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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Rolls with eighth-note pinches


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Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/19/2008:  12:06:44


According to my understanding in the traditional Scruggs style the pinch is usually played as a pair of QUARTER notes and therefore breaks the stream of eight notes roll. But one could imagine also the eight-note rolls where eight-notes pinch is incorporated without following pause - here is the example:


 G               C               D7              G
|--0-------0---0|--2-------2---2|--0-------0---0|--0-------0---0|
|------0--------|------1--------|------1--------|------0--------|
|0-----0-----0--|0-----0-----0--|2-----2-----2--|0-----0-----0--|
|0-----------0--|2-----------2--|0-----------0--|0-----------0--|
|----0---0------|----0---0------|----0---0------|----0---0------|
 |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_|
 I M T M T M I M I M T M T M I M I M T M T M I M I M T M T M I M
 T     I     T   T     I     T   T     I     T   T     I     T
Could you please point me to some players (songs/records/tabs) who use this kind of uninterrupted rolls with pinches?

Thanks
Mirek

http://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo


Edited by - Mirek Patek on 07/15/2008 03:08:37

Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/19/2008:  23:07:03


Mirek: Years ago I used to use insert pinches like that in my melodic playing, which I referred to as "double stops." Probably the most extreme example is a setting I came up with for the B part of the reel called the Rights of Man, in G tuning:



-------------|-9-----9--------4--------
----------10-|----10-------5--------10-
-------------|-11----------------------
-------------|-------------------------
--------0----|----------0--------0-----
     

   triplet                       
--|-10-9---9----------------|-0-----0-----0-----0-----
--|-----10-------------7----|-------------7-----7-----
--|-9------------9--------9-|----------9-----9--------
--|-------------------------|----7--------------------
--|-----------0-----0-------|----------------------0--
    P             

   triplet
--|-9-7---------7----------|-------------------------
--|-----7----7-----------7-|----0-----8-----0-----10-
--|-------7-----7----------|-9-----9-----11----11----
--|------------------------|-9-----10----9-----12----
--|-------------------0----|-------------------------
    P   

   triplet                  dbl triplets
--|-------------10-------4-|---4---4---0--------0-----
--|---10------9--------5---|-----5---5----0-----7-----
--|-----11-----------------|--------------------------
--|------------------------|--------------------------
--|-0------0--------0------|-0---------------0-----0-
                     


--|-2-----------2----------|-------------------------
--|-0-----------0----------|-------------------------
--|------------------------|-------------------------
--|-------2-----2----------|-------------------------
--|------------------------|------------------------


I have posted a segment taken from a very old casette tape, with this B part, although it is a little hard to hear. Back then, I also played a version of Joplin's The Entertainer, with a lot of melodic double stops, and I have posted recording that I found from another old practice tape. Again, a little scratchy. Also, listen to my break for "My Creole Belle," posted at my website (http://www.banjr.com/audio.htm), and Wind That Shakes the Barley, particularly the B part. Over the years, as I slowly started to use melodic phrasing more sparingly in my playing, and began gravitating back to using more right hand patterns, I got almost completely away from double stopping in my melodic phrasing. Now, however, I do it a fair amount with my pattern picking, although much more sparingly than you are showing in your example above, and more for rhythm and accent. See my tab for Wildwood Flower at my website. I'll post an MP3 of that here on my homepage, too, so you can hear it.

- Don Borchelt

http://www.banjr.com


Edited by - Don Borchelt on 03/20/2008 00:40:45

RyanHerr - Posted - 03/20/2008:  00:54:27


I'm looking forward to trying out these adventurous tabs.

In the tab book for "Solo Banjo Works" Tony Trischka gives tab for an unrecorded slow variation of June Apple that uses pinches/double stops. It's basically this eerie beautiful descending harmony line underneath the melody.

-Ryan.

RyanHerr - Posted - 03/20/2008:  00:59:26


One more thing:

Another way to get "uninterrupted rolls with pinches" is to use left-hand techniques, for example:

WAYFARING STRANGER

Right hand:

|-----M---------M-|
|-----I-----I-----|
|-----T-x-----T---|
|-T-x-----T-------|
|-----------------|
  1   2   3 & 4 &


but add a pull-off after the first note, and a hammer-on after the pinch.

So we'll have:

Dm
|-----0---------0-|
|-----1h3---1-----|
|-----2-------2---|
|-3p0-----0-------|
|-----------------|



Gm
|-----0h2-------0-|
|-----3-----3-----|
|-----3-------3---|
|-3p0-----0-------|
|-----------------|



A7
|-----2---------2-|
|-----0h2---2-----|
|-----0-------0---|
|-2p0-----2-------|
|-----------------|


And it's put together like this:

I am a [Dm]poor wayfaring stranger

a travellin [Gm]through this world of [Dm]woe

but there's no [Dm]sickness, no toil or danger

in that bright [Gm]world [A7]...to which I go


I'm going [Gm]there to see my [Dm]mother

I'm going [Gm]there no more to [A7]roam

I'm just a [Dm]going over Jordan

I'm just a [Gm]go- [A7]-ing over [Dm]home


(Using the same 3 chords in the chorus instead of Bb-F-Bb-A gives it more of a pseudo-lonesome sound to my ears.)

