone call. Once the two are working together there is little need to hit the thumb with every stroke but using that stroke does create the sound most people associate with old time string band banjo.

A lot of my banjo students came from Bum Did-dy and they first heard me playing with my string band. They asked me (not knowing that I taught) if I could show them how to get THAT sound, They could hear the difference but couldn't catch it without help. I started them right back at square one an by getting the thumb into every stroke I was able to bring them into the world where the banjo drives the string band, constantly pushing on the beat and keeping the entire operation charging ahead.

You say Frank Lee doesn't hit his thumb on every stroke - neither do I. Neither do most of my students. But Lee, and I and my students CAN hit that thumb any time we wish to do so. We are not locked into playing a continuous shuffle rhythm with no chance of hitting at least one quarter of all the melody notes.

The first thing a Bum Did-dy guy learns when he starts learning fiddle tunes is that the Bum Did-dy is not going to work very well for this. So he breaks his Bum Did-dy stroke, but since he has never worked with the thumb and frailer together they STILL operate as separate pieces. It is like having two rowers who are not synchronized. The motion is not efficient.

Many people eventually overcome this problem. But by starting right with what actually is a basic stroke instead of a compound rhythm you will not have to overcome anything. Once you have Did-dy working, you are free to do anything.

Someone asked why "Bum" can't be the basic strum. The answer is pretty simple. Bum is a quarter note - Ther is no thumb involvement on the second half of the beat. It does not create a full exercise for both the thumb and finger - it should, but most beginners do not follow through with the thumb unless the thumb plays a note. by putting the two together you are practicing about 90% of everything you will ever have to do. Are you aware that many of us can use the thumb on every stroke and yet have it silent? It ain't no big deal. In fact the hard part for many people is getting the thumb to reliably Sound the string without doing a snagging motion that loses the clawhammer rhythm entirely.

I have found by watching that most of the banjo players who claim they never drop the thumb to a string before striking, actually do bring it down with the frailer. They have learned to get that thumb in there ready to "dy" in any situation - except when they plan to skip the "dy" but they only notice the latter as they play,

All of this has to do with teaching beginner and intermediate banjo:

When it comes to playing with a band or doing vocal backing, a lot of people do Bum Did-dy - making listening a real pain. With a constant Bum Did-dy song after song the audience quietly falls to sleep.

The banjo is not a back up instrument in the string band. It is okay to Bum Did-dy along in a jam, until you learn how to play the tunes, but you need more to keep an audience (and frequently that means an audience of just you) happy.

For vocalists I strongly recommend the playing of Buell Kazee - who does a pull-off based Bum Pa Did-dy the likes of which are the most driving and exciting ballad accompaniment ever heard. Kazee was a master player and an excellent singer to boot.

For string bands take a listen to Frank Lee or Ritchie Stearns who's method informed Lee's playing. For traditionalists I suggest Fred Cockerham, Kyle Creed, Wade Ward, Glen Smith and a few others. All top flight banjo players who must be called traditionalists if you can call anyone traditionalist. Personally, I'm not big on using the term traditionalist. I feel that there may be an overarching "tradition" in old time, but the days of the cut off hollers are long gone. We've all heard Fred, and Roscoe, and Dock Boggs. There are no cut off hollers left. We are all in the same tradition.

I strongly suggest to anyone who calls themselves a student of the banjo that they download Rocket Science Banjo - it really is free despite what some have said. Download it, and read it through. You don't even have to practice the exercises. Just get an idea of what it is about. The URL is below.

And I am sorry about the mispelinks. I'm working with my new portable and am hunched over it with glasses that are far too weak for a 13 inch screen


Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

---

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 06/25/2009 22:49:27

switzforge - Posted - 06/25/2009:  15:10:50

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Actually I think the discusion isn't about how one should play. But rather about the most effective teaching method. What technique is best taught first to give the new banjo player the tools needed to develope their own personal style without hitting to many stumbeling blocks. Once the basics are learned I fully agree in what ever works to get the sound you want.

Pesonally I like the 5th string only ringing after every other beat (Bum - Dit Ty), but that doesn't rule out drop thumbs hammer ons or pull offs to get the steady 8th note rythm were needed (Bum Pa Dit Ty).

Opps looks like OWC got his reply in before mine and much better explains what I think I undestood

Will play Banjo for food, will stop playing banjo for money.

