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mattn - Posted - 11/24/2008: 14:01:37
I've recently been enjoying all the novel ideas of Cathy Moore's over at http://banjomeetsworld.wordpress.com/
I'd like to try some of the tunes in different time signatures like 9/8 or 11/8, but whenever I try I have trouble latching on to the groove. I want to bob my head or tap a foot or have some physical motion (in addition to the right hand) that gets me moving in time like I would for 4/4 (2/4?) or 3/4 tunes. So this question is directed towards Cathy or anybody else who plays in time signatures like these: how to you feel the pulse of these songs physically?
And thanks for the great tunes, Cathy!
Matt
dbrooks - Posted - 11/24/2008: 14:15:31
I agree that Cathy has a great site her instruction fills some niches not addressed by other teachers.
David
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/24/2008: 14:53:47
It helps to think and tap your feet in a combination of 3s and 2s.
example - Blue Rondo A La Turk. Full rhythm is 36 beats divided into 4 measures of 9 beats - but the first three measures are in 12,12,123, and the last measure is 123,123,123
12,12,123 12,12,123, 12,12,123, 123,123 123
This is simpler than the compound 9/8 11/8 type of rhythms Cathy does, but it is as complex as I usually ever do, and a good place to start.
Flamenco rhythms are pretty cool for that too - usually 12 beats, the seguidilla rhythm is:
12, 12, 123, 123, 12.
several rhythms are based on La Polo with the emphasis on the last beat of the sets:
123, 123, 12, 12, 12
__> __> _> _> _>
While that last beat is a Major beat in the faster rhythms like bulerias, it tends to be downplayed in more stately forms like the Solea.
Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 11/24/2008 21:57:18
Cathy Moore - Posted - 11/24/2008: 16:09:03
quote:
Originally posted by mattn
I'd like to try some of the tunes in different time signatures like 9/8 or 11/8, but whenever I try I have trouble latching on to the groove. I want to bob my head or tap a foot or have some physical motion (in addition to the right hand) that gets me moving in time like I would for 4/4 (2/4?) or 3/4 tunes. So this question is directed towards Cathy or anybody else who plays in time signatures like these: how to you feel the pulse of these songs physically?
Matt, thanks for the kind words and for your challenging question. It's almost impossible to explain in text, so I'll probably just do a video. But for now: As Tony says, the main thing is to be able to hear and play the "quick" (2) and the "slow" (3). Everything is built on that. The way I got into odd rhythms was by dancing. So I started by moving mostly big muscle groups, which got the rhythm into my entire body. Then I progressed down to smaller muscles like those needed to play banjo. So I usually recommend that you find some music in the rhythms that you like and to do something approaching dance, even if it's just walking across the room by taking a step on each major beat. This will teach your body the difference between the 2 and 3. The 9/8 of Rampi Rampi could be felt as 2+2+2+3 and counted out as "1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2-3" with each number getting the same time value and with no pause between the clumps (chant robotically "1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 3"). You could also think of it as "quicka quicka quicka slow-and-a," with each syllable getting the same emphasis and no punctuation at the end of the phrase. So, for example, if you wanted to get the Rampi Rampi 2+2+2+3 / "quick quick quick slow" into your body, you might try walking across the room while Rampi Rampi is playing, stepping only 4 times in each measure, one step on each "quick" and one on the "slow." You'll hold your last step (the 3 or "slow") longer than the other three . If that's too weird, you could try tapping the head of the banjo on each major beat. When that seems to work, try adding smaller beats, such as tapping all 3 beats of the set of 3. Another trick is to think of a sentence or phrase that matches the rhythm. For example, the Rampi Rampi 2+2+2+3 could be something like "I don't want to see the hospital." The trick is to repeat the phrase evenly with no pause in between phrases, like "I don't want to see the hospital I don't want to see the hospital...." (Not the cheeriest of phrases but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.) Once you've internalized the difference between a 2 and a 3, you can play any of the common Balkan dance rhythms, because they're all built of 2s and 3s. A sampling for your dancing/walking/head thumping practice: 11/8 (gankino or kopanitsa): 2 2 3 2 2 ("quick quick slow-and-a quick quick") Sample: http://www.dunav.org.il/music/bulga...ino_Horo.mp37/8 (ruchenitsa): 2 2 3 Sample: http://www.dunav.org.il/music/bulga...Racenica.mp37/8 (lesnoto): 3 2 2 Sample: http://www.dunav.org.il/music/bulga...Devoishe.mp3 5/8: 2 3 Sample: http://www.dunav.org.il/music/bulga...Pajdusko.mp3For more music, you might check out the Bulgarian, Macedonian, Greek, and Turkish pages of this site: http://www.dunav.org.ilThere are several MP3s, and sometimes the notes explain the meter. And if you're in Germany in early May, come to the Banjoree, where I'll be teaching how to clawhammer in weird rhythms. Cathy Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorldIllinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
Edited by - Cathy Moore on 11/24/2008 16:10:54
nbanta - Posted - 11/24/2008: 18:46:55
quote:
Originally posted by mattn
I'd like to try some of the tunes in different time signatures like 9/8 or 11/8, but whenever I try I have trouble latching on to the groove. I want to bob my head or tap a foot or have some physical motion (in addition to the right hand) that gets me moving in time like I would for 4/4 (2/4?) or 3/4 tunes. So this question is directed towards Cathy or anybody else who plays in time signatures like these: how to you feel the pulse of these songs physically?
