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liljoe - Posted - 05/17/2009: 17:37:26
I am finally getting back to my banjo again. If you own a small business in this world today...you work and hard...but must balance with banjo time...
So...I thought I understood what people meant by "Shapes"
I thought I did. Can anyone offer a simple explaination. I believe there are five basic shapes and most of the chords are made from them. Or am I on another planet.
Just nobody special
burlap - Posted - 05/17/2009: 18:48:21
These are you fingers.....////
These are your fingers...on D.....#(J&
Kemo Sabe - Posted - 05/17/2009: 19:09:48
quote:
Originally posted by Strangg1
There are 3 major chord shapes. F, D and the bar.
This explains it better than I can.
http://www.elfshot.com/banjo/info_chords.htm
All I know is that the D shape is killing me.
~S
Pickin'' & Grinnin''
Thank you for posting that link - It does good job of illustrating the three 'shapes'. For me - probably not common among many folks - I call the 'shapes' by another name: Grip 1 - (commonly called the F shape) - I call it Grip 1 because it is a grip and because it results in the root of the chord being on string number 1. Grip 2 - (commonly called the D shape) - I call it Grip 2 because it is a grip and it results in the root of the chord being on string number 2. Grip 3 - (commonly called the Barre chord) - I call it Grip 3 because it is a grip to me and it results in the root of the chord being on string number 3. In each Grip the other two notes (the 3 note and then the 5 note of the triad) follow the root when you proceed in a forward roll on those three strings. I think it is interesting and beneficial to know about the structure of the chord - the location of the notes of the triad - for one thing it helps in understanding about what folks call 'inversions'. For another, it takes some of the mystery out of what some folks call 'theory'. Strangg The D Shape will get easier as you practice, practice getting it done. I would also recommend practice, practice changing between the three 'shapes' - don't leave out the Barre chords - there is a learning curve to switching in and out of each chord shape including the Barre chords. Also, don't forget the chords high on the neck - you maight as well learn the neck up and down while your are practicing. The best way I have found to practice this stuff is with Band In A Box - making it a musical practice instead of dry runs with just the banjo. BIAB will pull you along - and you can slow it down to very, very slow then up the tempo as you get better with the chord changes. Also, you can change keys of the song as desired. With BIAB you can 'loop' the exercise and play it continuously for a time you choose. Personally, I like to practice this kind of stuff for only about 15 minutes then take a break!  After learning these shapes (Grips) you might want to learn 3 finger chords - what I call Modified Grips - Modified Grip 1 is a 3 finger chord modifying the F shape; Modified Grip 2 is a 3 finger chord modifying the D Shape. These 3 finger chords go all the way up and down the neck (duh!). Just like before, the Grip number points to the string with the root of the triad and a forward roll from that point goes to the 3 note and then the 5 note of the triad. This description is more complicated than it should be - playing the 3 finger chords up and down the neck and identifying the notes of the triad is very, very simple once you get the hang of it. Phil Katy, Tx "Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)
Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 05/18/2009 14:22:24
liljoe - Posted - 05/17/2009: 19:12:53
Strangg1 Thank you so very much. That site was fantastic!
Just nobody special
Brian T - Posted - 05/18/2009: 09:03:54
The D form becomes easier to "get" if you slide it down 2 frets and use that altered fingering for C....... always. I found that it took a while to get comfortable with C fingered that way but it seems to work.
We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot
minstrelmike - Posted - 05/18/2009: 11:49:05
I like that link to banjo chords.
About the only things I would add is that I teach minor chord forms two ways. The way they present is how to find minor chords, how to change G major to G minor. That's a good way to locate a minor chord when needed (cause you still need to memorize the chromatic scale in order to name chords correctly).
However, you rarely go from G major to G minor. The more commonly used minor chords are the relative minors; G and Em, C and Am.
Therefore, I usually add the chart showing how to change the D-shape to B-minor and the F shape to Dm and the barre (A:2222) to it's relative minor (F#m: 4224).
Knowing those changes actually gives you most of the [positions used in standard bluegrass banjo licks.
There are multiple dominant seventh chord shapes for each of the major chord shapes.
One of the shapes never has the root note in it (the second example in the link for instance).
F:3213 has these 3 possible F7ths: 3211 , 1213 and the 'full' F7 (which is actually a diminished chord of any note sounded): 1211
D shape: 4234 has 2 D7th shapes: the 'C7' shape: 4534 and the diminished (no D) shape: 4214
The barre, let's use C at the 5th fret, has 4 barre-7 shapes:
C7: 5558 or 8555 or 'full 7' 8558 (very difficult to fret) or the 'lowered seventh shape': 5355.
There are 9 different shapes for 7th chords.
There is only one for augmented
and there are only a few for diminished/diminished seventh: 1211, 1214, 4211, and 4214 (D7)
Understanding how the majors go to minors and to dominant seventh chords allows you to locate shapes for any other types of chords such as major-minor or 9ths or 6ths or suspended (4ths). Use the info from the 'grips' post to find the 135 notes of the chords and work from there.
I tell folks who just want to get better at chording to sit in front of the tv and switch between F and Db at the 1-3 frets. Trying to get the inside fingers switched without moving the outside fingers is trickier than you'd thyink, but once you get that simple little move, the rest of the major chord changes involve either sliding the hand or making a barre.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
BeLikeSteve - Posted - 05/18/2009: 15:59:55
I like the Elfshot.com joke section:
How many banjo players does it take to change a light bulb?