John Switzer
Beulah, Colorado
www.blackbearforge.com

---

Edited by - switzforge on 06/25/2009 15:14:13

Dear Old Dad - Posted - 06/25/2009:  15:42:01

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eschew obfuscation





Pat Costello (Dear Old Dad)
http://dailyfrail.com

RJFreeman - Posted - 06/25/2009:  17:48:03

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quote:

---

Originally posted by switzforge

Actually I think the discusion isn't about how one should play. But rather about the most effective teaching method. What technique is best taught first to give the new banjo player the tools needed to develope their own personal style without hitting to many stumbeling blocks. Once the basics are learned I fully agree in what ever works to get the sound you want.

---

Yes, you are right, it is about which method works best. In my opinion, from personal experience, I don't think it matters. Either method seems good to me. I don't think learning a skill will keep you from learning or adding another skill. I learned bluegrass style first and knowing 3 finger picking in no way interfered with my ability to learn clawhammer.

I learned from Wayne Erbsen and Pat Costello's material whom both teach basic bum ditty and then start adding a little double thumb, drop thumb, hammers and pull offs. I liked the fact that I could play up to speed and play my own simple arrangements in a very short time with these methods.

I then used Dan's Clawhammer from scratch and Woodchuck's Rocket Science and Donald Zepp's videos and had little trouble learning to add drop thumb and other thump-a thump-a effects when I wanted to. It actually took me longer to learn to do a single string brush than it did to drop thumb, because I play the bum with index and stroke the dit on a full brush with my middle and ring finger,and neither took very long, just a little concentrated effort in those areas.

So I think either method works fine.

---

Edited by - RJFreeman on 06/25/2009 17:57:26

Duncan-S - Posted - 06/25/2009:  17:56:18

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quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Bum is a quarter note followed by a rest.

---

There is no rest in the Bum did-dy. It's a quarter note followed by two eighth notes.

Duncan-S - Posted - 06/25/2009:  18:21:07

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quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Bum is a quarter note followed by a rest.

---

There is no rest in the Bum did-dy. It's a quarter note followed by two eighth notes.

pernicketylad - Posted - 06/25/2009:  18:52:34

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Just playing the devil's advocate here OWC but is it possible that someone who learns by the bum-ditty rhythm hits that "pa" with more conviction because they decided to hit it on the fly.........I remember seeing an interview with Jimi Hendrix in which he said "It's what you play between the notes".....is there a danger that by keeping the rhythm so steady it becomes too mechanical?......maybe it's better for drive but not as loose.......I like loose.....by loose I don't mean sloppy.
Just trying to get my head around it as I'm struggling to see and hear the difference.....maybe the bum-pa-ditty is a good way to teach people who struggle with dropping the thumb?
As Uncle Sinner pointed out students have different needs.

There are three types of people in the world.....those who can count and those who can''t!

RJFreeman - Posted - 06/25/2009:  20:16:21

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

When it comes to playig with a band or doing vocal backing, a lot of people do Bum Did-dy - making listening a real pain. If you don't break that Bum Did-dy habit you will never be a good back-up banjo player. You need to add variety folks, You are putting your audience to sleep.

---

I don't know Woodchuck. It seemed to work great for Grandpa Jones. I enjoy his playing and it's about as simple as you can get, Mostly strum, strum, thumb 5th string. I don't think he ever put his audience to sleep.

Ed Teague is another one I enjoy. I haven't listened to him much, but from what I have heard he just seems to plays 2 finger bum ditty.

---

Edited by - RJFreeman on 06/25/2009 20:42:56

Alpha Omicron - Posted - 06/25/2009:  20:44:33

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Isn't it a little amusing that there are there seem to be distinct banjo "camps", or perhaps "denominations" (the Church of Woodchuck, the Clique of Clawdan, the Cult of Costello...)? I may just have "IT'S A BANJO, NOT A RELIGION" put on my banjo's head, a la Seeger.

Clawdan - Posted - 06/25/2009:  20:45:05

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Grandpa Jones entertainment value was a WHOLE lot more than his banjo playin. But, that's a really different subject. Lots of methods work and (hopefully) in the end each player finds their path which ultimately includes many of the techniques, styles and rhythms presented in these threads. If there is a point, it is when comparing these two methods, if one's ultimate goal is to play many types of music or particularly appalachian stringband style music, I have found that starting my students with double thumb (on the fifth string then later to dropping to inner strings) first is least confusing in the long run according to most of my students. That is all we have to go on. Further, the single most often technique players of ALL levels of experience (and years playing) come to me for is to learn double thumb which again, the most common comment from those who played "bum- diddy" style (and competently played) over the year has been "Geeze, why didn't someone show me this before" followed by "I wish I had started this way".

