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Shimdog - Posted - 01/24/2009: 16:36:12
As mentioned briefly in another thread, I stopped by Steve Huber's shop yesterday for some adjustments to my banjo. While I was there, he had me try out two conversions ( a #3 and a Grenada). In these two banjos he had installed prototypes of a new tone ring he is preparing to offer...not sure when, though. These were full weight rings not conversion rings in case you were wondering.
You are not going to believe it until you hear them for yourselves. The sound was as close to a prewar flathead as you can imagine from a conversion.
I wish I could give you all of the technical work that has gone into this new ring, but I couldn't do it justice.
All I can say is if Steve puts out new rings in normal production, and they perform like these, look out. It will have the BHO community buzzing. Let's hope it turns out that way. Whew.
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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Jeller - Posted - 01/24/2009: 17:42:16
Do you know if they are no hole or 20 hole?
2 Corinthians 5:10
89GranadaHF - Posted - 01/24/2009: 19:41:57
I don't know all the details of the new ring but I do know what they have been hearing out of these prototypes is unbelievable. I know where one was placed in a 1999 Gibson ES 49 classic and this thing became a cannon. I'm not just talking volume but great tone up and down the neck. This banjo wasn't bad but something was missing that was found in this new ring. I think some of the folks at Banjothon got an eye opening experience with the new ring in one of Steve's banjos there!
vincentbanjogh - Posted - 01/25/2009: 06:28:53
If these rings are that much better than the current Huber ring, I think Steve should give Huber banjo owners a discount to upgrade.
www.keithkline.com
renopker - Posted - 01/25/2009: 07:18:02
So is this ring to replace the last rings that sounded like a prewar??
Joe Jakonczuk - Posted - 01/25/2009: 07:20:46
I mean no disrespect to Huber but I thought the current rings were perfect matches to prewar rings. What is different from the prewar?
lightgauge - Posted - 01/25/2009: 08:08:07
If anyone ever finds "The perfect match to prewar rings" , other makers will struggle. I probably need to duck when I say this, but I have never heard my idea of "prewar sound" in a Huber banjo. I can hope this ring will produce it.
Obviously, I am not the only one who feels this way, since his search has continued to evolve. Our ideas and ears are each different and I am thankful people such as Steve continue efforts to make us all happy. I look forward to hearing one !
Would love to be on a tone ring testing team. It's getting too expensive to try them all.
Arthur Hatfield - Posted - 01/25/2009: 09:05:35
I have never heard any new banjo that sounded like a pre war regardless how good it is there is no substitute for 80 year old rims and resonators but I have heard pre war pots with Huber rings that got as close to pre war flatheads as with any ring I've heard and I bellieve I've heard about all of the rings out there.Let's not forget Ron Stewarts style 1 all the years it had a Huber ring in it that he done all those famous recordings with. Also the very best pre war conversion I ever done had an old Huber ring in it. I will definitely be among one of the first to try the new ring if Steve will sell me one.
Arthur Hatfield
HATFIELD BANJO''S
GLASGOW, KY 42141
(270)646-5219
BANJO WEBSITE WWW.HATFIELDBANJOS.COM
EMAIL HATFIELDBANJOS@SCRTC.COM
Joe Jakonczuk - Posted - 01/25/2009: 10:15:48
By matches to prewar I was referring to the alloy, not the sound coming from the banjo. Sorry for the confusion.
Edited by - Joe Jakonczuk on 01/25/2009 10:20:02
rupickin5 - Posted - 01/25/2009: 11:08:05
My understanding, limited to what I've heard over many years, is that all the original pre-war hi-profile full-weight flat head tone ring are not identical. Some weight a little more or less; some have slightly different metal formula percentages; some have no holes; some have a different "cut" on the interior chamber (not seen from installed rings); and some of these holy grail tone rings have a slightly different tone, or tones from one another when "tapped". I think Steve's original "Huber tone rings" are (as best as one can achieve w/ his background and talents) a match to the pre-war ring in his RB-75 (w/ the style 7 fingerboard & peghead). I think the tone ring under discussion here is being developed from a different pre-war flat head ring that came in a banjo he acquired from Gruhn. The original is scary good and soooo musical. My hats' off to Steve to use his abilities to explore this option further.
