|
Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.
MountainBanjo - Posted - 10/31/2008: 10:09:03
I'm finally to the point where I can learn by ear if I listen long enough. I'm determined to learn 90% of all my tunes by ear now, referring to tab only when necessary or after i already know a tune to see how someone else did it. My goal is to be able to pick tunes up on the fly, eventually.
So what I am doing of course is listening to the melody of the fiddle and figuring that out, and throwing in brushes and such when it "feels" right, whatever the heck that means. But doing it this way I seem to be coming up with fairly notey versions, and I'm not striving to be a melodic player. To make a long story short when I want to leave notes out I dont always know what to put in. Brush strokes dont always seem to the the answer. You would think this would be easier than putting in more notes but for some reason it isnt.
Cathy Moore - Posted - 10/31/2008: 11:08:50
Congratulations on developing the ability to learn by ear--now you can learn anything you want!
I have a similar approach as yours--I learn a fairly notey version of the tune, and then I start deciding which notes are truly worthy and cut the rest. Obviously, this will be a matter of personal taste. In case it's helpful, here's what I cut:
1. "Dit" notes. I'm a big fan of M-skips because they simultaneously syncopate and clear up a tune. Instead of playing the "dit" note, I just do a sort of "air" note with my frailing finger, then hit the 5th string as usual. So:
bum pa dit ty becomes bum pa __ ty
bum __ dit ty becomes bum __ __ ty
2. Any tricky notes that mess up my drive. However, some tricky notes are worth the effort and should be saved because they're unique to the tune, add an emotional edge, or whatever. Practice usually makes them work. If after diligent practice they still interfere with my drive, they're history.
3. "Pa" notes. Those are less likely to get cut, because if I cut too many of them, I end up with a plodding "bum __ dit ty"
4. "Bum ditty" fillers, like when the last measure of a tune is just one note. Instead of playing "bum __ dit ty bum __ dit ty" on that one note, I just play a decisive "bum" and let it really sink in.
5. "Filler" notes that I'm tempted to leave in place just to show everyone I can play them. For example, cutting 17 triplets down to 3 is usually best for the tune and drive, in my opinion.
I tend to avoid brushes because I like to syncopate, and brushes can make a tune seem too square for me.
Thanks for the interesting question. There are a bajillion possible approaches to this, so I hope there will be a lot of answers.
Cathy
Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com
Edited by - Cathy Moore on 10/31/2008 11:11:41
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/31/2008: 11:10:48
You might try learning your "notey" version, then tabbing it out and looking for ways to strip it down to essentials. Or find a recording with the banjo prominent but not melodic and try to copy that line.
My natural tendancy was to go melodic not long after I learned how to frail. IT seemed natural and I had the left hand to do it. It was after several years of playing melodic that I started listening to old time again and changed my style entirely. Since I know others who went the same route I king of wonder f it isn't a natural progression for some players - particualrly ones with well trained left hands.
On a more promotional note you might try comparing your arrangements with those in Rocket Science Banjo. Not too many notes and not too few - they are just right. Actually I try my best to come up with the easiest way to do a tune and that usually means not so notey.
If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost a couple mouse clicks. Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 10/31/2008 11:14:56
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/31/2008: 11:46:16
You may not want to use too many brushes.
Use all of the melody you can. Maintain the rhythm through accenting.
Use a good amount of 5th-string and typical left-hand techniques so as to
keep your playing sounding "traditional". This way you will have settings that
are melodically developed, yet incorporate a lot of rhythm and sound like CH banjo.
Easier said than done I know. Alas, I am a cyber-dunce otherwise I could video some stuff.
If you're ever in the Portland, OR area, give me a call.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
Pat-C - Posted - 10/31/2008: 12:04:10
My advice would be to shift your focus from the melody and pay more attention to the structure of the song. You don't decorate a room before the walls go up.
Here is an old workshop I knocked out last year that goes into how frailing works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tirXiegHVzI
-Patrick
Edited by - Pat-C on 10/31/2008 12:35:29
tombriarhopper - Posted - 10/31/2008: 12:08:07
Do what comes natural! When you get up on the stage, and the crowd is yellin' and your finger's are sweatin', you are going to revert to what you do naturally. And remember...if you don't break a string, you are not having a good enough time.