First of all, I have to say I'm a big fan of Cathy's, too. Thanks, Cathy, for posting those links! By far the best way to feel the groove of the time signatures used in Balkan dance is to just get out and do it. There likely is at least one international folk dancing group in your area that meets on a regular basis and does a variety of Balkan dances. Try contacting them to find out if there is a class or if their regular sessions include a time for teaching beginners--you'll want to check this first because some groups can be a bit exclusive. Many groups, however, will welcome beginners with open arms. Often, the first half hour or so is devoted to teaching. Careful, though, once you get to the point where you can pick up the dances without too much difficulty, international folk dancing can be as addictive as old-time music! Ned --Colorado
RaiseTheHatchet - Posted - 11/24/2008: 20:12:16
Cathy Moore's playing is awesome. trying to learn rampi rampi, great song
Aonach - Posted - 11/25/2008: 01:13:20
Cathy's site is a gem!-I'm lucky enough to know/play with Ben Paley(yep-Tom's son) and Tab Hunter in Brighton on the South coast over here in England-and they play fantastic old time stuff as a guitar fiddle duo as well as Klezmer and Irish and Scandinavian tunes -dark modal wonderful stuff that leaves you tingling. And I thought it was out of my reach as a relatively new Banjo player...an opinion I'v revised after finding Cathy's great site and realising I can play this stuff-or at least be inspired and enthusiastic enough to give it a go!-So thank's Cathy!
And OWC -your post is really good for beginning to understand the rhythm stuff-Cheer's!
O.k-I'm off to work with rampi rampi ringing in my head...
Aonach - Posted - 11/25/2008: 01:13:21
Cathy's site is a gem!-I'm lucky enough to know/play with Ben Paley(yep-Tom's son) and Tab Hunter in Brighton on the South coast over here in England-and they play fantastic old time stuff as a guitar fiddle duo as well as Klezmer and Irish and Scandinavian tunes -dark modal wonderful stuff that leaves you tingling. And I thought it was out of my reach as a relatively new Banjo player...an opinion I'v revised after finding Cathy's great site and realising I can play this stuff-or at least be inspired and enthusiastic enough to give it a go!-So thank's Cathy!
And OWC -your post is really good for beginning to understand the rhythm stuff-Cheer's!
O.k-I'm off to work with rampi rampi ringing in my head...
Aonach - Posted - 11/25/2008: 01:14:34
^
Sorry!
tanglefingers - Posted - 11/25/2008: 02:11:58
quote:
It's almost impossible to explain in text, so I'll probably just do a video
WEWT!!!!... more vids from Cathy... If ONLY i could have personal lessons from her....(searches through change jar for enuff shrapnel for international flight...$17.45 and 4c off fuel voucher... next week maybe) I dont even know 95% of the tunes most ppl know as "standards" with Cathys lessons that doesnt matter, you come for the techniques and you get the tune for free! Cathy if you ever decide to produce a DVD with say 20 of your favorite tunes in lesson format like your utube stuff, I will be first to buy... any other takers? the definition of "perfect pitch" is lobbing a banjo into a dumpster and hitting an accordian !
rotten - Posted - 11/25/2008: 03:14:27
I've been working on that Finnish Polka, I'm really having fun with it. (The most fun I've had with a tab in several months.)