Brian
banjodr - Posted - 01/25/2009: 12:29:54
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Jakonczuk
By matches to prewar I was referring to the alloy, not the sound coming from the banjo. Sorry for the confusion.
Joe actually the alloy isn't the big issue change. Everybody out there making rings does a great job researching the old compositions of the old rings. Steve is taking a totally different approach to the fabrication processes and with that, he has discovered some characteristiics of the old rings that until now weren't really considered as having much to do with the contribution to the tone and overall sound of a banjo....not just an old banjo but banjo in general. And to the response of the upgrade.....there will definately be an upgrade retrofit availability when the ring is released and in production. That is my style 3 conversion that shimdog played and it will be at SPGMA on display for you guys to hear. Stay Tuned! gDGBD
Joe Jakonczuk - Posted - 01/25/2009: 12:41:06
Thank you very much for the explanation.
Gomer - Posted - 01/25/2009: 13:38:06
But will it matchthe majesty of the Burlile Tone ring? I am only asking the question?
"ever searching for that special post-war / pre-submerged sound"
( )=====’==::
banjodr - Posted - 01/25/2009: 14:20:52
Not sure what Magesty sounds like, but there will be enough comparison to all the other rings in due time. I lieu of hyjacking Shim's thread I may start a thread where I can discuss what we know about the new ring at this time. thanks
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
RB11 Player - Posted - 01/25/2009: 15:58:47
Another flavor of the day with an exuse to raise the price during hard times. Are all used Huber rings going to be worthless now?
Edited by - RB11 Player on 01/25/2009 16:01:29
banjodr - Posted - 01/25/2009: 16:08:44
Yeah but if you like vanilla, you'll probably stay with vanilla. Price hasn't been established. you can always make a clock out of your Huber rings or tape a quarter to it then it will always be worth something
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
Ebanjo - Posted - 01/25/2009: 16:20:54
I'm sure that it will be a great tone ring, but I would have a hard time parting with one he put in my '33 TB-1 in '99. Flatthead (Jim) would probably do bodily harm to me if I did. LOL
Eric Ellis
Shimdog - Posted - 01/25/2009: 16:27:39
I really wasn't intending to stir up things with my post. It is interesting to read some of the reactions. There are those who are excited and those showing skepticism about the new ring versus his current one (with visions of marketing ploys, etc). From my perspective, the prewar flathead sound is created as a sum of a number of factors. The biggest probably being the ring and the rim...and how they interact with one another over time. I think Steve would agree that a great prewar flathead has a sound that has yet to be duplicated perfectly. That said his current ring, along with others such as Burlile, Blaylock, McPeake, etc come pretty darn close in many banjos. To Steve's credit he is constantly thinking of ways to continue to improve his materials and process to get even closer to "that" sound. As mentioned by banjodr I understand there is a process change with respect to this new ring based on new information he learned and testing. I am simply reporting what I heard in the two I played. Hopefully you can go to SPGMA to hear it for yourself.
Importantly, I don't feel this makes the current rings obsolete. They still sound great. That's why so many players (me included) are very happy with them, just as the owners of the other rings are with theirs.
Jeller...I believe the ones I played were the 20 hole variety.
Thanks,
Paul
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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Friedrich Nietzsche
plunka5 - Posted - 01/25/2009: 19:06:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ebanjo
I'm sure that it will be a great tone ring, but I would have a hard time parting with one he put in my '33 TB-1 in '99. Flatthead (Jim) would probably do bodily harm to me if I did. LOL
Eric Ellis
Eric, you've got a GREAT sounding banjo...but, I know for sure 1/2 that or more is the dude behind the resonator pickin' on that thing! THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE ON GETTING TO KNOW YOUR BANJO!!!!!!
Mike Rowe - Posted - 01/25/2009: 19:46:25
"tape a quarter to it then it will always be worth something"
Now THAT'S a funny line! I'm afraid I'll have to steal THAT one.
