divingsailingdoug - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:03:21

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I have a delema that I'm hoping somebody out there can help me with.
I started playing the Banjo 40 years ago. then after a 38 year hyatus I started playing again 2 yrs ago. Back then the only popular instructional book out there was Pete Seeger and so I had the "bum diddy" engrained in my brain. I'm having a VERY HARD TIME with the drop thumb. My question is, can I develop as a "clawer" without the drop thumb. Is "frailing" a legitimate style of playing on it's own with out the drop thumb? My playing is progressing nicely but when I go to jams I feel like a raw beginner because I haven't mastered the drop thumb, hell what am I saying I haven't even begun the drop thumb! HELP
Doug

Too soon old and too late smart

carlb - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:14:56

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I known a few to play without a drop thumb. If you try to learn drop thumb, you'll have to be very patient as it will feel really awkward at first. Try to master one tune with a drop thumb. You can use that tune to get used to it. It might take a while but after you get relaxed, you'll find it will be easier with other tunes.

Carl

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:19:30

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Sure. You and many others get along jes'fine without drop thumb.

But have you given up too quickly?

Take a look at the second video in my Rocket Science Banjo youtube lessons "Drop Thumb" and download the book - sorry I guess I should have a chapter by chapter breakdown, but Drop Thumb is in Chapter Three of the book.

What you really need to do is take some "pure" drop thumb time. Lets say 10 minutes a day.
On a Monday - practice with the frailer hitting the first string and the thumb hitting the second.
On Tuesday - frailer 2nd string Thumb 3rd
Wednesday - frailer 1st string Thumb 3rd
Thursday - frailer 1st string Thumb 4th
Friday - frailer 2nd srting Thumb 4th
Sat - failer 3rd string Thumb 4th

etc etc etc

Don't worry about getting it fast - Get it working RIGHT. Keep at it. Don't give up. If it just doesn't seem to work out in a few weeks, maybe quit trying. But the fact is - so long as you can practice, you can learn.

Rocket Science Banjo is available at the website below

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

Paul Roberts - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:26:26

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"Is 'frailing' a legitimate style of playing on it's own with out the drop thumb?"

Of course it is.

The important thing is to enjoy playing the banjo, if that's your calling. If you enjoy playing, you'll stick with it; if you stick with it, you'll get better. Drop-thumbing will come naturally when you're ready for it - if you want to do it and if it becomes a way to have more fun. You don't need to push yourself to fit into someone else's predefined image. You're doing this for yourself. Just enjoy it.

Cheers
PauL

http://banjocrazy.com/ Paul is a Cello Banjo Specialist and Gold Tone Retailer.
http://banjocrazy.com/articles.shtml Paul''s Articles and Interviews with Interesting Banjo Players.
http://speaktopaul.com/ Paul''s Phone Counseling Service.
http://elationarts.org/index.html Elation Center for the Arts in Southwest Colorado

JohnTheWhite - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:34:08

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Doug,
I would suggest that you take a look at two finger styles. Check out the samples on the BHO home page of Chip Arnold.

If you are going to have success with drop thumb clawhammer style you need to move your hand more on top of the strings. We, who learned from Seeger's book long ago, tend to move the thumb along side the 5th string, even resting the fleshy part of the thumb palm on the head. You can never drop the thumb from that position, however it is classic form for the frailing style. The strangeness of beginning clawhammer is the lack of anything to control your right hand position. Two finger style plants two or three fingers on the head so that the thumb position can be well controlled. The hand floating above the strings with no way to control your position is the difficult part of clawhammer.

===
This is bluegrass type advice; you can do what you want to with it.
The advice is, "Don''t let your deal go down."

Bisbonian - Posted - 01/31/2009:  22:35:40

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I'm in much the same position, figuratively, and literally. JohnTheWhite, you hit on the position exactly. The fleshy part of my thumb-palm rests on the head, and I hit the fifth string from the side. I also started with Seeger's book, though a bit more recently. I'm getting to be a decent frailer, but I would like to do some drop thumb...and I just can't seem to do it. But thank you; your description of my position finally rings home, and tells me that I'm going to have to work on changing it.

"When Banjos are Outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos."