Funny story, then I'll leave this alone. I was attending a workshop with two (unnamed but) VERY well known and accomplished clawhammer players who were saying, "the most basic stroke to clawhammer music is bum diddy" all the while doing double thumb. I stated that I was observing and hearing wasn't bum diddy so could they please explain (I was known to these two, no trap). They of course stated that what they were DOING during this demo was really "bum pa did dy" so I asked why they said Bum Diddy if that wasn't what they were playing? BOTH said, almost in unison, "I don't know, that is what we have always been told".

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Clawcamp East is coming right up! Sign up at www.Clawcamp.com
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

RJFreeman - Posted - 06/25/2009:  20:51:38

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

Grandpa Jones entertainment value was a WHOLE lot more than his banjo playin.

---

I agree Dan, but I still really like his banjo playing. I also enjoy your playing. Different approaches, but both are good music to me.

---

Edited by - RJFreeman on 06/25/2009 20:52:49

brokenstrings - Posted - 06/25/2009:  20:54:01

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Umm, haven't we about done this subject to death?

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

Clawdan - Posted - 06/25/2009:  20:56:41

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quote:

---

Originally posted by RJFreeman

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

Grandpa Jones entertainment value was a WHOLE lot more than his banjo playin.

---

I agree Dan, but I still really like his banjo playing. I also enjoy your playing. Different approaches, but both are good music to me.

---

I do too, just saying it is in many ways contextual and these forums don't really give us the best situation in which to discuss some of the subtleties AND that many of the sociological comments have little to do with not why one is better, but why one uses each.

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Clawcamp East is coming right up! Sign up at www.Clawcamp.com
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/25/2009:  21:52:33

---

Dan
I've run into the same situation. People "think" they are doing one thing and are doing absolutely something else.

RJ
I have to say that I find Jones pretty hard to take for more than one song. But I can listen to Uncle Dave Macon all night. Jones was not an instrumentalist, and I say that anyone who thinks his playing is exactly what they want to do - go to it folks - you don't need to pay any attention to either Dan or Me or Ken Perlman or most anybody. Just get a chord book and some song books and go for it. If you can do a Bum Did-dy you have about 95% of his style. I don't guarantee you will have much of an audience, but that will depend on the quality of your jokes. I'm not being facetious. There are people who like Jones and similar players - so long as your ambitions is strictly that - don't worry about anything I say. Which reminds me...

Alpha Omicron
This is about learning the banjo. There are going to be different camps. Believe me not everyone teaches the Suzuki method for violin, not all classical guitar teachers use Aaron Shirer's methods - including Shirer after about 1972. I continued to use his old "method" because I thought his new one was bass ackward. Of course ther eare a hundred or so different "Segovia" methods none of which are quite as bad as the old man's own teaching. I remember being berated for not using a flat pick to accompany bluegrass banjo 'You gotta have that Lester Flatt constant downstrum bass/chord, bass/chord, bass/chord. I was doing Thumb/Strum with my fingers -- just like Lester Flatt actually, but the guys berating me didn't know that.

Pernicketylad
Few people do constant eighth notes when playing - I myself like to use the Wade Ward style where a group of quarter notes fills the first 3/4ths of a part and then a flurry of drop thumbs will finish it out. I also like to do M-skips, where a rest on the first eighth of a beat is followed by a thumb note on the second eighth.
A lot of what Did-dy Did-dy, Bum Pa Did dy etc is about is getting that thumb working from day one so that there will not be problems later. The actual rhythm of clawhammer is dictated by the thumb. Bum Did-dy leads to a loping rhythm, Clawhammer is more of a quickstep. It is hard to explain because the difference is too small to show in written music, but I specialized in converting people from "eh" banjo to real clawhammer.\

Duncan
Right you are. I goofed. I should have said Bum is a quarter note on the frail followed by an eighth rest where the thumb stroke would be, or simply said "It is a quarter note with no thumb involvement. The main thing is that Bum is Not 3 halves of a beat, just two.