1983 Deering Deluxe (2008 JLS #4 tonering/ Cox rim/ Arthur Hatfield setup)
2001 Stelling Red Fox
--What''s time to a hog?--
PickaFive - Posted - 01/25/2009: 21:44:19
Dang, there goes my 2008 tax refund and second economic stimulus payment combined!
Can I get one pretty soon? I haven't been practicing much lately and need the new ring just to stay as prewar as I was when I was practicing more.
PickaFive
pipefitter61 - Posted - 01/25/2009: 23:45:17
Well, I don't know from squirt about the "new" ring, or "process" but I DO know that if Steve Huber had anything to do with it, the homework has been done... Over, and over again. And as far as discounts to upgrade, Try asking GM for a discount because fuel injection was invented, and your '57 chevy didn't come with it! As long as there are innovators, improvements WILL be made. The Huber was the BEST thing going at the time (and STILL pretty damned good!) If he improved on that, and you want one, you should buy it. From a manufacturers standpoint I would see no reason to "discount" anything.
Edited by - pipefitter61 on 01/25/2009 23:53:17
RB100 - Posted - 01/26/2009: 03:23:32
quote:
Originally posted by pipefitter61
Well, I don't know from squirt about the "new" ring, or "process" but I DO know that if Steve Huber had anything to do with it, the homework has been done... Over, and over again. And as far as discounts to upgrade, Try asking GM for a discount because fuel injection was invented, and your '57 chevy didn't come with it! As long as there are innovators, improvements WILL be made. The Huber was the BEST thing going at the time (and STILL pretty damned good!) If he improved on that, and you want one, you should buy it. From a manufacturers standpoint I would see no reason to "discount" anything.
A good explanation, Ed. If anyone thinks the present Huber rings are worthless, I know a lot of folks who will gladly take them off your hands - including me.... [57 Chevy? Now, I know you are too young to have 'cruised' around in one of those in your high school days! ] Bill "I''ve been to Georgia on a fast train..." Shaver North Georgia Bluegrass Chronicles http://bcbrown.net/bluegrass/chronicles/
tomboden - Posted - 01/26/2009: 03:49:08
quote:
Originally posted by banjodr
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Jakonczuk
By matches to prewar I was referring to the alloy, not the sound coming from the banjo. Sorry for the confusion.
Joe actually the alloy isn't the big issue change. Everybody out there making rings does a great job researching the old compositions of the old rings. Steve is taking a totally different approach to the fabrication processes and with that, he has discovered some characteristiics of the old rings that until now weren't really considered as having much to do with the contribution to the tone and overall sound of a banjo....not just an old banjo but banjo in general. And to the response of the upgrade.....there will definately be an upgrade retrofit availability when the ring is released and in production. That is my style 3 conversion that shimdog played and it will be at SPGMA on display for you guys to hear.
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
I mean, no offense, but lots of people claim they have discovered the "secret" to make the perfect pre War Copy. Sometimes I wish they would concentrate more a finding the secret for the prefect Tonering instead. It seems strange to assume that Gibson has made the ultimate best possible tonering and the only goal for the next 20 000 Years can only be to somehow get as close to those Rings from the 1930''s as possible.  http://profile.myspace.com/index.cf...ID=161632859www.bluegrassfamily.ch
pipefitter61 - Posted - 01/26/2009: 06:30:38
quote:
Originally posted by RB100
[quote] 57 Chevy? Now, I know you are too young to have 'cruised' around in one of those in your high school days!
Bill
Actually Bill I DID have a 55, and a 57 chevy! (not at the same time) And wish I had them back! LOL. "At least 1/2 of what you hear, good or bad, is produced by your right hand. Without the left though, you would hear it all in a "G" chord!"
RB100 - Posted - 01/26/2009: 07:30:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ebanjo
I'm sure that it will be a great tone ring, but I would have a hard time parting with one he put in my '33 TB-1 in '99. Flatthead (Jim) would probably do bodily harm to me if I did. LOL
Eric Ellis
Eric, Is this the banjo you were playing at the Lester Flatt Days with David Peterson and 1946? That YouTube version of 'Long Journey Home' is 'pawr-ful'...banjo sounds great and pickin' is excellent...I would be hard pressed to find a sound that fits my taste better...IMO Bill "I''ve been to Georgia on a fast train..." Shaver North Georgia Bluegrass Chronicles http://bcbrown.net/bluegrass/chronicles/
banjodr - Posted - 01/26/2009: 08:16:53
Were the Chevy's as tempromental as a banjo can be?