[ My only complaint is that her site kills the Firefox browser on my Zonbu machine. (I don't know why.) I have to go look at it on Ubuntu, or my Mac. (No Windoze boxen in this house.) ]
Cathy Moore - Posted - 11/25/2008: 07:19:27
Rotten, I'm sorry the site messes with Firefox on Zonbu. It's a hosted WordPress.com site, so unfortunately I can't do much to change its settings. I'm on a Mac most of the time.
Tanglefingers, if my main business takes me to Australia, I'll be sure to let you know!
Aonach, it sounds like you've got great friends to play with. The clips on Ben's MySpace page are impressive & inspiring. People who aren't familiar with him might check out http://www.myspace.com/benpaley
Cathy
Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
Mirek Patek - Posted - 01/25/2009: 02:46:57
quote:
Originally posted by mattn
I'd like to try some of the tunes in different time signatures like 9/8 or 11/8, but whenever I try I have trouble latching on to the groove. I want to bob my head or tap a foot or have some physical motion (in addition to the right hand) that gets me moving in time like I would for 4/4 (2/4?) or 3/4 tunes. So this question is directed towards Cathy or anybody else who plays in time signatures like these: how [d]o you feel the pulse of these songs physically?
I divide the compound rhythm to segments of 2 and 3 as described by oldwoodchyckb and Cathy, and then I nod by my head: 2 is down-up and 3 is down-side-up. So the first beat of all 2 and 3 segments is on down. Anther way is fingerpicking on the table: 2 is thumb-index, 3 is thumb-index-middle. What may also help in a long run is to COMPOSE your own melodies in compound rhythms. My own experience: During the semiannual gathering of our local songwriting internet forum (focused on writing the texts) we also try to complete the text by the melody. Last time (in October 2008) one of the tasks was to create "Croatia-flavored folk song" so some of us ended in 5/4,5/4,7/4 rhythm:  Mirek ------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/user/mirekpatekhttp://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjoI like http://www.metronomeonline.com/
CageyK - Posted - 01/26/2009: 20:09:17
Howdy,
So, if 4/4 is bum-ditty bum-ditty (1 2+ 3 4+),
or bum bum bum-ditty (1 2 3 4+)....
is 5/4, bum bum-ditty bum-ditty (1 2 3+ 4 5+) or some variation?
What would an equivalent for 7/8, 9/8, 11/8 be? Or is the bum-ditty not good to use to help learn these different time signatures?
Thanks in advance.
CageyK
Edited by - CageyK on 01/26/2009 20:11:00
Cathy Moore - Posted - 01/26/2009: 22:01:21
Whether the bum-ditty can fit into a pattern depends on the type of rhythm. For example, some people play a 5 that just sounds like 5 even beats instead of 4. You might be able to play that as bum-ditty bum-ditty bum or some combination of that.
The Bulgarian rhythms that I'm more familiar with divide things into 2s and 3s, and the beats are emphasized to mark those distinctions.
It's easier to play longer patterns like 9. The first part of the Rampi Rampi teaching video on my YouTube channel shows how bum-ditties can work in 9/4. In that case, bum-ditties have a big role because the pattern is slow.
For 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, and similar quick rhythms, there's half as much room for a bum-ditty, but they're still in there. I use either "bum" or "ditty" to cover a 2, and a dotted bum to cover the 3. So:
7/8 that's counted 2+2+3 could be "bum ditty bum-and-a"
7/8 that's counted 3+2+2 could be "bum-and-a bum ditty"
9/8 that's counted 2+2+2+3 could be "bum ditty bum bum-and-a"
11/8 that's counted 2+2+3+2+2 could be "bum ditty bum-and-a bum ditty"
and so on.
If you play jigs, you can use the same techniques for playing the 3s in these odd rhythms. For example, you could pluck an open string:
bum-pluck-bum bum ditty = 3+2+2
Or use a hammer on:
bum ditty bum-HO-bum = 2+2+3
A Bulgarian 5 is 2+3 and feels like a severe limp, with the emphasis on the first beat of the 3. I rarely play it, but if I did it would be something like "ditty-bum-and-a" or just "ditty bum (hold)."
I hope this makes sense. It's hard to explain with words.
Cathy
Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
CageyK - Posted - 01/27/2009: 11:04:38
The below is very helpful, Cathy. Thanks.
What do you suggest for playing a "Bum-and-a"? I'd guess an index-thumb(string 5 or dropthumb)-(hammeron or pull-off).