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Edited by - Bisbonian on 01/31/2009 22:36:51

janolov - Posted - 02/01/2009:  00:01:37

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Frailing is a legitimate style. For example Grandpa Jones and Doc Watson never use drop thumb. I think Pete Seeger also tried avoid drop thumb. However, the music will be more exciting if you learn drop thumb.

Jan-Olov

cockneybanjo - Posted - 02/01/2009:  00:23:08

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Intend to play with the ring and little fingers lightly resting on the head. This is probably because I started playing from a DVD but really couldn't get into bluegrass - there were too many other tunes I already knew and wanted to play first - and it's too awkward having the hand floating free and picking. There ARE people who play like this, but it's a handicap you don't need.

I have made occasional attempts to learn clawhammer but never really persevered, but I return to it occasionally and I expect I will get the hang of it in the end.

but, I've never really learned drop thumb

rteale - Posted - 02/01/2009:  04:38:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by divingsailingdoug

I have a delema that I'm hoping somebody out there can help me with.
I started playing the Banjo 40 years ago. then after a 38 year hyatus I started playing again 2 yrs ago. Back then the only popular instructional book out there was Pete Seeger and so I had the "bum diddy" engrained in my brain. I'm having a VERY HARD TIME with the drop thumb.

---

You will find the clawhammer's consensus is that drop-thumb is a tricky move and it dont come easy to anybody. I still find certain drop-thumb licks awkward. You can play many tunes without it that will still impress family and friends, but your playing will be more interesting with it, I'd say, so set your expectations of progress pretty low and keep at it as a long-term goal.

Ray

janolov - Posted - 02/01/2009:  05:43:13

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Doug, There are at least two well-reputed teachers/players here that advocate that you shall not begin with bum-dit-ty (frailing) and that the real basic stroke is down-thumb-down-thumb. Dan Levenson has his Clawhammer From Scratch (to buy for some $$ but there is good video material) and Oldwoodchuck has his Rocket Science Banjo which is free to download (also some Youtube videos). If you are afraid of drop-thumb I recommend you to restart from scratch with one or two of these sources. You have to go back to the newbie stage but after 3 - 6 months you will come out ten times more skilled than if you've continued to play frailing.

Jan-Olov

tfaux - Posted - 02/01/2009:  06:14:46

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If you can play comfortably with your thumb on the drone, with some practice you should be able to move it down to the second string, or the third. Just do as Woodchuck suggests and make your fingers do it every day.

If you like working from tab, Mike Iverson has some transcribed drop-thumb exercises here:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20pdf%2...Thumbing.pdf

chip arnold - Posted - 02/01/2009:  07:00:55

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Of course you can play without dropthumb. But you wouldn't be trying so hard if you didn't want to add it to your tool kit. Dropthumb will open a whole range of new possibilities for you.

What janolov says above is right. Go have a look at woodchuck's videos and be willing to go back to square one. Correct hand position and correct understanding of how to execute the right hand movement are the key. Drop thumb is NOT a difficult technique if done correctly. It does NOT have to be considered an advanced technique. Forty years ago there was very little in the way of video material available. Now there's tons of the stuff. Get Dan's Clawhammer From Scratch set and have at it.
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=10893
http://www.oldtimemusic.us/index.html








**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

divingsailingdoug - Posted - 02/01/2009:  07:35:08

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Thank you all for your help! It's done 2 things 1. I'm going to try to change the positioning of my hand as I DO hit the 5th string from the side and I think it's the main reason that drop thumbing seems so awkward and 2. I'm going to devote some "serious practice" time to the tecnique. Oh I guess 3 things this thread has done the third being possibly the most important. I won't feel like an bumbling dummy if I choose to continue my frailing without dropthumbing. Though I am going to try to master it. Thanks
Doug

Too soon old and too late smart

ZEPP - Posted - 02/01/2009:  07:40:54

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You might find helpful the videos I have made, which were shot through a clear banjo head, showing how my thumb does this important job :

http://zeppmusic.com/Clearhead/2thumb.htm

Good luck with it!

