terry.mcbride - Posted - 12/26/2008:  12:34:57

Is there any difference between bounce, drive, and swing? I don't seem to be able to find clear definitions/explanations of these concepts. I'm clear what swing is. But anytime someone tries to explain drive or bounce, it sounds like the same thing to me. So, what does the BHO Theory Group say?

Thanks!

sjyokel - Posted - 12/26/2008:  13:56:41

This question comes up a lot. "Drive" and "bounce" aren't really formal musical concepts...not the way "swing" is. I feel that bounce is just another way of describing swing rhythm, and drive describes that bluegrass rhythm that emphasizes the back beat. A lot of people agree with these descriptions, and others believe they refer to other things (don't ask me what). BUT, I think most people agree that they know them when they hear them.

You could probably find a lot of different opinions if you use the search function, but you might get some useful responses if you post some links to clips to see if folks can agree on what bounce and drive sound like.

Banjov1 - Posted - 12/26/2008:  14:00:36

Nothing too theoretical in my response since it's coming completely from me and never studied, read or heard, but I always thought of bounce as something up tempo that's rhythmic enough to literally make you want to bounce a bit. Swing is something with a syncopated rhythm which may also be "bouncy", but not neccessarily. I think of drive as something played with heavy precision.

Better yet I can use body parts to expand a little more precisely. Bounce usually makes me want to move at the knees. Swing makes me want to move my wrists (like I'm riffing on funk air guitar) and drive makes me rock my head.

my 2 cents

Tony

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/26/2008:  14:06:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by terry.mcbride

Is there any difference between bounce, drive, and swing? I don't seem to be able to find clear definitions/explanations of these concepts. I'm clear what swing is. But anytime someone tries to explain drive or bounce, it sounds like the same thing to me. So, what does the BHO Theory Group say?

Thanks!

---

Terry - Excellent question, actually, set of questions.

"Drive" is its own special category and is not the same thing as playing with "bounce" or "swing", which are closely related but loose terms. We describe bluegrass banjo players who play on the leading edge of the beat in straight time as having "drive". There's no wobbliness or unsteadiness. It's what Earl Scruggs has in his breakdowns, tunes like 'Shuckin' the Corn', 'Pike County Breakdown' and so many others. Hard-driving banjo excites people and makes them feel good, which is why many of us took up bluegrass banjo in the first place. It's fun as hell to drive on a banjo, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you are playing at a fast tempo. You can play at slower tempos and still have drive. Listen to Ron Block, Sammy Shelor or Jim Mills or any of the solid contemporary bluegrass pickers. It's precision-playing and it comes at you like a steam locomotive maintaining a constant speed. Drive!

Okay, I thought of something: To hear "drive" at a good tempo, please listen to a tune I wrote (D Tuning) 'Elephant Hop'. Recording with me on that session were Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, Stuart Duncan, David Grier and Mark Schatz. Bil VornDick engineered (Nashville). I hear some "bounce" too, though I tend to bounce less these days on breakdowns, saving "bounce" for the swingier tunes, especially jazz tunes and Celtic hornpipes.

Compared to "drive", "bounce" and "swing" mean something else and are virtually synonymous when talking bluegrass banjo. "Swing" is a term from jazz that suggest a bouncy eighth note rhythm similar to, but less jerky, than the dotted eighth note rhythm found in Celtic hornpipes and some slow reels: DOT-da-Dot-da, DOT-da-Dot-da. Actually the phrasing feels more like da-DOT-da-Dot, da-DOT-da-Dot. Count: & ONE & Two & THREE-&-Four.

Another way to understand "bounce" in a Scruggsy bluegrass context is to repeat this word with stresses indicated in CAPs - here's two measures: | CHAT -ta - NOO - ga, CHAT - ta - NOO - ga | CHAT - ta - NOO - ga, CHAT - ta - NOO - ga | (Big thanks to Bill Keith.)

For another tune that combines "drive" with a hint of "bounce", this time at a slower tempo, please listen to my 'Indian Summer' - off Bucket of Bees. It's C Tuning and uses Keith Banjo Tuners. Bill Keith, Tony Trischka also improvise breaks and we play a harmonized-triple-banjo break at the end that really bounces. In my mind's eye, I always think of Allen Shelton when I want to play bluegrass with a big bounce. He's the master.

Now, to hear "bounce" in a Celtic hornpipe context, please go to 'Morgaine's Hornpipe'. This was the first tune I ever composed on banjo and I still play it, though I play it even more hornpipier (bouncier) now.