Tom Briarhopper
http://www.wbtbriarhoppers.blogspot.com
BANJOJUDY - Posted - 10/31/2008: 15:16:00
But isn't the melody of the song the structure with which you need to work?
To me, it is pretty much the same. Learn the tune - the melody in your head - then play it on the banjo. Then look at some tabs - get other ideas how you can simplify and/or embellish what you have created.
If you keep doing this method, you might achieve your goal and playing the tune you want to - but, I am still trying to do that using the above, but being blonde.....
Judy
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_
Don''t miss Mike Iverson''s performance in
Albuquerque November 19, 2008.
Also...a clawhammer workshop for
intermediate players is scheduled for
November 23, 2008. Email inquiry@siliconheights.com
for details or to register
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/31/2008: 15:56:20
quote:
Originally posted by MountainBanjo
So what I am doing of course is listening to the melody of the fiddle and figuring that out, and throwing in brushes and such when it "feels" right, whatever the heck that means.
As far as fiddle tunes go, there are normally too many notes in them to get each and every one and still have room for 5th string notes, bum-ditties, etc. that make your playing sound like trad CH as opposed to melodic CH. In effect, you have to make room by dropping some of the notes of the fiddle melody. Now, you have no doubt noted that there can be different fiddle versions of the same tune. Each fiddler may play the tune a little differently, but it is still recognizable as the same tune. The thing that makes this possible is that there is a set of key notes that define the tune. It is this basic melody that you need to identify and build your banjo setting up from. Although fiddle tunes are often so notey as to be nearly exclusively made up of 1/8th notes, this basic melody may often be made up of only 1/4 or even 1/2 notes. A melody this basic gives plenty of room to throw in the typical CH moves. As I was saying above, you may want to limit your brushes. This is because the melody notes often fall on the 2 and 4 beats (in 4/4 time), and need to be articulated by a single-string note. If you have a longer interval to fill in, a brush may serve the purpose. In the event you need to retain more of the melody for the tune to be recognizable, you have hammers, pulls, drop-thumbs, etc., at your disposal. In the end, though you have the technical ability to play *all* of the notes, it is your own personal sense of taste that tells you how much of the fiddle melody to retain and where you want to fit into the melodic vs. trad continuum. As a basic rule, as far as trad CH, it is better to err on the side of simplicity. You've come upon one of the main differences between melodic and trad CH. Melodic CH tends to be technically difficult but conceptually simple. Trad CH just the opposite. R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile" Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo **************************************************** "Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 10/31/2008 16:06:44
maryzcox - Posted - 10/31/2008: 17:26:51
Try leaving spaces of silence between notes. I think it is easiest for a beginner to hear that on a waltz. 
Count in your head (1,2.3, 1,2, 3)--play the melody notes--but just leave a silence on the other beats--you can strike the air around the strings if you need to--just don't brush or chunk or anything on the extra beats.
This will make your waltz sound pretty and airy instead of that chunk, chunk, chunk.
Once you can hear the spaces in a waltz--you'll pick right up on other tunes as well.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Mary Z. Cox
www.maryzcox.com
If you suspect you need a new banjo--you do. Trust your musical instincts. If a banjo calls to you to buy it, don''t fight destiny. It was meant to be. :)
http://oldbluebus.blogspot.com/2008...a-banjo.html
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/31/2008: 20:41:53
RD Lunceford said:
"Melodic CH tends to be technically difficult but conceptually simple. Trad CH just the opposite."
That's yet another remark that gets to the heart of the matter and might indeed be the reason why so many banjo players go through a "melodic" phase.
I first learned a lot of old time tunes from my ex-brother-in-law, but when he moved away I almost immediately went melodic - it was a contradance northern style area and I don't think I could visualize playing a tune without getting as much of the melody as possible. The main difference between my playing and that of people like Ken Perlman and Howie Bursen (besides ability) was that I didn't believe in attampting to translate the fiddle decorations - especially not Irish fiddle decorations. I prefered substituting banjoistic decorations, quite frequently on different notes.
Slowly over the next few years my wife converted me back to traditional CH, mostly through her taste in recordings. She was just starting on the fiddle and listening to a lot of the "old" guys some of who had banjo accompaniment. I slowly came around to realizing that I didn't need all that melody, and didn't even Want a lot of it. In my own glacial way I finally moved "past" melodic - not that there's anything wrong with that!