Cheers,
ZEPP

chip arnold - Posted - 02/01/2009:  07:43:59

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Yup, I forgot to mention Zepp's "Clearhead Videos" which are excellent. Do it! :-)

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

prossignol - Posted - 02/01/2009:  08:40:41

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Definitely check out Zepp and Oldwoodchucks videos. Even the most basic move excercise from RSB radically improved by drop thumbing. My main advice is not to get too freaked out. Its not magic, and its really not that hard to do if you remember that 1) Clawhammer is a strumming style, dont let your fingers get to fidgety. You had holds a relatively relaxed, closed position, and your arm (and a little bit of your wrist) provide the bulk of the motion. 2) that the "drop thumb" technique is exactly the same as thumbing the 5th string. The only difference from the basic frail that ends with the thumb on the 5th string is the space between your thumb and frailing finger (I or M). The motion, the feeling of landing on and rebounding off of the 1st-4th strings is the same as the 5th. Start with the 1st or the 3rd string for practice. The 4th is a bit trickier (for some reason), but you can get it. 3) Its a lot simpler than some of the descriptions lead you to believe. Check out some tabs of tunes that use the drop, they dont always use it in every bar, and its really just a different way to play a note in the tune. Dont worry about it too much. Practice, have fun, play around with it, and it just starts to "happen".

"....I wish I had that pan full of squirell head gravy..."

John Herrington - Posted - 02/01/2009:  14:28:33

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Thanks men for the good instruction to help us with these additional licks.

Old John, on the Big Horn River

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/01/2009:  16:29:04

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Resting the fleshy part of your thumb on the head is extremely bad for your hand muscles. I know fingerpicking guitarists who have used that technique to much to "deaden" the low strings and have had the hand go into spasms. There can be serious, and possibly permanent consequences.

The actual contact point and pivot for the right hand should be the fleshy part of your forearm in contact with the banjo head a few inches below your elbow. Poor explanation but see any illustration in books like Ken Perlman's, Dan's etc. This arm position not only holds the instrument in place but also allows you to swing the entire forearm from the elbow and use gravity to make the frail.

I know there will be wrist people to disagree on that "elbow bit" but let them make their own case. I know they will agree with me about the forearm holding the banjo, and they will agree that the forearm should be the only "rest' in clawing ---- OR any similar strum style (Like the Seeger Strum). Once you put part of your hand on the head you are actually making good frailing/clawing/etc impossible - whether you do the Melodic, from the wrist arcl or the Southern, from the elbow swing --- or any combination, or variation thereof and therefore, being as the heretofore party known as the party of ...of....

Sorry I've been spending too much time on the "Beast From BMI" threads.

Everybody knows there's-a no such-a thing as a Sanity Clause.

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

cooper_543 - Posted - 02/02/2009:  07:32:26

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I just started figuring out the drop-thumb myself with Mr. Levenson's book. It took me a few weeks with lots of practice to start getting it, but it was a blast once I became comfortable. My problem is that I recently got over a 9 month bout with elbow tendonitus, and it started acting up again when I was doing lots of double thumbing. My hammer ons and pulloffs and slides are acceptable for how long I've been playing and what I want to do with music (entartain myself and my family), so I can still use them to make the bum-ditty more interesting, but I admit I feel like I've had to close myself off to an exciting part of clawhammer banjo. Is there anyone else in here who has had this problem?

Sorry if I railroaded this thread. I'd be happy to move my post if there's a more appropriate location.

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Edited by - cooper_543 on 02/02/2009 07:33:47

ZEPP - Posted - 02/02/2009:  08:12:37

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Oh, one more thing: A couple of years ago, I made the following video to answer a question about the uses of the right thumb. I thought it might be helpful in persuading someone that it is, indeed, well worth the effort to learn the technique :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWwxWVIbhNY

Cheers,
ZEPP

WIz47 - Posted - 02/02/2009:  08:13:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Roberts

"Is 'frailing' a legitimate style of playing on it's own with out the drop thumb?"

Of course it is.

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You know, I read the original quote and almost shouted out loud at the screen. I guess "Drop thumb" is a MANDATORY part of OT banjo.

Or not.

Thanks for reminding some on this board that it is NOT a necessity, nor will it diminish your playing one iota if you never use a drop thumb.