This dotted-eighth-note (hornpipe) rhythm is about as bouncy as you can get; it is similar to, but more pronounced than, a swing rhythm; in fact, it is really an exaggeration of it. Okay, it's so bouncy that it sounds jerky next to a "straighter" swing rhythm, so how do we understand that?

"Swing" time (in 4/4 time) means that the "odd" eighth notes are held twice as long as the "even" eighth notes. Writing out four groups of triplets makes this clear. A triplet is written out for each pair of eighth notes. The combined time values of the first two notes of each triplet shows the duration of the "odd" eighth notes and the last note of the triplet shows the duration of the "even" eighth notes. In reality, "swing" is "elastic" - a phrase I picked up from my old guitar teacher Jorma Kaukonen (Airplane/Hot Tuna). Swing varies from player to player and context to context. In the end, swing is felt - not written - and it's felt differently - it's always a matter of degree and contextual.

Here is an example of jazz-inflected "bounce" or "swing" on a tune of mine - equal parts Scruggs, Crowe and Fleck - 'Chrome Attack'. On electric fiddle is Kenny Kosek and on guitar is Danny Weiss, borrowed from Tony Trischka & Skyline. (Tony helped produce.) Kenny plays a mean-triple-fiddle-bebop break that is out of this world: "Go to Pluto and turn left" kinda stuff. It swings in a real lounge lizard sort of way - very swampy.

You can increase and decrease the amount of swing you use once you get used to swinging. Back in the heyday of the Big Bands, some bands (usually the African American ones) were said to "swing" better than others, and few could swing like Count Basie's band. (My dad's a horn player so I grew up with traditional jazz and Swing Era music.)

Take note: Not all jazz (or bluegrass) musicians swing in the some way and players have to get used to playing with each other to swing well together. Swing is a matter of degree and becomes a "groove". The faster you play, the harder it becomes to swing and the timing tends to even out, so now you can focus on playing with more drive.

Hold on, I'll write this out for you, but it'll take a few minutes. Here's an exercise on the first string, alternating thumb and index in different rhythms, going from a straight (even) rhythm, to swing rhythm, to a hornpipe rhythm - all good practice.



Happy pickin,

Tom Hanway

Please see my homepage and new digital stores.

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 04/20/2009 05:48:48

terry.mcbride - Posted - 12/28/2008:  07:48:03

Tom,
Thank you so much for putting that together! That's a great explanation and one that every beginning should read. I enjoyed listening to the samples throughout.
Terry

NYCJazz - Posted - 01/01/2009:  17:10:17

Swing:

"If you have to ask, you'll never know."


- Louis Armstrong







It''s taken me all my life to learn what not to play.

~ Dizzy Gillespie

stanger - Posted - 01/02/2009:  14:36:56

Excellent presentation, Tom!

A small addition:
Bounce is easier to get (and swing, too, to a degree) if a player emphasizes those beats with a harder attack. It can sound lopsided at first, but it smoothes out with time and practice.

Swing is heavier syncopation than bounce. Oftentimes in classic swing, players will play behind the beat, take a short rest, play on the beat, then fall behind again. There is an element of anticipation always going on in good swing music.
Swing is done in many ways; to get a feel for it requires listening to Benny Goodman, Glen Miller, the Dorseys, and other big bands of the 30's and 40's. Django swung hard, but he played ahead of the beat, on it, and behind it at will, so he's harder to grab onto at first. And swing always needs one instrument playing right on the beat to work best, unless the band is very tight.
regards,
Stanger

The pen is mightier than the pigs.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/07/2009:  21:49:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by stanger

Excellent presentation, Tom!

A small addition:
Bounce is easier to get (and swing, too, to a degree) if a player emphasizes those beats with a harder attack. It can sound lopsided at first, but it smoothes out with time and practice.

Swing is heavier syncopation than bounce. Oftentimes in classic swing, players will play behind the beat, take a short rest, play on the beat, then fall behind again. There is an element of anticipation always going on in good swing music.

Swing is done in many ways; to get a feel for it requires listening to Benny Goodman, Glen Miller, the Dorseys, and other big bands of the 30's and 40's. Django swung hard, but he played ahead of the beat, on it, and behind it at will, so he's harder to grab onto at first. And swing always needs one instrument playing right on the beat to work best, unless the band is very tight.
regards,
Stanger

The pen is mightier than the pigs.