For a while I only could imagine two styles of clawhammer "Melodic" and "Bum Did-dy". I easily gravitated to melodic, until I was able to conceptualize the banjo as a partner to the fiddle - instead of either back-up or carbon copy. It was a long strange trip but when I came out on the other end it almost felt like a conversion of the (CAN'T FIND A WORD ACCEPTABLE TO ALL THE MODERATORS) kind. I guess it was an epiphanimous moment.
If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost a couple mouse clicks. Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/31/2008: 22:47:56
I had a somewhat similar experience to the one that Tony (OWC) describes. Though I was never a full-on melodic player,
there came a point in my playing where I consciously took steps to simplify what I was doing. Initially this consisted of reducing the amount of drop-thumbing I was doing. I probably went a little too far because at one point I only drop-thumbed if I couldn't get a note anyother way. Now I use more for various reasons. This probably sounds funny coming from someone who once wrote a BNL column called "Drop-Thumb Banjo" and recorded a CD called "Drop-Thumb",
but it's all about personal taste and the way we hear the tunes.
It reminds me of one of Tony's sage pieces of advice. "If you don't know a technique you can't use it, but if you know a technique, you can *choose* not to use it." That's a paraphrase so I hope it accurately captures his meaning.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/01/2008: 15:10:36
Certainly at least as close as I would come up with RD.
My left hand arthritus now limits my use of melody on drop thumb notes (I just can't do as much fretting as it takes with what amounts to 2.25 fingers) but there is also an almost instinctive desire to simplify too. I think a lot of that has to do with playing with my wife. She is a complete primitivist - much more interested in what a lot of people sneeringly call the "squeaky old men" than the Fraley or Arthur Smith types. Her style works best with a spare sound from the banjo
If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost a couple mouse clicks. Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/01/2008: 17:25:15
R.D. wrote: "The thing that makes this possible is that there is a set of key notes that define the tune. It is this basic melody that you need to identify and build your banjo setting up from... Although fiddle tunes are often so notey as to be nearly exclusively made up of 1/8th notes, this basic melody may often be made up of only 1/4 or even 1/2 notes.
I think that is the heart of the matter, whether you are playing clawhammer, two finger style, or three finger style, as I do. You have to listen enough to the tune first, and truly internalize that core melody that is the very essence of the tune. Most of the fiddle 1/8 notes, even though often linear in nature, are still embellishments of that elemental melody. As R.D. says, that is why you can hear so many different versions of a tune, and still recognize it. It may be that this simpler melody represents the strain of some earlier song that the fiddle tune evolved from, or it may have started as a simple theme fragment that sprouted from deep inside of that first musician to play it. Whatever that first source, it is the crux of the thing, the root and trunk of the tree. While the mind speaks in eight notes, the soul speaks in half notes. If the soul cannot hear itself, the performance fails. It is the application of the ornament that represents much of what we would call a musicians style, but if the ornament does not well serve the melody, if the branches are not well connected to the roots, it isn't music. I am still very fond of a quote from Antoine de St. Exupery: "perfection is not achieved when there is no more to be added, perfection is achieved when there is no more to be taken away."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don''t like to play it like he did. I try to play it the way I play it" - fiddler Lester McCumbers, interviewed by Erynn Marshall
Check out my webpage.
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 11/01/2008 17:28:59
haiku - Posted - 11/01/2008: 18:34:53
The deeper I go into Old-time music, the more I like non-melodic....fiddlers
To stick with the topic: just what R.D and Don said.
Figure out a melody made with quarter or eight notes.
that's what I liked in Dan levenson's Clawhammer from scratch: stripping down the melody till it's bare-boned.
When adding brushed, try to do 2-note brushes - ie 1st and 2 string only: it's light but still add flavor from pure single-string playing.
At least that's what I do...
-----
Folk music is not a crime!
http://www.myspace.com/hobohaiku
Edited by - haiku on 11/01/2008 18:38:13
vernob - Posted - 11/02/2008: 06:01:50
This thread is yet another reason why I like the BHO. Lots of good info here. I'll add my two cents. If you listen to an old friend of mine, Dan Gellert, you hear him leave notes out, let notes ring a bit longer before hitting the next so it adds syncopation, adding notes that lead to the next melody note, and even leave out a lyric or two when singing. It's fascinating. He's a revivalist who sounds like someone who was rediscovered. I try to steal, er learn from Dan whenever I can.