_______________________________

"F" The bloody agonizing chord of death.

chip arnold - Posted - 02/02/2009:  08:46:25

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Don't know if anyone has used the word "diminish".

If you learn to drop thumb, you'll have a lot of new options available to you. And learning to drop thumb will definately not diminish your ability to play without it whenever you want.



**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

WIz47 - Posted - 02/02/2009:  11:33:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by chip arnold

Don't know if anyone has used the word "diminish".

If you learn to drop thumb, you'll have a lot of new options available to you. And learning to drop thumb will definately not diminish your ability to play without it whenever you want.

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

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As will using a complete strum for every measure, whether you decide to use it or not. For every "style" there are advantages, and as I view it, no disadvantages. But it seems to me that the consensus on this board (for some reason) is that having a drop thumb is a must and if you don't use one you are a lesser player for some reason. I respectfully disagree.

And please understand that this is not directed toward you, because I've found that you are one of the few here that seem to realize there are many ways to play a banjo, and all of them are legitimate, and acceptable.



_______________________________

"F" The bloody agonizing chord of death.

chip arnold - Posted - 02/02/2009:  12:08:21

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WIz47, You're right :-) My first post on the thread began with "Of course you can play without dropthumb". There's no reason to use drop thumb or any other technique unless you want to. But for the same reasons that you don't like the "you must do it this way" voices, I hate to hear learners told that drop thumb is a difficult or in some way advanced technique. It's really not at all. The original poster seemed to me to be one who wants to learn DT so I didn't want the "it's too hard" posters to get him discouraged. I know you didn't discourage him and in fact ENcouraged folks to feel free to do what they want. That's something I'm all for! FWIW, DOUBLE thumbing is something I've only just begun to explore after all these years. Most everyone else does it without even thinking about it!

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/02/2009:  14:49:34

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Wiz
There is nothing wrong with not dropping thumb - but since it is relatively easy to learn and opens up many more possibilities both melodically and rhythmically there is little reason NOT to learn it other than lack of desire.

The original poster talks about feeling like a raw beginner because he can't DT -- that indicated to me a desire to learn it.

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

WIz47 - Posted - 02/02/2009:  15:19:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Wiz
There is nothing wrong with not dropping thumb - but since it is relatively easy to learn and opens up many more possibilities both melodically and rhythmically there is little reason NOT to learn it other than lack of desire.

The original poster talks about feeling like a raw beginner because he can't DT -- that indicated to me a desire to learn it.

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

---

I agree with what you're saying and I think it's just a matter of preference. Personally, I prefer the full chord sound of pure frailing (with hammer ons, slides, and pull offs for some spice) as opposed to the more single note and cluck of CH. But with that said, I really enjoy listening to both unique styles.

As Chip said in another thread, It's always good to have as many tools as you can. Whether you decide to use them is a matter of personal preference.


_______________________________

"F" The bloody agonizing chord of death.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/02/2009:  17:06:40

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Nothing's necessary. I was going to say originally to your question that if you're singing songs, don't worry at all about dropping your thumb (or any other part of your anatomy), but as the last few posts reminded me, dropping the thumb is actually easier than STOPping the thumb.
Physically, it's easier to keep doing the same thing, brush-thumb brush-thumb instead of brush-pause brush-thumb, but depending on your point of view, i.e. how you learned it, you may think one is harder than the other.

They are both equally hard.
Here is a different question far more important: How do you want to sound?
That's up to you, not anybody else.

I found practicing with hammers and pulls made simple drop thumbs far easier because they fit better into the tune than any sort of pause.: http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/spe...frail03.html

It sounds like you'll be working on drop-thumb some more. Good. another thing to work at is straight-forward melody, especially on a singing song. You might surprise yourself with the sound and not ever miss the dropped thumb.


