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KI4PRK - Posted - 03/19/2009: 20:43:51
I recently got hooked onto Western Swing, and I've been fooling around with the tunes. The hardest part is the rhythm, I can't describe it but it's rather different from Bluegrass. I've been using a lot of Don Reno stuff, little single string filler runs and a whole lotta thumb brushing double stops. Sometimes I like to pick way up close to the neck and really dig the strings, it makes the banjo sound a bit like a steel guitar.
I've been working up Take Me Back to Tulsa, Steel Guitar Rag, Beaumont Rag (in F), and Osage Stomp.
Has anyone tried playing Western Swing (not just WS tunes bluegrass-style) on the Five string? I know this being a common ground for four stringers, there are going to be some tenor banjo players who've played Western Swing, but I play five string. Although any good advice is welcome!
73, Brennen
1four5 - Posted - 03/19/2009: 20:57:40
I have no advice, since I use 4 picks and have been developing my western swing style as I go. We play a lot of it. You've just got to try and imagine what you'ed like to hear the banjo do if you were listening to the song, and then work on finding it. Listen to it a lot. I'm blessed with a fantastic lead guitar player in our group who is really into western swing, so I can draw off his rhythms and strum patterns.
Dean
dhergert - Posted - 03/20/2009: 00:33:42
Brennen, to me it's mostly getting the feel of the rhythm in the hips and in the right hand... And learning some new chords for the left hand. The fingers tend to follow that rhythm. As you've mentioned, a lot of single string stuff works nicely.
I've also developed a lazy index and middle finger up-pick strum that I'll throw in for variety every once in a while (I also use this frequently for old-style jazz).
There's actually a lot of interestingly similar stuff between Western (or Texas) Swing and Gypsy Jazz, although Gypsy is more intense, for me anyway.
3-fingerstyle for swing and jazz does work very nicely, but it's mostly blazing new ground. Lots of fun.
A word of caution, though, once you press outside of the bluegrass box, you may never be satisfied with 1-4-5 songs again. 
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/20/2009: 03:22:53
quote:
Originally posted by KI4PRK
I recently got hooked onto Western Swing, and I've been fooling around with the tunes. The hardest part is the rhythm, I can't describe it but it's rather different from Bluegrass.
For backup, I would use the rolls which do NOT syncopate the beats like TIM TIM TI. To stress the front beat and to avoid the syncopation I may suggest something like this to fill eight notes in the measure: (TM) I T I (TM) I T I where is the pinch of T and M on the first and third beat. (TM) (IM) T I (TM) (IM) T I where is doubling Middle finger and therefore two successive pinches, played with the bounce. Similar patterns are shown at http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...&whichpage=2but in that forum they are shifted in order to stress the back beat - T I (TM) I or T I (TM) (IM). Of course you may switch every other Thumb to the fifth string if you want to use it. Mirek ------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatekhttp://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo
Edited by - Mirek Patek on 03/20/2009 03:25:39
1four5 - Posted - 03/20/2009: 09:05:31
quote:
A word of caution, though, once you press outside of the bluegrass box, you may never be satisfied with 1-4-5 songs again.
Wooohooo!!!  That took a lot of courage to say on a banjo website! But... I couldn't have said it better myself!!! Dean
dhergert - Posted - 03/20/2009: 11:39:37
Actually, when you think about it, it's historically the big name 5-string banjo players in the big bluegrass bands who always got into trouble for pressing outside of the bluegrass box. Look at Don Reno, who loved to dabble in jazz and blues, and Earl Scruggs, who swung full-circle into rock in the 70s, and still loves to press into rockabilly with his family band and others that he performs with... And the list goes on. Banjo players are typically very independent thinkers.
And I'd submit that it's not only ok, but it's really quite wonderful that these and other bluegrass 5-string banjo icons have passed this lineage on to us. It's only natural, the 5-string banjo sounds excellent in many genre.
Trying to hold the 5-string banjo to only bluegrass is just as ludicrous as trying to hold violin to only classical.
Now, ask me how I really feel .
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Edited by - dhergert on 03/20/2009 11:40:51
NYCJazz - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:09:18
Take off that 5th string for a while and flatpick that sucker!