---

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 04/20/2009 05:49:33

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/20/2009:  17:17:53

A thought on Swung eights
I've been using tab writing software of late and have found the best representation of what I think of as "classic" swing sound is to dividde each quarter note into 8 units, giving 5 units to the first in the pair and 3 to the second - this makes the notes a little closer to evern thant the usual 2 and 1 triplet arrangement.
both are of course attempts to write out something that changes constantly - if you played swung eighths as precisely as I describe they would sound just as mechanical as unswung eights. I used the triplets description until I got the software -- everythign gets more precise with computers, and writing out the 5 + 3 figures is an absolute B@#$&% except withe the software. Reading them is a mess with or without software.
As I said at the start this is just a thought - swinging is something you do while playing, not somethign you do in writing music.

I haev no definitions for "bounce" or "drive" but I use an early entry into phrases to "drive" string bands - fiddlers use it too. Think of starting the first note of a phrase about a sixteenth or thirtysecondth early - but hold it for it's normal full length. So if the phrase starts on beat one of the measure the banjo hits the not (or better yet a slide leadign to the note) a bit on the left side of the measure bar. You can hear this in just about any tune but Foggy Mountain Breakdown is built on this leading the beat and it is done in EVERY measure involving the note D. In fact it is done to the point of... At any rate it makes a good example.

I think of "Bounce" as being an off kilter rhythm with a lot of syncopations - some as short as the "lead" described in the paragraph on drive others more like those ragtime syncopations that composers like Godschaulk and Joplin used. Think of Cakewalks - Sure it's 4/4 but the emphasis falls on the wrong syl LA ble. However, I wouldn't want to be quoted as any sort of expert on the subject.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Richard Dress - Posted - 04/20/2009:  17:54:05

To expand on what Tom Hanway said, let me throw in the idea that 'bounce' refers to the spacing of the notes rather than the note values.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 04/21/2009:  09:32:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Dress

To expand on what Tom Hanway said, let me throw in the idea that 'bounce' refers to the spacing of the notes rather than the note values.

---

Richard - that's a very interesting point, because on banjo, with very little sustain, space between notes is noticed by the ear more than duration of notes; in other words, the attack of each note is quickly followed by its decay. So the bounce that we hear is experienced as a function of the "spacing of the notes", as you put it. On an electric banjo with sustain, or if we plugged in and went through a compression-sustainer effect, turning up the “sustain”, this would not be quite so obvious, even if we attacked the strings in exactly the same way, i.e., Richard's "spacing" between hits. It's a brilliant point, and I hope addressing all these related terms puts them in proper context.

I thought of something else—another common term that is used in this context, particularly in jazz. “Swing” is sometimes referred to as "shuffle-time", and as played, it's really a fluid combination of many factors, including rhythm – typically divided into eighth-note patterns that we also find in bluegrass – phrasing (or articulation) and accents (emphases), the latter which I've added naturally by the use of double-stops (playing on two strings simultaneously). I could have added an accent symbol (>), making the tab even busier, but I thought pinches would accomplish the same trick because two notes together would naturally sound louder than one, but you still have to accent these pinches.

In jazz and bluegrass, we often write straight eighth notes to convey melody (in 4/4), but there’s a lot more going on when we’re actually playing music, and we can vary swing within a tune or passage—it’s not necessarily uniform throughout. This exercise is uniform, but it's only an exercise to demonstrate swing or shuffle-rhythm feel. Again, the "map" is not the territory.

Don’t take this exercise too fast. It’s just a variation on the common Scruggs “square roll”, or alternating TITM pattern, except that I’m doing pinches (instead of index or middle) on the upbeats, where the accents occur (naturally as pinches). To make it sound more like Scruggs, lose the pinches, but remember to accent, instead, with alternating index finger (on the second string) and middle finger (on the first string): TITM TITM.

At the top, count: .. Uh, four 'n' Uh; one 'n' Uh, two 'n' Uh, three 'n' Uh, four 'n' Uh....



Happy pickin,

Tom Hanway

Please see my homepage and global digital stores.

''Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy.'' - W. B. Yeats

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 05/12/2009 22:44:44

Kstevensmd - Posted - 04/21/2009:  16:50:33

Excellent question Terry and a great explanation Tom.

Tom, in the swing tab, I'm assuming the triplet is completed by double thumbing the first two notes and then finishing the third note with the index.

Ken Stevens
Grafton, MA

Tom Hanway - Posted - 04/21/2009:  20:34:00

No, it's not that, it's just what it is, i.e., notice the tie, the symbol tying notes together. That thang.

Does that register?

Happy pickin,

Tom Hanway

Please see my homepage and digital stores.

''Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy.'' - W. B. Yeats

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 04/21/2009 20:35:51