Bruce Vernon
"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain
"Don''t worry about mistakes. There aren''t any." - Miles Davis
roger martin - Posted - 11/02/2008: 06:36:38
I'm a sneaky kinda guy. As I play I leave notes out on purpose sometimes,then when I miss a note by accident it looks like I did that on purpose too lol
I had to play this way now due to a "minor" stroke a couple of years ago. I thought I was done playing at all and gave up for a year. But I felt the whole time as if i had let the stroke beat me. I picked the guitar and banjo up again and was able to at least partially train my right hand to cooperate more, or less.
I aint Earl or Bela now days, but then I wasnt all that good before the stroke either LOL
Roger MArtin
KI4PRK - Posted - 11/02/2008: 07:57:18
Certain fiddle tunes just work best with clawhammer/index lead 2finger, because of their note layout. Others, such as the show pieces, Northern fiddling, and very melodic tunes are difficult, but a good chunk of them can be played without breaking any trad. rules (although you may be going against tradition — god forbid). The trick is to use a lot of pulloffs, hammerons, the occasional slide and liberal drop thumbing. And of course be very knowledgable on your tunings. Changing the 5th string can give you an extra melody note. And one tuning that's traditionally used for one song may work great for another tune. The best tuning site I know: http://www.zeppmusic.com/banjo/aktuning.htm . This has pretty much every tuning you'll ever need to use.
73, Brennen
Kate Somerville - Posted - 11/02/2008: 13:41:32
quote:
Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford
quote:
Originally posted by MountainBanjo
So what I am doing of course is listening to the melody of the fiddle and figuring that out, and throwing in brushes and such when it "feels" right, whatever the heck that means.
In the end, though you have the technical ability to play *all* of the notes, it is your own personal sense of taste that tells you how much of the fiddle melody to retain and where you want to fit into the melodic vs. trad continuum. As a basic rule, as far as trad CH, it is better to err on the side of simplicity.
Terrific topic, MountainBanjo, since that is right where I am at too. I can feel good about being able to play my latest favorite tune note for tricky note with pull offs and hammerons albeit not as fast as I would like. However, though I feel accomplished, it seems rigid, notey, and mechanical, the reason I avoided tabs. I find now that I can figure out myself how to play any tune. But the banjo sound I like is bouncy, chords up and down the neck grounded with counter melody and solid rhythm, if that makes sense. I think I will try to limit the notes and try for ...simplicity? That is hard to do. Kate
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 11/02/2008: 14:11:46
Consider playing over a drone (that is if you hit multiple strings, let them be open strings) and limiting your use of chords (i.e. harmonically developed ones) unless they are necessary to retain the character of the melody.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
Feo - Posted - 11/03/2008: 06:52:48
Vernob is right, this is a great forum for banjo minds to come together ..seems like alot of us learn the same lessons even if we
strike off as loners ,going in our own directions .... lots of good knowledge for upcoming players to study here.
"Melodic CH tends to be technically difficult but conceptually simple. Trad CH just the opposite." I like that ...
"That's yet another remark that gets to the heart of the matter and might indeed be the reason why so many banjo players go through a "melodic" phase. " Yup, I did that too ..
"The main difference between my playing and that of people like Ken Perlman and Howie Bursen (besides ability) was that I didn't believe in attampting to translate the fiddle decorations - especially not Irish fiddle decorations. I prefered substituting banjoistic decorations, quite frequently on different notes. "
Yes, the banjo is a different instrument then the fiddle and is at it's best being played like a banjo and not a fiddle , IMHO .
Don Borchelt's observation that alot of notes the fiddle plays are melodic fillers and decorations is true .... contest and Irish fiddlers take the decorations to greatest extremes , ... but even in old timey fiddling is filler too ,to a lesser extent, and that is why fiddlers can come up with so many variations of a basic melody . So, just as a fiddle should perhaps not try to exactly copy a wind instrument ,the fiddle can do things that the wind instruments can't do, maybe a banjo player shouldn't try to exactly copy the fillers and decorations of the fiddle ....because the banjo can do things that the fiddle can't do .... I think the best players of fiddle and banjo use the abilities their instruments and don't worry about exactly copying sounds of another instrument ..