You might like what you hear!
BTW Check out the version of Steel Guitar Rag by my pal Roy Smeck back in 1937. You can find a sample of it on iTunes. You gotta hear the whole thing, though, to get all the amazing sounds he got out of a simple Gibson electric lap steel.
"Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone."
- Pablo Picasso
Edited by - NYCJazz on 03/20/2009 12:20:06
KI4PRK - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:14:16
quote:
Originally posted by 1four5
quote:
A word of caution, though, once you press outside of the bluegrass box, you may never be satisfied with 1-4-5 songs again.
Wooohooo!!! That took a lot of courage to say on a banjo website! But... I couldn't have said it better myself!!!
Dean
The only time I play 1-4-5 tunes is when I have to, because if you wanna jam ya gotta play what the others want. I like playing tunes like Oh! You Beautiful Doll and Little Rock Getaway, and never miss the chance to slip into a nice juicy diminished chord (am I the only one that actually plays the Bdim after the Bb chord in Beaumont Rag?  ). I've also been into playing in lots of keys without a capo, F and Bb are my favorites with E following up close. Mirek, that's really what I'm looking for. I've been coming to realise that the syncopated backup just doesn't work, probably because whoever's playing lead is so syncopated. Thanks! Someone should start a jam where playing in G is illegal (without a capo, you can play in G if you capo up 1 ;) and you have to put at least 5 chords in a tune LOL JK 73, Brennen
KI4PRK - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:16:27
quote:
Originally posted by NYCJazz
Take off that 5th string for a while and flatpick that sucker!
You might like what you hear!
"Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone."
- Pablo Picasso
Been There, Done That, Loved That I really should play plectrum banjo more... 73, Brennen
NYCJazz - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:23:37
I know a bass playing friend who's really into Western Swing and this is one of his fav songs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t3gRWObP-Y
"Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone."
- Pablo Picasso
dhergert - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:40:30
quote:
Originally posted by KI4PRK
...(am I the only one that actually plays the Bdim after the Bb chord in Beaumont Rag? ).
Hmmm, nope, but don't tell anyone. quote:
Originally posted by KI4PRK
...
Someone should start a jam where playing in G is illegal (without a capo, you can play in G if you capo up 1 ;) and you have to put at least 5 chords in a tune LOL JK
Someone did. It's called jazz. You play with very big horns in Eb, Fm, Bb and Cm. You use 9th and diminished chords. Absolutely no capos allowed. Love it!!! Best, -- Don http://home.att.net/~dhergerthttp://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so: only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards." -- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
NYCJazz - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:46:42
quote:
Someone did. It's called jazz. You play with very big horns in Eb, Fm, Bb and Cm. You use 9th and diminished chords. Absolutely no capos allowed. Love it!!!
Best,
-- Don
Don't forget the augmented chords! And I just learned the seventh flat fifth forms last night. This is all in music from the 20's & 30's! "Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone." - Pablo Picasso
KI4PRK - Posted - 03/20/2009: 12:47:06
Cm... Now THAT's a good banjo key. Sounds great and not much harder than playing in F or E. I'd love to play some more jazz, but I'm not very good at improvising [:/] Keep on practicing!
73, Brennen
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/20/2009: 14:29:26
It's jazz .... simple stylistic jazz, but still very very challenging. Much like Bebop
I play single string TITM for the most part ... so I can keep the swing consistent and feeling good. Also so keys aren't a problem ... and ... I link things/ideas with open strings and 5th string fretted notes
I've been playing western swing for close to 30 years, and I just don't know how I could do it without a comprehensive theory background ... sometimes I get lucky and come up with something by accident, but most of my decent ideas come from my understanding of theory.
The Pearce Family Bluegrass Band
www.pearcemusic.com
Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/22/2009: 01:13:01
quote:
Originally posted by KI4PRK
Mirek, that's really what I'm looking for. I've been coming to realise that the syncopated backup just doesn't work, probably because whoever's playing lead is so syncopated. Thanks!