Mojo monk
The problem is that a lot of "whatever works" teaching - doesn't work. Students end up not actually getting to the point where they can play what they want to play. With teachers you usually don't know what you are getting until you already got it.

Jessy
Why do you think this has been "done to death"? I think that if it were "dead" the posts would stop coming. There are no personal attacks here, and I did start by inviting people to participate and give us their thoughts on the matter. This strikes me as what the hangout is about - people discussing the banjo, its playing, its teaching, its history, its future. Everything that comes up here has come up before. Should the entire discussion forum be shut down for lack of new material?



Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Alan Hill - Posted - 06/25/2009:  22:20:44

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this subject is deceased it is an ex subject it has gone to meet its maker
(almost john cleese)....

alan

groucho - Posted - 06/25/2009:  22:24:06

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Yeah, as far as the "done to death" thing: being new to banjo I'm finding these debates really interesting and informative (the actual BANJO parts, that is), so I don't see any reason to try to squelch the debate. I'm sure there's others like me who are getting something out of it.

Reading some of these lengthy discussions centering around two banjo rhythms that 99% of the world would find more or less completely identical, I often find myself thinking you're all a little bit nuts, but hey - most musicians are.... that's probably why I've always liked them...:)

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/25/2009:  22:30:15

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If it is a dead parrot - why are you still reading?

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Alan Hill - Posted - 06/25/2009:  22:45:10

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i am a fan of yours Mr wodchuck also Mr zepp, Clawdan ,Bob Carlin , David Holt i Myself like to try and play the melodic clawhammer style, still early on in my learning and very much a Ken Perlman Howie Burson fan but all you people make the banjo what it is today i can dip into all your teachings and learn some very useful stuff and catch you on the good old bho so thanks Mr woodchuck i have downloaded your paperwork and very good it is too !

alan

Joe Lyon - Posted - 06/26/2009:  01:05:31

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I am confused

RSB p.11: "The popularity of Pete Seeger’s basic strum has also influenced a few gazillion players since his book came out in the late 1940s. The basic strum has a loping rhythm (Bum Did-dy – as
a matter of fact) that works great for song accompaniment".

Please help a raw beginner by:

a. Listing the qualifications to this statement in very simple terms

b. Recomending a superior rythm for song accompaniment

Joe Lyon

mojo_monk - Posted - 06/26/2009:  04:29:17

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Mojo monk
The problem is that a lot of "whatever works" teaching - doesn't work. Students end up not actually getting to the point where they can play what they want to play. With teachers you usually don't know what you are getting until you already got it.

---

The first post in this thread included nothing explicitly addressing teaching or learning the banjo. It was instead addressing the notion of semantics in this forum and the apparent North/South tensions in the OT community. Worrying about these things, I think, is a waste of time.

If you want to talk about teaching clawhammer, bum-ditty, frailing, thumping, whacking, - whatever you want to call it - that is another subject.

I don't have any "students" per se, but the sermon I've given the couple people I've gotten started on this process goes a bit like this:

In the beginning, learning to play with precision and consistency is extremely important. Practicing movements - kind of like kung fu - is more important than practicing songs. When a person gets the basics down (i.e. bum-ditty), they are free to do whatever they want depending upon their musical interests. But perfect practice still makes perfect. Practicing poorly can help you get good at playing poorly - which I don't think is what people are going after.


Sean
Gwomňn, Haiti

http://www.dearoldillinois.com

Adventures in Haitian banjo building:
http://seanbarth79.webs.com

pernicketylad - Posted - 06/26/2009:  05:32:25

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I don't think this subject is done to death at all.....I'll be listening more intently as a result.
OWC, it seems to me that the second eight note or "pa" can be more passive for the most part.The "dit" seems like the strong note to me in alot of playing.....it's even where the chuck is put in.
It's only my preference at the moment but I feel when the "pa" is sounded with emphasis throughout a whole tune it can sound a wee bit tedious....I really love the impact then when the thumb is dropped.
I can appreciate what you are saying about starting someone off on the full four notes but I hope my playing isn't suffering as a result of learning the bum-ditty first. My teacher had me dropping the thumb from the off though so I don't think it has.

There are three types of people in the world.....those who can count and those who can''t!

whitetopbanjo - Posted - 06/26/2009:  06:35:37

---

I just wanted to throw my two cents on these subjects in a less emotional/passionate fashion than in the previous thread. Sometimes it's easy to be too harsh when you feel passionate about something and I'd like to debate some of these topics in a healthy fashion.