This should be fun exploring these time signatures.
Would you have any suggestions for ways to experiment with familirar s, say Old Joe Clark or Cripple Creek in different time signatures?
Thanks for the below, and thanks in advance for any advice re: the above.
CageyK
quote:
Originally posted by Cathy Moore
Whether the bum-ditty can fit into a pattern depends on the type of rhythm. For example, some people play a 5 that just sounds like 5 even beats instead of 4. You might be able to play that as bum-ditty bum-ditty bum or some combination of that.
The Bulgarian rhythms that I'm more familiar with divide things into 2s and 3s, and the beats are emphasized to mark those distinctions.
It's easier to play longer patterns like 9. The first part of the Rampi Rampi teaching video on my YouTube channel shows how bum-ditties can work in 9/4. In that case, bum-ditties have a big role because the pattern is slow.
For 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, and similar quick rhythms, there's half as much room for a bum-ditty, but they're still in there. I use either "bum" or "ditty" to cover a 2, and a dotted bum to cover the 3. So:
7/8 that's counted 2+2+3 could be "bum ditty bum-and-a"
7/8 that's counted 3+2+2 could be "bum-and-a bum ditty"
9/8 that's counted 2+2+2+3 could be "bum ditty bum bum-and-a"
11/8 that's counted 2+2+3+2+2 could be "bum ditty bum-and-a bum ditty"
and so on.
If you play jigs, you can use the same techniques for playing the 3s in these odd rhythms. For example, you could pluck an open string:
bum-pluck-bum bum ditty = 3+2+2
Or use a hammer on:
bum ditty bum-HO-bum = 2+2+3
A Bulgarian 5 is 2+3 and feels like a severe limp, with the emphasis on the first beat of the 3. I rarely play it, but if I did it would be something like "ditty-bum-and-a" or just "ditty bum (hold)."
I hope this makes sense. It's hard to explain with words.
Cathy
Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
CageyK - Posted - 01/27/2009: 11:05:09
The below is very helpful, Cathy. Thanks.
What do you suggest for playing a "Bum-and-a"? I'd guess an index-thumb(string 5 or dropthumb)-(hammeron or pull-off).
This should be fun exploring these time signatures.
Would you have any suggestions for ways to experiment with familirar s, say Old Joe Clark or Cripple Creek in different time signatures?
Thanks for the below, and thanks in advance for any advice re: the above.
CageyK
quote:
Originally posted by Cathy Moore
Whether the bum-ditty can fit into a pattern depends on the type of rhythm. For example, some people play a 5 that just sounds like 5 even beats instead of 4. You might be able to play that as bum-ditty bum-ditty bum or some combination of that.
The Bulgarian rhythms that I'm more familiar with divide things into 2s and 3s, and the beats are emphasized to mark those distinctions.
It's easier to play longer patterns like 9. The first part of the Rampi Rampi teaching video on my YouTube channel shows how bum-ditties can work in 9/4. In that case, bum-ditties have a big role because the pattern is slow.
For 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, and similar quick rhythms, there's half as much room for a bum-ditty, but they're still in there. I use either "bum" or "ditty" to cover a 2, and a dotted bum to cover the 3. So:
7/8 that's counted 2+2+3 could be "bum ditty bum-and-a"
7/8 that's counted 3+2+2 could be "bum-and-a bum ditty"
9/8 that's counted 2+2+2+3 could be "bum ditty bum bum-and-a"
11/8 that's counted 2+2+3+2+2 could be "bum ditty bum-and-a bum ditty"
and so on.
If you play jigs, you can use the same techniques for playing the 3s in these odd rhythms. For example, you could pluck an open string:
bum-pluck-bum bum ditty = 3+2+2
Or use a hammer on:
bum ditty bum-HO-bum = 2+2+3
A Bulgarian 5 is 2+3 and feels like a severe limp, with the emphasis on the first beat of the 3. I rarely play it, but if I did it would be something like "ditty-bum-and-a" or just "ditty bum (hold)."
I hope this makes sense. It's hard to explain with words.
Cathy
Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
Cathy Moore - Posted - 01/31/2009: 09:26:33
quote:
Originally posted by CageyK
What do you suggest for playing a "Bum-and-a"? I'd guess an index-thumb(string 5 or dropthumb)-(hammeron or pull-off).