Three, one to change the bulb and two to argue over whether Earl would have changed it that way.
"Banjo players" could be changed to "BHO members" 
Edited by - BeLikeSteve on 05/18/2009 16:03:23
redtail - Posted - 05/19/2009: 16:30:57
Great Link, Thanks
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors.
We borrow the earth from our children.
Leave them only our footsteps, our love and our knowledge.
custom15player - Posted - 05/19/2009: 16:35:05
Mine is round with a long handle.
It''s great to be a Florida Gator!
If you can catch more flies with honey why do outfielders wear gloves?
Strangg1 - Posted - 05/20/2009: 07:32:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kemo Sabe
Strangg
The D Shape will get easier as you practice, practice getting it done. I would also recommend practice, practice changing between the three 'shapes' - don't leave out the Barre chords - there is a learning curve to switching in and out of each chord shape including the Barre chords. Also, don't forget the chords high on the neck - you maight as well learn the neck up and down while your are practicing. The best way I have found to practice this stuff is with Band In A Box - making it a musical practice instead of dry runs with just the banjo. BIAB will pull you along - and you can slow it down to very, very slow then up the tempo as you get better with the chord changes. Also, you can change keys of the song as desired. With BIAB you can 'loop' the exercise and play it continuously for a time you choose. Personally, I like to practice this kind of stuff for only about 15 minutes then take a break!
Oh i've been practicing, for a couple months now, but my changes between chords are still rough when going to the D shape, not sure why I am having such a problem with it, but it's getting better as time goes on. I usually do some chord changing exercises eevery night. I usually start going from G to C to D in the F shape, then do the same in the D shape, then the same in the bar shape. Then I practice changing between the shapes at the same place on the neck, using each shape. For example at the 5th fret I start with F shape G chord, then go to C shape bar and then D shape for D chord. I then move down to D shape for G, F shape for C, bar shape for D at the 9th 10th and 7th frets respectively. I then move to the 12th and so on until i'm at the very top of the neck fumbling around 21st and 22nd fret. I then do it all over again except I do "chops". I'm trying really hard to get control over these shapes and their positions on the fret board. I'd really like to have them down, for backup purposes, before moving on. Although I'll probably not worry overmuch about the shapes/chords at the very top of the neck (20-22 frets), as my hands make things difficult when I get that high on the neck. I have big palms but stubby fingers which isn't excatly ideal as it's hard to crunch everything up. Probably a good thing I didn't take up the mandolin! ~S Pickin'' & Grinnin''
Kemo Sabe - Posted - 05/20/2009: 08:06:14
Strangg1
I think you are right on track - I know a lot of folks say it takes 'a few weeks' or whatever... but, I think it takes WAY more that a few weeks to get the chord shapes and chord changes working smoothly. Again I will mention that the best way I have found is to make it musical..... I like to go with different tempos from different music sources....the BHO has a Jukebox with BHO members doing some very fine banjo stuff. I download many of those songs to my Windows Media Player and I can then change the tempo to slower or faster.....
For me - when going up high on the neck I switch to 3 finger chords.... I do pretty good with the four finger (F shape) G chord at 17th 18 -19 ...excuse me I meant 15 - 16 - 17....but with anything above that G chord I use 3 finger chords. This may not be well received by teachers amongst us....... i would appreciate comment on this matter of 3 finger chords high on the neck.
"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)
Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 05/20/2009 08:33:20
minstrelmike - Posted - 05/20/2009: 08:07:19
One rule of thumb for playing chords up-the-neck is to use 4-finger chords up to the 12-14th frets, 3 fingers between the 7th and 17th, and 2-finger ones when you're totally out of room.
If you can understand or see that this particular lick at the 9th or 17th frets is really just a short chord, many other aspects of picking fall into place.
The other advantage of using short chords is you end up with an extra finger or two for fretting other notes (making licks). There are two different ways to finger a 3-finger F-shape (x213) and each leaves a different finger in a different place able to reach different notes. And if you're high up the neck, a finger that used to only be able to stretch one or two frets can often stretch 4.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
GHohwald - Posted - 05/20/2009: 08:21:42
There are 3 shapes for major chords. Switching between the 2 most common is covered in this free lesson
http://www.freeguitarvideos.com/banjo/B_R3.html
In addition there is a minor shape that goes along with each major chord shape and a 7th shape shape as well/ In each case you change 1 note of the major chord shape.
If you were playing Foggy Mountain Breakdown for example you would need to know how to make an Em chord.
quote:
Originally posted by liljoe
I am finally getting back to my banjo again. If you own a small business in this world today...you work and hard...but must balance with banjo time...
So...I thought I understood what people meant by "Shapes"
I thought I did. Can anyone offer a simple explaination. I believe there are five basic shapes and most of the chords are made from them. Or am I on another planet.
Just nobody special
Geoff Hohwald http://www.freebanjovideos.comhttp://www.5dollarbanjolessons.com
minstrelmike - Posted - 05/20/2009: 10:31:45
There are 9 possible 7th shapes, some if which don't include all 4 notes of the 7th chord.
C7 ( from the C barred at 5th fret) can be: 5558 or 8555 (all the notes you need) or 8558 or 5355--a very common 7th shape.
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
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