My main advice in this thread to people learning is to remember that OldWoodchuckb and Clawdan are both teachers who get paid to teach and of course they will defend their approach, as they should.

My points in the earlier thread should have been presented as this: that I'm not in this for money, I don't teach or have anything to sell, I just want to preserve the various regional older styles.

I have researched, recorded, and collected old recordings of many banjo players from both my region and many other states. I was merely trying to point out that the revivalists methods of teaching mostly represent a style created, promoted, and sold by them post-revival. It's fine to play this way, I just hate to see it represented as an old style when it has very little basis in tradition, which is what I'M trying to promote. I'm just trying to make people aware of the fact that there were alot of older traditional styles that were played differently from what woodchuck and dan are promoting as an old style. My underlining "bigger problem" with the revival is how it has overshadowed the remaining regional styles.
There's alot of folks who aren't lucky enough to live in VA,NC, WV, or TN where the regional music is still thriving (though sadly under-promoted). So if they pick up an interest in banjo or fiddle, they are often directed either to a Mel Bay instructional book, a Rayna Gellert CD, both of which have very little basis in traditional regional old-time music. My points are an attempt to get people pointed back to where the first thing someone coming into this music from THAT perspective does is listen to a Wade Ward or G.B. Grayson CD. If it's too "deep" for them to understand, then they probably should look for another form of music to play, at least in my opinion.
This does have alot to do with banjo technique as there is alot of different ways the banjo was played in old days and they just aren't popular or taught these days. I'm arguing this points to try to point people back in the right direction in relation to my views of the current clawhammer banjo world in 2009. I do think everyone has did a pretty good job above defining what they're meaning by the different styles.

Clawdan - Posted - 06/26/2009:  06:38:26

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Lyon

I am confused

RSB p.11: "The popularity of Pete Seeger’s basic strum has also influenced a few gazillion players since his book came out in the late 1940s. The basic strum has a loping rhythm (Bum Did-dy – as
a matter of fact) that works great for song accompaniment".

Please help a raw beginner by:

a. Listing the qualifications to this statement in very simple terms

b. Recomending a superior rythm for song accompaniment

Joe Lyon

---

A: the fact that Pete Seeger influenced and continues to influence MANY of us - again as a performer not JUST an instrumentalist - really is so. That doesn't mean we want to copy his playing, just that he brought a lot of people to the banjo.

His strum IS a good one, but only ONE and even Pete varies the strums he uses which often are more finger style (especially once you add the double thumb to his up pick) than any version of clawhammer. It's like using the flat pick boom (bass) chuck (strum) on everything with never a bass run.

Put one way, I often say that Pete is a singer/songwriter who uses a banjo as his accompaniment instrument as opposed to a banjo player who sings.

B: Alternative strums? Just for one, single note finger, drop thumb to inner string, brush, thumb, single note finger, thumb to inner string, single note finger, thumb to fifth. You can take out any part of the pattern and vary this for more ideas.

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Clawcamp East is coming right up! Sign up at www.Clawcamp.com
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

Clawdan - Posted - 06/26/2009:  06:41:03

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by whitetopbanjo

I...

My main advice in this thread to people learning is to remember that OldWoodchuckb and Clawdan are both teachers who get paid to teach and of course they will defend their approach, as they should.
...

---

And yeah, we're making dozens of dollars here. OWC gives away his book free and both of us are making loads from the posts here. Hey, perhaps they are quietly paying us to post on the hangouts and all this is false information just to get you to pay us to straighten yall out. Really!

Lets see, tomorrow I'll drive about 3 hrs each way to San Diego to teach 6 students at $50 per that's $300 (if all show and pay - which is likely) and an hour for lunch is 7 hrs at the shop that will come out to $23/hr minus gas of course, oh and lunch and supper say, $75 in gas (lowest) $25 for meals, okay, $17 per hour now and I'll likely loose most of Sunday to rest up - so yeah, I do it for the money!!!