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
pipefitter61 - Posted - 01/26/2009: 17:18:50
Sometimes even worse! But mine wasn't exactly the way it left the factory either! :)
RB100 - Posted - 01/26/2009: 18:24:46
quote:
Originally posted by pipefitter61
Sometimes even worse! But mine wasn't exactly the way it left the factory either! :)
So, in a manner of speaking, the original Huber tone ring is like the sweet 55 Chevy with the 265 V8 and the 'new' Huber will be like the 57 model with a few mods (both awesome, but in different ways) - I knew there had to be some way of comparing banjos and tinkering with parts to the classic autos... In all seriousness, I am looking forward to hearing the new Huber and how it will sound in one of Arthur's conversions - whether one of his personal banjos or one he has done for a customer...again, that is probably going to be my most convenient frame of reference. I also know that two of my very favorite banjos have the 'classic' Huber rings. My $0.02 (the Chevy analogy was thrown in for free  ) Bill "I''ve been to Georgia on a fast train..." Shaver North Georgia Bluegrass Chronicles http://bcbrown.net/bluegrass/chronicles/
carteru93 - Posted - 01/26/2009: 18:34:13
Geez, this thread was right above Mike Gregory's "FREE 5th string spikes", and for a minute I thought the thread said "FREE Huber Tonerings!" ...I wish
___________________________________________________
Carter
Blaylock Bear Tracks Banjo the "Growler"
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/27/2009: 06:37:36
Like the rings or not-thats subjective. But you cannot find fault with the quality of the ring. I have put tons of Steve's rings in customers banjos over the past few years and in many pw coversions. I also have one in a style 1 coversion that I use as my road axe. I can honestly say the Huber ring is a good as any out there and far more reasonably priced. His new ring should be what those of us who respect his products to be-quality.
Edited by - Banjophobic on 01/27/2009 06:38:55
banjodr - Posted - 01/27/2009: 07:04:14
Phobic that's the whole idea behind what Steve is doing. The attempt and constant drive for something better. Something better for anyone that wants it with an understanding that you can't (and couldn't even if you wanted to) be everything to everyone.
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
Hotrodtruck - Posted - 01/27/2009: 07:12:08
Having dealt with Steve and bought his rings, I will say that no one is more attuned to quality and the pursuit of perfection than he is. However, I have been an active participant in the ring chase for too many years. There was/is no single pre-war tone that we all can agree on. There were too many variations to ever say that a single ring is "it". I'm not even sure any more that what some people call the "pre-war" tone is the one I like best. I don't claim to be any expert on pre-war Mastertones, but I know what I like, as do most folks.
I am glad to know that I am not alone in thinking and saying that modern banjos can be as good as the pre-war ones- even if some disagree that it sounds exactly like their pre-war. Check out Charlie Cushman's setup discussion, on his website, and you will get a hint that he just might think a top quality banjo, with the right components, can sound as good as the pre-war sound (whichever pre-war sound you choose)we have been conditioned to accept as best . I don't mean to put words in his mouth, or to speak for him in any way, but read between the lines. He acknowledges that there is more than a single pre-war tone, but that there is a "common thread" among the good ones that can be found in some of today's instruments using quality components. I think that most of us who have spent time and money buying top-quality components for our Mastertones have achieved "a" pre-war sound by now. Further changes may result in another pre-war sound, but is our picking ability now the limitibg factor in our sound?
Having said all that, I will probably buy one of Steve's new rings if I like it better than what I have- but not because it purports to be more pre-war than what I have.
Mike
"I thought I was dancing, until someone stepped on my hand!"
banjodr - Posted - 01/27/2009: 08:25:02
Mike, that is well said. It is what's right for each individual. I'm sure that Earl's banjo in any other hands (pros included) wouldn't sound like "Earl" but it would still sound great. It's what you like. Banjos are as individual as each owner and I'm glad it is that way. It would be too boring on here if it were.