It would depend on what notes you were trying to play. I almost always use the frailing finger (index for me) on the bum. The rest could be combinations of hammer-ons, slides, pull-offs, open-string plucks, or the thumb. Or, actually, nothing--you could just play the "bum" and let it sink in. Also, in a quick 7/8, it can be more effective to sound only the "bum" and the "a." quote:
Would you have any suggestions for ways to experiment with familirar s, say Old Joe Clark or Cripple Creek in different time signatures?
For me, it's easiest to put a 4/4 tune into 7 (rather than 5, 9, 11, etc.). For example, Old Joe Clark could become a 2+2+3 pattern like this: Used .... to ... live on the 2 ........... 2 ........ 3 moun- ... tain .... top (and-a) 2 ........... 2 ........ 3 One approach is to listen to the MP3s I linked to earlier in the thread and try to absorb the rhythms as much as possible so you feel the difference between a 2 and a 3, and then you can start to feel how a familiar melody can be warped just a little to turn it into 2s and 3s. I've been out for a long time with a respiratory infection and huge business project, but I hope to try to explain this with a video when I'm back in action. Cathy Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorldIllinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
Edited by - Cathy Moore on 01/31/2009 09:27:30
Cathy Moore - Posted - 01/31/2009: 09:30:47
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
Really looking forward to meet you there.
Thanks, Mirek. I'm looking forward to meeting you and to having some undoubtedly wide-ranging jams. Cathy
brokenstrings - Posted - 01/31/2009: 10:29:35
For 7/8, you can emphasize 1-2-3 4-5 6-7 with a chord. That's what I did for "Yerakina" on the harp. You can do something similar on the banjo--not with chords or bum-ditties but by playing three notes + two notes + two notes. Not the notes of the melody but of the chords, a kind of pattern picking.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
jojo25 - Posted - 01/31/2009: 12:04:10
with all the bum ditty talk
what about
do wah diddy diddy bum diddy do
Don''t forget to play all of the quasihemidemisemiquavers!!
Drop thumbs, not bombs
Joe
GerryH - Posted - 01/31/2009: 14:24:52
Thanks. Cathy for being a skillful and willing teacher! May your tribe increase.
GerryH
Cathy Moore - Posted - 02/01/2009: 17:26:21
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
The 7/8 meter of the song is apparent link to the Jewish menorah (seven-branched candelabrum), because the story is about the imaginary dialogue with (now late) grandmother, who survived the holocaust and talked about it to her grandson during his childhood.
That's a very cool reason to choose 7/8. Thanks for posting the tune and the background for it. Cathy
Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/01/2009: 18:15:37
quote:
"Would you have any suggestions for ways to experiment with familirar s, say Old Joe Clark or Cripple Creek in different time signatures?"
Putting tunes into odd time signatures can be a lot of fun. Like Cathy suggests, get the time signatures down well - listen to lots of Greek, Bulgarian etc music. Get it so you can pound out the rhythm. For tunes, I would suggest starting with simple ones like Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star or Three Blind Mice, they sound great in 7/8!
There's a recording I made of Old Joe Clark in 7/8 a few years ago at the bottom of this page: http://hunterrobertson.com/harkframe.html
The trickiest part is two notes played in succession by the index finger - a glide from one string to another.
Hunter
Old Time Music for Body & Soul - www.hunterrobertson.com
Edited by - Hunter Robertson on 02/01/2009 18:58:45
strumn1 - Posted - 02/02/2009: 13:33:36
I agree that Cathy has done soooo much to help banjo players here on BH and through youtube. Having access to the tabs and video has helped a novice like me tremendously. And I must say Cathy, you could have shaved off about 20 years on your BH profile. You sure don't look it! Thanks for all your help, and please keep posting.
derwood400 - Posted - 02/04/2009: 15:32:13
Matt, I know this doesen't help you at all, but I just wanted to thank you for introducing me to Cathy's Site. What a fantastic resource. I can't believe I never knew about it. Also thank you Cathy for all the work you've put into it.
Darren
Cathy Moore - Posted - 02/05/2009: 10:20:27
Thanks to everyone for the kind words. I hope to get back into doing videos soon.
Cathy
clawhammermike - Posted - 02/05/2009: 23:05:54
I like this worldly topic. I feel like I am more hip and in the know by just reading it. I am just too stupid to count higher then 4. Sometimes I even get stuck on three if you know what I mean 
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