I think the idea of distilling the core of the fiddle tune and adding your banjoistic decorations and banjo-beatisms is the way to go.
" In my own glacial way I finally moved "past" melodic - not that there's anything wrong with that! "
Ha, I do alot of my changes in a glacial way too!
In all the tunes I write out now, or go back and edit old tunes I wrote out years ago, I find that I am always taking out
filler notes now .... write 'em simplier and then let the improv happen when I actually perform the tune if I am in a mind
to fancy things up alittle. Alot depends on the tempos of the situation ...if you're playing with speed freaks then you have you
play the simpler version of the tunes.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/03/2008: 14:45:49
I've run across an interesting phenomenon of late. There are some melodic pieces that simply can't be turned into whatever you want to call the far less melodic approach most of us seem to take.
"The Devil's Dream" is a piece that I can find no way to de-melodicize without destroying the integrity of the melody. All the notes ae necesssary to the tune. Needless to say the banjo could back up a fiddle playing the tune without at least half those notes, but the end result, played as a banjo solo, becomes too generic, too bland. I remember reading a banjo solo book by one of the best players I know of and being struck by how useless his settings would be for a beginner. They would only be rational when played against the melody line.
This is, I think why so many written banjo arrangements come out "Melodic". It is far easier to read the melody than it would be to read what the writer tends to actually do.
I feel my own tab writing was far to melodic still (after 30 or so years of playing what the Melodic guys call "That southern stuff" - at least when they are being generous. So a couple years ago I started a project to read my way through a whole raft of tab books to see what worked. End result -- RD Lunceford's "Drop Thumb" and "Cotton Blosson" were the two books that really caught the flavour of non_melodic playing the best. Some others were close - Brad Leftwich's tab were pretty good if one was already well aware of Round Peak playiing - but were hard to read - to much "stuff" making the note stems hard to find etc.
I found that with Art Rosenbaum's tabs - I couldn't get much out of them unless I went back and forth between the tab and the album. A nice try but best for more advanced players (this only applies to the Clawhammer style tunes in Rosenbaum's books - I ignored the up picked tunes for this study).
Most tab was either hard to read, hard to fathom, or just plain erratic, and there was a whole class of tabs that just seemed to be a bad idea. I see no point in going over the same tunes again and again learning every figure and technical trick over and over. Once a figure is learned it should be a matter of the player using it where HE feel comfy with it. That's how a player develops his own style.
So I patterned my new tabs on RDs tabbing - clean and simple with the "melody" promenent but not in competition with the fiddle. I try to make my tabs readable as banjo solos that would also work as string band arrangements. I rarely make more than one version of a tune - resering that for illustrating very different styles of playing.
Since the idea is to be able to play with others I don't stick with one tuning but use all the common tunings (that I use) and tab in all the common keys - sometimes that means as many as 4 tabs of one tune (I have one tune with two G versions, a C version and a D version). Since I publish on cyber paper, I have the "space" to do such things.
And along the same lines all of my tabs are written in Tabledit - which can be read by the computer's MIDI generator - meaning that the tabs can be played and read at the same time. Rhythmic oddities and odd harmonies are sounded so teh learned has the change to watch and hear the tune at any speed for any length of time. Unlike a DVD of someone playing the tune, MIDI can play until they shut off your power for non payment.
The other advantage of MIDI is "Learning By Ear" - I'll bet you were wondering if I'd ever get around to the point of this post. Having the MIDI play the tabs means you can simply listen to the notes at whatever speed you need to get them right. YOu can play along, you can select an area and haev the MIDI play it over and over while you try to catch the notes - then give it a look-see to check out if I might be recommenting a different left hand position. Ther ia much anyone can learn from a tab - without sitting there playing it through.
So this whole rambling diatribe is in actually a sidewise in time ad for RSB -- which is free - grattis, nothing down and nothing on account. I think it has a lot of information and technique to go with the tabs, and the tabs are completely "Ear" friendly.
It is also an ad for the incomplete project "300 Tabs By The Author Of Rocket Science Banjo". This is a subscription project you can read about at the RSB website or in your copy of RSB - Look for The PITCH! Ther are curently 100 tunes available in the series - this is above and beyond the roughly 40 tunes in the book. And it contains a full on Melodic version of the tune I can't strip down "The Devil's Dream" Guaranteed to tie your left hand into serious knots.