Stay Tuned! gDGBD
prewartb3 - Posted - 01/27/2009: 09:04:57
IMO there is no such thing as one prewar sound. For those who attend banjothon and know I will ask the question:
How many original prewar banjos @ banjothon sounded exactly the same?
In my experience not too many. The same as Steve's original ring or his new model ring. For all the ring makers out there each chose what they thought sounded best and do make great copies. Now as the picker it's your turn to choose the sound you like then pick the hell out of it.
If it wasn't for people like Steve and all the other ring makers out there all our banjos would sound the same. Reminds me of the 70's.
PrewarTB3
Edited by - prewartb3 on 01/27/2009 09:06:01
Hotrodtruck - Posted - 01/27/2009: 09:12:44
Heck, I'm still trying to be a pre-war picker! I'm old enough , but not good enough
Mike
"I thought I was dancing, until someone stepped on my hand!"
vincentbanjogh - Posted - 01/27/2009: 15:38:11
Like a lot of folks here, if I had Earls Granada, I'd probably still be looking for something to improve the tone. I'm thinking that purchasing one of these to see if there might be a noticeable improvement, might be a pretty expensive proposition though. In my case it would be a gold plated engraved one. Don't mean to sound down on it though. I'm all for anything Steve Huber does and anxious to hear some reviews of these rings.
www.keithkline.com
Edited by - vincentbanjogh on 01/27/2009 15:43:53
banjobanjobanjo - Posted - 01/27/2009: 17:34:48
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Steve Huber and I'm sure this ring is bringing something new to the party.
But I have grown numb to all the hype of the latest greatest tone ring, Burlile, Dannick, Huber, Yates, yada yada yada. I've really come to believe that it is an important component, but only one of many, and all the other quality components combined with a experienced set-up are what really make up the sound of a banjo. And it will either have it or not.
It's great to be passionate and get excited about the banjo, but after awhile the hype just starts to sound like a droning noise.
Sorry, it's been a rough day at work. 
Ebanjo - Posted - 01/27/2009: 18:17:05
Mike, Thanks for the compliment. And Bill, that is my '38 TB-11 on the Dave Peterson videos. Glad you liked it.
Eric Ellis
jfb - Posted - 01/27/2009: 19:08:51
I really don't feel qualified to add much to this thread, but here goes..
Steve picked a little on my old banjo at the Banjothon, and I think his comment was (Clarence was there, help me remember) Ill bet the one I made for you doesn't sound this good..or something to that effect..and my answer was..its pretty close..I have been a fan of the 50 + ounce weight in the old Gibson flathead rings for quite a while..although all the old flatheads sound very good..the heavier ones, to my ears, have just a little something more that I like..the Vintage Steve made for me, is supposed to be (I have never took it off to weigh it ) in that same weight range. I think the heavier weight, along with maybe different processes, is a plus for him. I am happy with the Huber I have for sure..BTW..banjodr..telll him I sent a couple of emails with photos and was wondering if they got there ok..thanks
Edited by - jfb on 01/27/2009 19:11:17
RB100 - Posted - 01/27/2009: 19:22:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ebanjo
Mike, Thanks for the compliment. And Bill, that is my '38 TB-11 on the Dave Peterson videos. Glad you liked it.
Eric Ellis
Eric, that is some great pickin' and that banjo sounds wonderful...if someone asked me for my definition of 'bluegrass music'...this is as good as it gets to me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo_nGpAgjl8Bill "I''ve been to Georgia on a fast train..." Shaver North Georgia Bluegrass Chronicles http://bcbrown.net/bluegrass/chronicles/
want2pla - Posted - 01/28/2009: 19:45:22
Will someone tell me when they find the prewar sound? It has been lost for a long time and there are lots of people looking for it.
It seems to me that this prewar sound search is a little like the guy that went looking for the forest but never found it because there were too many trees in front of him, blocking his path. Does the perception of the prewar sound change from time to time? I think maybe it does. How many different times in recent memory has there been a new development that was "it"--the prewar sound? I'm sure the new Huber ring will be awesome---everything he does is top notch. But its only a matter of time...