Mike Moxcey
Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net

Dock Jekel - Posted - 02/02/2009:  17:40:18

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Playing banjo reminds me of making beer. Once upon a time I was mystified by the art of brewing beer- "whole grain process is very hard and complicated"- better to master making batches of kit beer first. For some reason I didn't buy it (those kits) and started straight into the whole grain process. Turns out, it was easy. Clawhammer is easy too! Nothing about it needs to be mystified. Just make a good claw with your hand- like a hawk's talon. I think the rest will come easy.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/02/2009:  23:45:38

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I did the stroke, pause, brush, thumb stuff when I used Pete Seeger's book in the 1950s. That was the Seeger Strum. I never thought about drop thumb so maybe I was doing it. Recently when I re-read the Seeger book I noticed that drop thumb was introduced pretty early compared to other books around now. I got into flamenco guitar and sold my banjo to get a cheap flamenco. I went through the entire "Folk Scare Era" without doing more on a banjo than I neeed to check out the repairs I was doing

Years later my brother-in-law showed me how to clawhammer. He used stroke, thumb, stroke, thumb. He was into rags and needed the full 8 notes per measure most of the time.

Old Man Story
We basically started playing together after he asked me to transcribe the piano score of a Joplin Rag - I've forgotten which one but it was not the theme from that Newman, Redford movie - I never heard that one until I saw the movie.

At any rate I managed to create a rather finger busting guitar arrangement from the piano version. I could slowly and painfully play it on my classical guitar without sacrificing the complexities to the point where the arrangement was pointless. I still had a bass at the time and was going to offer to play it with him, since I figured an an untrained guitarist couldn't possibly handle the complete arrangement..

He sight read the tablature at more or less the correct tempo, complete with the full bass line. Like Dave Van Ronk, he had huge hands (although his fingers were more long than wide) and he could easily play two strings with his left thumb. I put my bass part away without mentioning it.

After he amazed me with what a untrained guitarist could do, I then amazed him by learning not only clawing but a Wade Ward tune in minutes. He loaned me a banjo that night - within a month I had three of them and until he moved away we played together a couple evenings a week. Sometimes with friends. I started repairing instruments again and yadda yadda yadda. Old men have trouble sleeping - even with pills.

Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material

dhavlena - Posted - 04/16/2009:  00:26:30

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Interesting thread! As I see it, the two main "uses" of drop-thumb are:
A) To achieve certain notes that might not be readily available to straight frailing. However, most of these same
notes can also be played by sliding, hammering-on and pulling-off while frailing.
B) To occasionally add nice short rhythmic elements to the tune here and there.
While I love, and use drop-thumb a great deal, I must confess to being partial to the sliding, hammer-on/pull-off/full
chord sound of regular frailing.
On a related subject, for years I had a lot of trouble with the corner of my thumbnail catching obnoxiously often
on the metal strings it was attempting to double-thumb. When I switched over from metal strings to nylon, an unexpected side
benefit was that my thumbnail no longer ever catches on a string while double-thumbing! Not sure what's going on, other
than to suggest that it's a matter of the nylon string simply being thicker in diameter than the equivalent metal string? For whatever reason, I now find myself double-thumbing far more than I did in early years. Enough gobble-de-gook. Best wishes all!
Dennis Havlena - northern Michigan

My simple folk musical-instrument-making webpage can be found at this URL:
http://www.DennisHavlena.com I am located in the northern tip of Michigan''s
lower peninsula, not far from the Straits of Mackinac.

howseth - Posted - 04/16/2009:  10:34:19

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Drop Thumb: "To occasionally add nice short rhythmic elements to the tune here and there. While I love, and use drop-thumb a great deal, I must confess to being partial to the sliding, hammer-on/pull-off/full chord sound of regular frailing."

dhavlena - that is a very interesting perspective on clawhammer vs. frailing that I have not heard expressed like that before.

Howard

jamesd - Posted - 04/16/2009:  13:36:34

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I too had problems with Dts and searched for ways to do something else whenever the Tab or tune called for Dts. I spent more effort on trying to avoid DTs than actually practing DTs. After getting some good advice on this forum from members like Chip, OWC , Zepp and many others, I started adding DTs to tunes I already knew and after a couple of weeks the DTs became easier and easier. Now I do not avoid DTs and they tend to smooth out rather nicely. Its also nice to have the option now whether to use them or not. It can only help to learn DTs as soon as you can.........

RatLer - Posted - 04/16/2009:  21:55:56

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I never could get the hang of drop-thumb. Not that I haven't tried, guess I just worked my way around it.