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Clawcamp East is coming right up! Sign up at www.Clawcamp.com
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

---

Edited by - Clawdan on 06/26/2009 06:49:53

whitetopbanjo - Posted - 06/26/2009:  06:51:42

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Dan,

If you'll notice, I said you should defend your approach. I just took it from visiting your website and seeing the ads for your books on the Hangout banner that you obviously did view teaching your style and playing music as somewhat of a profession, even it is just a part of how you earn your living.
I'm more interested in your feelings on why you promote your style as traditional clawhammer banjo rather than how much money you make from it. It does have a few things in common with most of the older styles but the rhythm and the constant thumbing are something that was created, as far as I can tell, 30 or 40 years ago.

Clawdan - Posted - 06/26/2009:  07:06:00

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quote:

---

Originally posted by whitetopbanjo

...
I'm more interested in your feelings on why you promote your style as traditional clawhammer banjo rather than how much money you make from it. It does have a few things in common with most of the older styles but the rhythm and the constant thumbing are something that was created, as far as I can tell, 30 or 40 years ago.

---

Apologies if I misinterpreted your point. To answer your question, I promote myself as a traditional player because I am. Since it seems I must again present my credentials to you, I grew up in Southern Appalachia, in a family where my dad called dances and my mom played guitar, piano and sang - even in the temple choir. We had singing in school as long as I can remember and though I received some formal music education - just like LOTS of folks (even Charlie Poole) I am self taught on guitar, banjo, fiddle, and mandolin. I learned from many of the folks you mention, though via recordings but did get to meet several old timers by traveling to them. (Don't sneer at records. I interviewed Charlie Acuff one year and got to know him a bit. He was QUITE proud of the recordings he learned from as well as many a story from him and others about hearing something on the ol radio).

Further, as has been said (I think by you) you can't revive something that never died, so there are no revivalists by definition (another thread please). Combine that with the factual information that by the mid 1800's (no not 19) most folks left the mountains in search of work AND TOOK THEIR MUSIC TO TOWN WITH THEM. SO it hasn't been in the private hands of cut off hill folk for a LONG time.

You seem to feel that somehow you are the only keeper of tradition when the only thing constant about tradition is change. EVERYONE who plays it changes it.

Old Time Music (whatever you believe that to be) has always been and will always be in a state of change along a continuum of who your teacher (paid, formal or not) learned from, how they changed it, how you personalize it and how you pass on your changes.

RD, OWC and many others you mention are as traditional as they come. The only thing not traditional is putting ones head in the sand and thinking the only right way - or better - the only TRUE traditional style is to copy or bow down to how anyone else played it.

We ARE the tradition. The music lives on in all of our hands. It will be here long after we are not and it will be different from how we did it.

To go back to thread, the only choice to make is how to keep it alive and pass it down to those who want to play it. For me, it is by teaching double thumb first. For me, it is by teaching double thumb first.

All I can do after that is let it go into the next generation's hands to become what it will. Some I will like, others not.

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.Clawdan.com
Clawcamp East is coming right up! Sign up at www.Clawcamp.com
Get started right with Dan''s Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch - Book and DVD (Mel Bay Publications)

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Edited by - Clawdan on 06/26/2009 07:08:18

whitetopbanjo - Posted - 06/26/2009:  07:20:28

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Dan,

I'm really not interested in your pedigree as that has little to do with my point. I never put down records, as a matter of fact, that's the way I mentioned for folks not living in an area with a still thriving tradition to learn. (see quote regarding Wade Ward and G.B. Grayson)

quote from clawdan:You seem to feel that somehow you are the only keeper of tradition when the only thing constant about tradition is change. EVERYONE who plays it changes it.

That's one reason I hesistate to try to debate, because you're quoting me in a ridiculous and WRONG fashion. Please read my first post-I just want to preserve the various regional older styles. Never said my way was the only way, there's a WHOLE bunch of older regional banjo styles I'm aware of and like, just none that sound like what you're promoting as "getting started the right way" in your signature.

This delves into a whole other topic, which is how the revival has affected regional styles (still played by "cut off hill folk" as you say, if what you mean is folks in a rural area who don't get out alot or promote themselves heavily, they do still exist).

I want to note, the regional styles aren't always played by just folks from that region, it's not about where your from, it's more about what you do with your knowledge and teaching. Some folks choose to pick a regional style (be it from a county in Kentucky or a county in West Virginia) and teach it to people, some folks choose to teach the revival style which was created 30 or 40 years ago. That doesn't make you wrong or right, but I do think your argument doesn't really answer any of my questions, it mostly just shows your consider tradition to be something much different than those of us playing certain regional styles do.