By mixing the four-note-long brick T I(TM)(IM) and two-note-short brick T(IM) you can switch between accenting back beats and front beats:
long brick short brick
Middle finger on d--------x-x--------x--------
Index finger on b------x---x--------x--------
Thumb on D/G--X---X--------X----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
d--------x-x-----x-x|--x-----x-x----|x-x-----x-x----|x-x---x-----x-x|
b------x---x---x---x|--x---x---x---x|--x---x---x---x|--x---x---x---x|
D/G--X---X---X---X--|X---X---X---X--|X---X---X---X--|X---X---X---X--|I would play always two notes per thumb string (notes G G D D, D D A A etc. and not G D G D, D A D A etc.) in order to match the speed of root-five exchange by doublebass or guitar (which is G - D - , D - A - ). Mirek (Sorry for double posting from neighbour tenor banjo related topic http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...&whichpage=2 . Here are names of strings related to 5-string G tuning.) ------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatekhttp://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo
Edited by - Mirek Patek on 03/22/2009 01:24:41
pdbanjo - Posted - 03/22/2009: 07:53:45
Western Swing IMO is more left hand based than right hand. I've played western swing, big band swing and simple jazz tunes on the 5 string with my band for over 30 yrs. now. Bob Wills, Benny Goodman, Dorsey Bros., Fats Waller, Ellington are a few of the composers we dabble in. There is a flow in swing music that is unlike BG which has a more stuccato structure to it. It seems to me that swing music is also played more towards the middle of the beat than than toward the front of the beat as you do in BG. Definately, it is more chord heavy, too. Sometimes I'll stick in a normal swing style major-dim-minor- major turnaround into a BG tune to the dissatisfaction of traditionalist BGers at jams. I do that because I think it fits the BG song and adds color to an otherwise basic 1.4. 5 tune. Some find it interesting others berate me a bit. I guess I am a firm believer in Dons statment in previous post: "A word of caution, though, once you press outside of the bluegrass box, you may never be satisfied with 1-4-5 songs again." Swing it, other wise it don't mean a thing!!!
PD
There''s so little time and so much room to experiment, why choose to play like someone else? If I were Earl, I wouldn''t play it like me either.
Edited by - pdbanjo on 03/22/2009 07:55:08
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/22/2009: 11:11:49
I strum a lot. With fingerpicks on, I pinch my Thumb to the Ring and Little fingers, rotate my elbow out a little to move the thumbpick and I can strum up and down with my fingernails. That let;'s me brush the 6th and 9th chords with a soft lilt and gives me the rhythm I want to follow later with my fingerpicks.
I pick in the middle of the head to get a bell-like tone. With my setup, you cannot hear any difference between a chime at the 12th fret and a fretted note if I pluck correctly. (steel-gtr sound)
My favorite chords are these movable shapes: G6: 5432 or for a 6th bass: 2435
D9: 2232
(My special 5-chord diminished or seventh shape) F7, F#dim,D#dim, Adim, Cdim: 1211
Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html
brokenstrings - Posted - 04/18/2009: 22:01:56
Banjoman plays Western Swing. Let's hope he contributes to the discussion.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
Tom Hanway - Posted - 04/21/2009: 00:30:30
Do like Pearse does and learn your theory, especially applied theory in terms of the chord changes and substitutions. It won't hurt a bit to learn how to back swing tunes on guitar, then transfer that chord knowledge (and substitutions) over to banjo. Reno chords, especially, come in handy. Listen to steel players and notice how they compare with a lot of moveable Reno chords. It becomes obvious very quickly.
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please see my homepage and digital stores.
''Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy.'' - W. B. Yeats
John Herrington - Posted - 05/08/2009: 15:00:27
"You've just got to try and imagine what you'ed like to hear the banjo do if you were listening to the song, and then work on finding it. Listen to it a lot."
Not bad advice, for any of us, Dean. I won't forget that affirmation!
Old John, on the Big Horn River
gottasmilealot - Posted - 05/08/2009: 18:00:17
Looks like fun, but I haven't a clue where to go to play with others for that type of music.
Are there any lists around of western music jams?
Keith
gottasmilealot - Posted - 05/08/2009: 18:00:29
Looks like fun, but I haven't a clue where to go to play with others for that type of music.
Are there any lists around of western music jams?
Keith
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