If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost a couple mouse clicks. Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 11/03/2008: 16:16:44
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
I've run across an interesting phenomenon of late. There are some melodic pieces that simply can't be turned into whatever you want to call the far less melodic approach most of us seem to take.
All too true. Without quoting Tony's well thought out post in more depth, his point about versons that make sense only in the light of the complete melody line is dead center. I'll say that I think Tony's on-line offerings are unparallelled, and a magnificent contribution to the banjo literature. For anyone who is unacquainted with what Tony has made available, go there right away- you will be pleasantly impressed by the knowledge and generosity of the author, not to mention the material itself!!! R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile" Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo **************************************************** "Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
clawhammermike - Posted - 11/03/2008: 16:34:42
I played an R.D. lunceford track last night on my radio show and whatever notes he's leaving out are good ones.
Alan Friend - Posted - 11/03/2008: 18:36:06
I remember John Herrmann once commenting that he may leave notes out when playing with a fiddler, but that you may not even notice the absence of some of his banjo notes because the fiddle fills in the gaps.
Alan
www.alanfriendmusic.com
------------------------
CD "Had a Dog" available at www.cdbaby.com
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/03/2008: 19:36:34
Old woodchuck wrote: "There are some melodic pieces that simply can't be turned into whatever you want to call the far less melodic approach most of us seem to take. "
There are lots of tunes like Devils Dream, Rickett's Hornpipe, Temperance Reel, and the like, which have very dense melodies that need a very melodic approach. In New England contra dancing, these types of tunes predominate, and a melodic approach is certainly essential if the tune is to be recognized. Furthermore, these are the kind of tunes that have generally been passed down from one generation of musicians to another through published notation, and in performance are as likely to be accompanied by a piano as a banjo or guitar, with the music laid out in front of the "orchestra" on music stands. There is also far less variation from one fiddler to another, as the melody of the tune is relatively set in stone, or perhaps I should say ink. I wasn't even thinking about that repertoire in this thread, I guess I just lost interest in that kind of music a long time ago. I admit I haven't played Devil's Dream in years.
For a long time, I have just found the fiddle music of West Virginia, Kentucky, East Tennessee, and Western North Carolina a lot more interesting than the tunes more associated with New Hampshire and Vermont. The first fiddlers I played music with as a teenager in Cincinnati were transplants from these Appalachian areas, and right away to my chagrin I discovered that they played almost none of the tunes I had found in my copy of Coles 1000 Fiddle Tunes. They played tunes like Sally Goodin, Ragtime Annie, Bonaparte's Retreat, Red Wing, Lost Indian, Leather Britches, and Bill Cheatum, none of which are in Coles. With these kinds of tunes, as fiddler Lester McCumbers remarked to Erynn Marshall, "You can hunt this country over and you won't find nary two fellers that plays the same tune exactly alike." I discovered that if I wanted to play along, these tunes that had the wind of the mountains blowing right through them, I had to learn to use my ears more than my eyes, and I had to be able to hear right through to the very heart and soul of the tune.
Now I know that you can find fiddlers in Kentucky that play Devil's Dream and Rickett's, but I think the basic generalization is still valid. I think Feo said it well: "...maybe a banjo player shouldn't try to exactly copy the fillers and decorations of the fiddle ....because the banjo can do things that the fiddle can't do .... I think the best players of fiddle and banjo use the abilities (of) their instruments and don't worry about exactly copying sounds of another instrument ..." I think so.
- Don Borchelt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don''t like to play it like he did. I try to play it the way I play it" - fiddler Lester McCumbers, interviewed by Erynn Marshall
Check out my webpage.
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 11/04/2008 03:21:31
brokenstrings - Posted - 11/03/2008: 20:58:22
RD, I've been trying to work on exactly that--what is the essence of a tune?--and have come to no better method than picking the whole dang thing out note by note and trying to go from there. With mixed success. OWC, interesting that you say some tunes just plain don't lend themselves to the "skeletal tune" idea.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 11/04/2008: 00:59:47
You know, there is also an opposite situation to having a complex tune that needs to be simplified-
that of a simple tune that takes some real artistry to make sound good.