I have an mp3 of this on my website (if you can call my website a website.)

-Ryan.


Edited by - RyanHerr on 03/20/2008 01:02:00

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/20/2008:  01:26:24


quote:
Originally posted by RyanHerr

I'm looking forward to trying out these adventurous tabs.

In the tab book for "Solo Banjo Works" Tony Trischka gives tab for an unrecorded slow variation of June Apple that uses pinches/double stops. It's basically this eerie beautiful descending harmony line underneath the melody.

-Ryan.



I have something like that in manuscript, having organised and alphabetised and hole-punched Tony's manuscripts up through about 1991. Tony is great for quirky double-stop harmonies. I seem to recall having about three different versions of June Apple, one with some very interesting harmonies.

Love that 'Rights of Man' Don. David Bromberg plays a mean version of it on guitar, which also translates to banjo.

Happy pickin',

Tom

http://www.tomhanway.com

salvatone - Posted - 03/20/2008:  10:39:10


Greg Liszt posted some suggestions in a recent topic about four finger picking and how it enables this tecnique. He even posted a couple of short tab examples.

I have been thinking of adding another fingerpick a lot. Maybe if I were getting younger instead of older.

Salvatone

Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/20/2008:  16:58:44


Thanks for all replies, I cannot wait to study them. Unfortunately I am computerless and banjoless for next four days due to trip to Paris.
Salvatone, four finger picking is not for me, as I need bare ring finger for downbrushes.

Mirek

http://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo

Mirek Patek - Posted - 07/12/2008:  09:09:04


Here is another idea for pinches in eighths:

1) Start with TITITITI on 4th and 3rd string, while holding 5th fret of D string both notes are G, which enables your ear to check that the flow of notes is smooth.


d----------------|---------------|---------------|-
B----------------|---------------|---------------|-
G---0---0---0---0|--0---0---0---0|--0---0---0---0|-etc.
D-5---5---5---5--|5---5---5---5--|5---5---5---5--|-
g----------------|---------------|---------------|-
  T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I

2) Then add middle finger on d string on various places in the measure (not using it on two successive eight notes). E.g. in the first measure is M on the beats, in the second measure M creates syncopation of forward roll, the third measure sounds like FMB roll. (To speed the learning process of these syncopated measures you can try to learn them by half-measures.)

d-0---0---0---0--|0-----0-----0--|0---0-----0----|-
B----------------|---------------|---------------|-
G---0---0---0---0|--0---0---0---0|--0---0---0---0|-etc.
D-5---5---5---5--|5---5---5---5--|5---5---5---5--|-
g----------------|---------------|---------------|-
  M   M   M   M   M     M     M   M   M     M
  T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I

3) After practicing various rhythm patterns of middle finger, switch it also to B string. Finally play some melody by middle finger on B and d strings. Of course you can depart also from the flow of G notes to some chords.

Mirek

http://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo

the blood - Posted - 07/12/2008:  10:27:15


I started banjo pretty recently having played a lot of fingerstyle guitar. For the guitar, I settled on using acylic nails a while back and have been using them for banjo without a problem, really.

One thing I noticed, though, is the availability of an extra finger and the absence of any tab or techniques that make use of it. There's some great sounds on guitar that come from using a T-I-MR kind of roll, striking the ring and middle strings together. You get a nice syncopation with it since it tends to put emphasis on the off-beat.

I didn't reallize until I read this thread how infrequent double stops were in banjo playing...JY



mikebanjo - Posted - 07/12/2008:  10:52:22


"I have been thinking of adding another fingerpick a lot. Maybe if I were getting younger instead of older." -Salvatone

Hey, I'm 65 and I added a fingerpick to my ring finger about a year ago. It slows my bluegrass picking down a bit but makes other things a lot easier, including four-note chords. If Earl had started with three fingers and a thumb picks, we'd all be playing that way. Give it a shot, but stay with it a while; it don't come easy.


Mirek Patek - Posted - 07/12/2008:  11:56:04


As I stated above, I need bare ring finger for downbrushes, so I do not use fingerpick on ring finger.

Here are some topics which explore the downbrushes by bare ring fingernail:

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=109325

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...PIC_ID=75755

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=113696

Mirek

http://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo

Mirek Patek - Posted - 07/14/2008:  01:05:23


Of course you can make the TITITITI drone on single string only. Here is the example of 3-3-2 rhythm of middle finger (second measure above) on various long strings:

d-0-----0-----0--|---------------|---------------|-
B----------------|0-----0-----0--|---------------|-
G----------------|---------------|0-----0-----0--|-
D-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0|0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0|0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0|-
g----------------|---------------|---------------|-
  M     M     M   M     M     M   M     M     M
  T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I

d-0-----0-----0--|0-----0-----0--|---------------|-
B-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0|---------------|0-----0-----0--|-
G----------------|0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0|0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0|-
D----------------|---------------|---------------|-
g----------------|---------------|---------------|-
  M     M     M   M     M     M   M     M     M
  T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I
This can be both finger-stretching and ear-training exercise if you play some doublestops of major, minor or modal scales - e.g. thirds or tenths discussed in the topic
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=110235

Mirek

http://www.geocities.com/patekstylebanjo



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