RatLer

rjanecek - Posted - 04/20/2009:  06:28:17

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I myself am having a heck of a time with the drop thumb technique, harder for me than learning the CH motion, feels very un-natural and seems like my thumb has no business being in that neighborhood... lately Ive been trying to work through it, but so far just have manged to aviod it...

Rick

slabounty - Posted - 04/20/2009:  12:46:03

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Don't know if it helps, but Dan L.'s Clawhammer From Scratch teaches the entire 2nd section (all 12 tunes) using *only* drop thumb. That's right, drop thumb on every other beat. By the time you work your way through that section, you should have a pretty good handle on it. If for some reason you don't want to buy the book (you really should anyway), you should be able to take any simple tune you know and do the exact same thing. Just play a drop thumb on the "&" part of "1 &" and "3 &" (hope that made sense). I guess you'd also say the "a" part of bump-a-dit-ty there would be two bump-a-dit-ty s in each measure.



Scott LaBounty
Orange, CA

ekistl - Posted - 04/21/2009:  06:45:05

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I just attended an OT festival in Appomattox, VA and had the great pleasure of spending the weekend with Richard Bowman and the Slate Mountain Ramblers. During her instruction session, Marsha Todd, a very fine banjoist, said she never learned to drop thumb. They play for many dances, and she said "dancers don't care how many notes you play, or even if you play any notes at all; all they care about is rhythm." She described her playing as a "galloping strum, strum, thumb."

All that just to say, you can be a fine OT musician without drop thumbing.

-eric

"I can see fiddling around with a banjo, but how do you banjo around with a fiddle?" Duncan Purney, Musical Notes, WQXR Radio, May 16, 1984.

chip arnold - Posted - 04/21/2009:  07:45:00

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"All that just to say, you can be a fine OT musician without drop thumbing."

Of course you can .................. or can't. It depends entirely on what you want to accomplish. Marsha (who can also play 2-finger style) is good at what she does and so are her mom and dad. And of course she's right too. Her being right shouldn't imply that others who want to play differently are wrong :-) She would tell you that too. I've dropthumbed away madly with her dad's fiddling and he's never shot me or even had me arrested ;-) Play what's in your heart and learn the tricks that make that possible.




**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/21/2009:  08:18:44

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quote:

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Frailing is a legitimate style. For example Grandpa Jones and Doc Watson never use drop thumb. I think Pete Seeger also tried avoid drop thumb. However, the music will be more exciting if you learn drop thumb.

Jan-Olov

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Pete often used drop thumb. My first experiment with drop thumb was Skip To My Lou from Pete's old red book.

Jim
www.myspace.com/jimyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyandyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyyatesmazurek

whyteman - Posted - 04/21/2009:  14:58:42

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I think the Joplin rag from The Sting is called "The Entertainer".

Don.

Haul off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/21/2009:  15:57:40

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The second tune I learned had drop-thumbing in it.
Bluegrassers and folk-guitarists do it all the time.
It's only a big deal if you (or your teacher) make it
into one.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/21/2009:  22:14:19

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I play some tune where I almost never hit the 5th string. So is it drop thumb, when the thumb really doesn't "drop" off the 5th? Incidentally, I marvel at players who get cascades of notes with little or no drop-thumbing. I can't manage that. Those differences are what make old-time banjo so much fun--and result in our mantra: "whatever works."

Bill

whyteman - Posted - 04/22/2009:  05:52:17

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Bill,

I play some Irish tunes(Jigs and Slides) like "Merrily Kiss the Quaker" where I do not, due to the time sig., hit the 5th string at all. On some song back ups, I sorta due an Oscar Jenkins thing where I finger pick guitar style, but without the 5th. Not often, but it adds variety.

Don.