I once mentioned "Ida Red" to the late legendary Ozarks fiddler, Bob Holt. His reply was; "That's a good tune, but I can't get much music out of it." In my own case, I've never been able to come up with a setting of "Sally Goodin' " that pleased me. Frustrating as it was my Dad's favorite tune. Dan Gellert's setting of "Sally Goodin' " on the "Clawhammer Banjo Gathering" CD is pure genius though. His playing truly amazes me.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 11/04/2008 01:01:20
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/04/2008: 03:31:20
R.D. wrote: "You know, there is also an opposite situation to having a complex tune that needs to be simplified-
that of a simple tune that takes some real artistry to make sound good."
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that a tune should be played stripped of all ornament. Only that you need to get inside the tune, and get the tune inside you, in order to know how to add ornament that makes the tune come alive, rather than smothered.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don''t like to play it like he did. I try to play it the way I play it" - fiddler Lester McCumbers, interviewed by Erynn Marshall
Check out my webpage.
Kate Somerville - Posted - 11/04/2008: 03:40:26
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
... you need to get inside the tune, and get the tune inside you, in order to know how to add ornament that makes the tune come alive, rather than smothered.
EXACTLY! YES! Kate
roger martin - Posted - 11/04/2008: 07:46:53
When I 1st picked up a guitar way back when, I was 13.I didnt know anybody who played by reading music and had never heard of tab.
Everybody I knew just listened to the dang song and then ,just played it.
I still do it the same way.
I'll listen to the song ,play it in the same key as the recording, and listen for parts that I'm not getting right and fix it ,or decide if I like it the way it was and do it that way.
I'm not much for sitting down and copying a song.I never try to play a song just like the recording ,but simply play MY version.
Roger MArtin
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 11/04/2008: 09:00:57
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that a tune should be played stripped of all ornament. Only that you need to get inside the tune, and get the tune inside you, in order to know how to add ornament that makes the tune come alive, rather than smothered.
I agree 1000%. "Getting inside the tune" is a really effective way of expressing it. My problem is that in a handful of cases (re: Sally Goodin') I've never been able to get it to come alive, and for me there is an opposite set of tunes that are simple and I apparently yet lack the artistry to make them work. Even after 40 years playing I've still got stuff to learn!!! R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile" Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo **************************************************** "Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/04/2008: 14:52:48
I like to strip tunes down and then re-ornament them as I go. I doubt I play any tune twice through exactly the same.
The fact is that I usually do the "stripping" in my head the first couple time I hear a tune. Then it takes a couple times through to get the notes right on my left hand, and then I start to vary things. I like to add a lot of slides (both up and down, and do some fancy double pulls etc.
This is why when the question "how many tunes" comes up I say "Either all of them or none of them". This isn't really true as there are some tunes that leave me shaking my head (5 Miles to Town for example) and other tunes that it takes me more time to catch because that are so crooked (Jeff Sturgeon). And there are the tunes i have played so much I "know" them immediately. But that is the general situation with me and a lot of musicians I know. I think it is a pretty golden position, and one that can only be reached by knowing a lot of tunes
If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost a couple mouse clicks. Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 11/04/2008: 15:05:51
Don,
I agree - and in fact have not tabbed out either Ricketts or Temperance for this project - even though I have tabbed them in the past (I think both are in my 1980 book "10 Cents a Dance".
I figure that when I reach the proper point I'll add a section of contradance (aka melodic) arrangements to the collection. Or if i get any demand for that type of tune I'll do it sooner. Looking through my "melodic tabs" I have tunes that never use the 5th string except to snag off a melody note. Now That's Melodic!
In fact the arrangement of Devil's Dream in my new project predates my contradance days. I was very influenced by a record titled "Folk Banjo Styles" and eventually made clawhammer arrangements of two of Eric Weissberg's Melodic Bluegrass arrangements ("Flop Eared Mule" and the banjo duet with Marshall Brickman "The Devil's Dream"). I tried talking a friend into doing a banjo duet on the latter and I would have taken the harmony part, but he never could get his fingers sorted out, or so he told me. He was a Scruggs style player and I tend to think Melodic Bluegrass made his teeth grind.
If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost a couple mouse clicks. Download your free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which are up to about 40 now.
Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site full of interesting banjo material
bdavidoff - Posted - 11/24/2008: 04:09:53
At the risk of being irrelevant, this topic reminded me of Mississippi John Hurt, who is a master at leaving out notes. The notes he leaves out smack you upside the head.
|
RSS Feeds