JT
Shimdog - Posted - 01/29/2009: 11:15:37
Here is my take on the "prewar sound" for what little it is worth...and it ain't much. I agree with the skeptics who ask the question, "What is the prewar sound, really?" I get the fact that every prewar sounds slightly different especially in the hands of different people. That said, all of the very best sounding banjos I have ever had the opportunity to play have been prewar flatheads from the 30's to early 40's. That doesn't mean that every flathead I've heard or played is awesome. The set-up may be off or there can be something lacking in some cases. In the best, though, there is just a big even growl and pop in the tone all of the way up the neck...and in every key when capoed. For example, listen to a conversion vs. a good flathead capoed to A. The third string in good old flatheads is still full, not thin. It loses nothing.
I think that Steve simply wants to replicate the qualities of that "sound" and keeps researching and tinkering to get closer.
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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." - Friedrich Nietzsche
FXHERE - Posted - 01/29/2009: 11:42:03
The first fuel injected car I ever saw was a 57 chevy from the factory...It didnt work but they had it so you could park it and show it I suppose..As far as the Huber --New Ring--I was visiting Steve las t year and he had a ring on the table that had a casting flaw--a small piece mising-- and he said it wasnt his usual ring but a different formula and I think he refered to it as an RB ring...I bought the ring and it was a no hole ring..I dont know if he just didnt finish it or what...I have not used it as yet but I may just have to rush that along..The Huber rings have always been the hardest to set up for me of any ring and I dont know why...I found out that you just put them in and play them for awhile then try seting them up...I was telling Arthur Hatfield this and he said yes but they were worth every minute spent once they were dialed in and I agree...I dont know if I already have one of the rings or not, but sounds like it is something different...Doug
Pre-War Picker-----New Banjo
pipefitter61 - Posted - 01/31/2009: 21:05:57
quote:
Originally posted by FXHERE
The Huber rings have always been the hardest to set up for me of any ring and I dont know why...
Doug, you have to run your housecat out of the back of the banjo before you set up a Huber! Steve's rings do not get along with housecats! "At least 1/2 of what you hear, good or bad, is produced by your right hand. Without the left though, you would hear it all in a "G" chord!"
Barretone - Posted - 02/02/2009: 10:14:21
I don't know what Steve is working on, but I've got a 38-ounce custom conversion ring he made for me on my 1933 TB3 and it is astonishingly good. Very dry with lots of "fat" middle. I also find that it never bottoms out when I hit a note harder. It just gives you more back.
Randy
picker TB-2 - Posted - 02/13/2009: 06:52:50
Well for all its worth, I think a lot of people make a good quality ring includeing Steve Huber. But i have found a great ring without a great piece of wood meaning the rim will not have the prewar sound. I think the rim is just as important as the tone ring, and it takes a combination of both with a good setup to make a great sounding banjo !
But thats just my opinion !
picker TB-2
BvilleDon - Posted - 04/02/2009: 14:52:39
It is fun to go through old copies of Banjo Newsletter. Someone had always just found the right combo for the prewar sound...always. I have an issue, I think middle 90s, where Kulesh came out with his 10 hole ring, the auther of the piece (I can't recall whom) said that the ring was taken to McPeake, who tested it and said something like "you nailed it". The big banjos of the day were the Rich and Taylors (they advertised in what is now the Stelling space, on the back cover) . So everything was solved about 1995 or so (or earlier, if you read earlier issues talking about the then flavor of the month) The Rich and Taylors are no longer made, the 10 hole tone ring is still available, but you don't hear much talk of it.
It is like the old Stephen King teleplay where the antagonist said "Hell is repetition"! I am not putting down the new Huber project at all; I have just grown so weary of people making the same claims over and over.
Anyone with a large selection of Banjo Newsletter old copies already knows how many times we have been told the prewar sound has been found. Many times, the item under review was often heavily advertised!
BvilleDon
Edited by - BvilleDon on 04/02/2009 15:01:05
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