Haul off your overcoat and roll up your sleeve.

majikgator - Posted - 04/26/2009:  08:55:25

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i had a hard time for a while with drop thumb but drop thumb isn't everything nor even necessary to get a nice sound proof of this particular pudding is Doc Watson he doesn't drop thumb at all but i'm certainly not going to be the one to tell him he can't play. That being said it may come to you yet don't quit trying.

jk

notserp89m - Posted - 04/26/2009:  22:29:55

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i'm just saying what everyone else has said, if you learn drop thumb it's another tool to use. Tonight i actually used that tool to help me. I was going over Greasy Coat (which i had learned without drop thumb a while back), and i always thought the way i had been playing it just sounded so boring. I added a little drop thumb on the slide at the "I don't" part and the whole song seemed right. Just adding that little rhythmic change on the one little part gave the entire song a whole new sound.

g-hog - Posted - 04/27/2009:  04:42:38

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I think people can do an excellent job of clawhammer without drop thumb at all.

I personally heard Doc Watson say he can't do it, gave up on it, and manages with left-hand stuff... which is understandable... and, hey, if he can't do it, that's good enough for me.

I've played with very little drop thumb for years, and been pretty happy with it... but I've worked on it here and there and tried to sneak it in when I could... but to me it's clumsy and hard to do to my own satisfaction.

Recently, life events have once again really mostly stopped my playing for a while, but when I've picked up the banjo here and there in between stuff, I decided, since I've been under too much stress and depressed and unable to cope with all the things going on, I'll just mess with drop thumb and nothing else. This seems to be paying off, and it seems like drop thumbing, although still clumsy and difficult in my experience, is starting to fit in like I want it to.

I've decided that when life calms back down again and I get back to youtubing, I'm gonna put some stuff on that I played before without drop thumb, and then try it get it on there with drop thumb to just see the difference. My youtube has a lot of my own banjo journeys from a couple of years back when I started youtubing, and especially the changes I made after spending a few days with Dwight Diller. By the way, Dwight was not that big on telling people to drop thumb... his idea was you can do fine without it, and if it ever starts working for you, good, otherwise, don't worry about it and just get your playing down good.

So... I plan to try to get some drop-thumbing up on my youtube page soon ( http://www.youtube.com/user/groundhogpeggy ) just to show where I am with it at this point... maybe after that I'll get the nerve to put some fiddling up there... but will not be responsible for anyone's ear doctor bills afterward.

majikgator - Posted - 04/27/2009:  13:39:35

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as far as a method of learning drop thumb, i like the way Mike Iverson explains it at his web site and i recently sat in on a beginners class Mark Johnson gave and he explained it the same way - basically start with single note brushes 1 - 2 and 1 - 5, where the 2 and 5 are your thumb and make SURE when you strike the first string with your finger your thumb comes to rest on the 2 or 5 at the EXACT SAME TIME, then just lift it off to sound the 2 or 5. practice these two seperately then once you have that down exactly, mix them together 1-2 1-5 1-2 1-5 slowly eventually you get faster and can change the 2 to a 3 or 4..

jk

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/28/2009:  02:18:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by g-hog
I personally heard Doc Watson say he can't do it, gave up on it, and manages with left-hand stuff... which is understandable... and, hey, if he can't do it, that's good enough for me.

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I can hardly argue against talent of the magnitude of Doc Watson, but I'll offer this:

I'd agree that you can get by with very little drop-thumbing,
but there are times when getting an indispensible note with
a left-hand technique is so much more complicated than simply
reaching down and plucking it with your thumb.

I am a firm believer that one's style should be defined by what he *can* do, not by what he *can't*.


R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/28/2009:  19:55:22

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Doc also plays a lot of North Carolina two-finger style, which sounds like really clean frailing. His index finger is so fast that he can get a lot of those "extra" notes that way.

Bill

manmademusic - Posted - 04/28/2009:  20:42:35

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Drop thumbing was a perplexing affair for me at first. Although I understood the mechanism in making it work, any attempts resulted in a thumb/string entanglement thus destroying the continuity of the tune. Not one to give up easily I was determined to make it work so I deliberately used it (quietly) during any and all waltzes or slow tunes at my weekly jam session. I also used it regularly every night when I played childrens tunes for my 5 year old at bedtime; she didn't seem to mind my tangle fingers too much. Within a couple of weeks I began to notice the DT was working well for the slow tunes and childrens tunes I had been playing and so I started applying it to other tunes and it worked out just fine. That was probably 8 months ago and I have enjoyed using DT ever since. Starting out with slow tunes seemed to work for me with the DT technique.

Gary
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